Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic is moving away from those wobbly sprung belt-drive turntables like the ARs, Linn Sondeks, Thorens and such. I am seeing that direct drive or the idler drive tables may be more stable and do not require all the tweaking (as opposed to tuning). I remember how a friend of mine spent most of his life attempting to set up his Linn LP12. It was good when just set up but less than a week and you felt something go off. Also just a little move like lifting the LP12 off the stand or adjusting the position was enough to make you start the tweaking again. If you had the table set up by an expert then transported it home by car, then I am told you wasted the time and money.

In this audio hobby so much talk round the superiority of belt drive/spring suspended tables may have been just the work of marketing and publicity by manufacturers working with some magazines. Remembering that in places like Japan, the fad never took hold the way it did in some markets in the West.

I hung out with the belt drive +3-spring fraternity and cringe now when I think of the arrogance we displayed when we rubbished the Garrards, Technics, Denons, Lencos and any table that was not belt-drive and sprung.

Today, Sonic knows better and sees that the stability of the direct drive and idler drive TTs are possibly an easier design to optimize and the lack of wobbliness makes for better music which the soft sprung devices just veil off.

And Sonic remembers the Decca Gold cartridge. I have heard this in an LP12 with a Decca arm (the one with magnets in the pillar to float the arm and for antiskate). There was fabulous transient response from the Decca but also severe mistracking and distortion at the inner grooves. Record noise was also a problem. I don’t know how the cartridge was aligned but listening was a tense affair with the session giving instances of realism and beauty interspersed with anticipation of next loud tick and pop. This combination was one of those that every flaw was laid at the feet of “set up”.

Compared to this digital is a boon. Plug and play and no worried about forgetting to lift the stylus at the end of a record side.

With Sonic’s Audio Technica AT LP120, the sound with the Shure M97xE has been remarkably stable. With reasonably (not perfectly) clean SP and LPs the noise is not distracting, nice silent LPs and SP noise only in the background not getting in the way of the musick. And the treble of the Shure (LP and EPs) and the Stanton (SPs) is not rolled off to attenuate the ticks and pops.

Funnily enough, when comparing analog and digital, the difference Sonic hears is on LPs the girth and warmth is natural though the frequency response may be uneven.
With digital, the frequency response is flatter and more extended in the bass but the girth and warmth sounds like it was shaped by a graphic equalizer. So it sounds artificial. On their own, each sounds acceptable and the tune delivers musical enjoyment in this way but if you compare and listen to the two formats at roughly the same playback level the musicality tips strongly in favour of analog. Sonic sees that today there is a revival of analog but beware. Many discs are recorded in digital, mixed in digital then converted into analog and cut that way. That even these sound better than their CD versions makes me wonder if LPs are a happy accident of all the right colourations and flaws working together.

Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

Here’s the tuning update of what Sonic did on the analog side of things.



You see that I am using a rubber mat. How I arrived at this went like so – from all my Linnie friends I was told that thin felt mats were best. And for a long time accepted it as the truth. I noticed too that people I knew who were into Garrards and Technics disagreed. Anyway while I was not running analog it didn’t matter.  When I got the Audio Technica AT LP120, I noticed that the mat supplied was felt and with it on the platter, tapping the side of the light platter meant it rang like a bell.  Moreover the felt slipped (of course it did, it was a slip mat for a DJ table!), so I learnt from the audiophiles online to use three small double sided thin tape and stuck the mat to the platter.  This worked nicely especially with SP playback tracking at 5 gms.

But the ringing troubled me. So Sonic tried a rubber mat once and it was bad – thin bass and a sour colouration – so I gave up for a while.  Then I heard good tales about a rubber mat and a cork one.  The cork didn’t fit the platter but the rubber one did.  It silenced the ring and sounded really nice – deeper bass and a sureness in playback.



The Shure M97xE is a good cartridge for its price.  I track it at 1.25 gms without the damping brush engaged.  Things sound better this way but if the records are warped, I increase the tracking to 1.6 gms and use the brush.  The brush absorbs 0.25 gms so my net down force is 1.35 gms which works for the couple of warped records I obtained.  Sadly one of them is a Sheffield Labs direct cut.  I was surprised how light and thin the vinyl Sheffield used compared to the Deccas, Archiv and EMIs I have. Disappointing given that this was an audiophile label.  No wonder it warped.



Here you see the head for SP playback.  Stanton 500 with a 5217 tracking at 5 gms. Pretty good but may try a Shure M78S or the Ortofon 2M 78.



This is how the phono stage has been tuned.

It sits on three Harmonic Feet separated by MW squares.  I have only two AAB1x1 cones (solid and bell) in my closet so could not use them for support.  I tried them with a spare Harmonic Foot as the third support.  Weird metallic sound.

For top tuning I used a resitone rod but though Sonic thought while it was better than no top tuning, the sound was slightly dark.  I had some unplated ¼ inch rods from Michael which were used for the FS DecoTunes bases (I stack so two bases are not required).

So I took one of the rods, sharpened it and cut it to length.  It spikes onto the PCB via a MW sliver.  There is a Harmonic Spring connecting to the upper shelf.

The 12AX7s are PSVanes – these Chinese tubes might be the Mullards of tomorrow.  They are harmonically rich and quite a bit better than the TJ Full Music tubes that you can see to the side.  Extended bass, sweet treble with the dark tube mushiness that is sometimes accompanies the older NOS brands while none of the “modern tube sound” which is harder and bright to suit modern tastes.

Very enjoyable.  

Michael – your views on how I can tune the rear of my room.  I can apply RT Squares and maybe a couple DecoTunes (FS are a possibility) so let me know what you recommend I try.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

Think it is enough for now on Sonic's analog system. I am moving next to act on Michael's advice about the Bookcase Wall and to build up the pressure zone in that part (arguably the important part) of my room.

For sure I had a less than satisfactory experience with moving the wall last time but when I compare notes and pictures of the Then and Now, the room has undergone big changes in the Tune, everything is in a different place, there is no subwoofer and there are Tuning devices now that weren't there before.

Only logical thing to do -- move the Bookcase Wall forward.

So Sonic did. Not by much, about 4 inches closer to the speakers. My listening chair is in the same spot so now Sonic got a large wall closer to my head by 4 inches.

The first effect was a mega-jumble. Everything sounded upturned, detuned, strange. The bass uneven. Not what I expected but unsurprising. Sonic has got to resist the urge to go back or make multiple changes one on top of the other. Rather just play CDs on repeat (not through the day) but several times through over the next few evenings and see what happens.

Sonic

"Let me have your views on how I can tune my Bookcase Wall from what you see in the pix I posted."

Hi Sonic

I would need to see what is in the bookcases to do that.

"The first effect was a mega-jumble. Everything sounded upturned, detuned, strange. The bass uneven. Not what I expected but unsurprising. Sonic has got to resist the urge to go back or make multiple changes one on top of the other. Rather just play CDs on repeat (not through the day) but several times through over the next few evenings and see what happens. "

What you are hearing of course is that everything has changed, not only the bookcase but every pressure zone and tweak. Go back to your basic tune and start fresh until you hear more than you ever have then think about how to tune it in.

Your old tuning was to fix problems, but as you open up the door to more sound you have to rethink the space behind you as well as the pressure in front. Hunt for big movements like tons of bass build up and how you can use it. Hint: as you hear bass increase also notice the top end open up. Don't try to fix the bass until you hear the rest of the scale increase as well. Your floorstanders will move as well as your speakers and racks. You are creating new not used before zones (smaller zones becoming bigger) and those zones will need to be voiced.

Hi Michael

Glad you are commenting. I just finished a listening and this is what the sound is like after 4 days of CDs on repeat for fairly long periods.

The frequency response is like a Loch Ness Monster!

Wavy. Steely top, bass singers' low notes are overwhelming but with a nasal/piercing higher range. Bass guitar has some notes big and room shaking and the next note two frets lower or higher on the same string disappears. The deep notes appear rolled off 60hz and below). The overall sound is very in my face and feels like too many bright lights in the room are being switched on. Fatiguing and weird.

I was expecting better than this after all that settling.

Is there hope or is this a sign to just give up?

You said go back to basic tune. What's that....?

I am asking because Sonic has gone through down moments like this (remember my first use of the Shutters from Michael?). But it take a lot of guidance from the man to get back on track and play musick again.

Michael -- what is the next step? Apart from giving up....

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Good description!

Sounds like you have moved yourself to another area of a pressure zone and some of the dampening you have done is showing itself. Some of the things you have tuned in need to be undone. The setup before was being tuned to that particular place and now the system is out of that space.

One thing this tells one is that your room was not tuned to be overall tuned but more specifically tuned for your listening area. This is not a bad thing just a real thing.

let me explain

You know how I turn my room a bunch of different ways? Well this is so I can hear what the room can do when I'm playing with the size and shape of the zones. Sometimes the sound gets wide, sometimes deep. Sometimes full, sometimes thin. When you explained your sound just now the first thing that popped into my mind believe it or not was, "How full are those book cases behind sonic"? We know your walls are hard but now we have to see what the other things in the room are sounding like.

Your words told me that there are still too many hard (non-wood) surfaces in the room. Do you want to dampen them or do you want to be bringing more of a wood sound into things? In other words the hard sound is a function of the walls/pressure zone relationship. Your pressure zones are needing and wanting flavor and balance. Sounds simple but it's a facts finding mission every time esspecially with hard walls or materials.

This is one of the biggest things in audio reproduction to think about. Slabs, hard walls, heavy cabinets, heavy parts and anything that throws the signal back in a concentrated way in any area with the frequency responces tend to gather. The bass doesn't bother me at all cause have the big waves able to get big is a good thing. What you don't want is those big waves to disappear. That's when you can get into trouble.

When high frequencies get hard that always means blockage or being in the wrong part of a zone, or as I said the wall behind you is not going low enough. I know sounds like a drag to have book shelfs behind you that can't hold books, but I'm just saying what is happening.

In my room except for the floor I have free rein over my tones, but that one hard surfaces makes a mess out of my tonality being able to reproduce in multible areas of the room without work. In your case all of your surfaces (minus the flex in your floor) are hard. This means since you don't have those tones by nature in the walls that you have to stimulate them.

yes, you can give up and go back or your can see what the rest of the room has to say to your music

back to my room again

I can pretty much now start my room at the very front (chair very close to the front wall with lots of space behind the SAM) or I can move myself closer to the back wall with lots of space between the listening chair and the front wall. The advantage of being further away is that that there is so much space to play with. The problem when doing this is things in the music come up missing because of the hard surface (the floor). When I'm closer to the front wall with the SAM pulled up behind me there is much more info without missing parts but they have to be tuned in so that the balance happens (one) and (two) I get the space I want.

In my room because I have spent time balancing the over all room the sound when messed up can get back into focus with a little brain power thinking about where and which tune needs to be tuned. This means the reshaping of my basic pillow setup. The good news is it doesn't take but I couple of moves and the affects of tune movement speaks loud and clear. In no time I have the new shape of the zones falling into place.

back to your room

The unbalance your hearing is simply the pressure zones being out of balance now with your new ear/speaker/room relationship and some blockage you may have with your parts. The good news is that this can be fixed by rethinking your setup just like you first did when you got it to the place it was at it's best.

the choice

The choice is, was it good enough before or do you want to get more? The music is all there to be had and your room can deliver this on many levels but have you found that golden spot?

Going back to the basic is when I go back to a place in my setup using one reference that is trusted and making the system simple enough to give me my simple cues. For example Abbey Road or Ziggy or something that tells me where my setup is at for that particular reference.

Unless we know our systems backward and forward using a new or undiscovered reference to tune with will ussually lead us on a goose chase.

The same goes for equipment or changes. Sometimes we make changes along the way and accept them as being a reference but they really aren't. For example your addition of the TT. That space that it is taking up changes everything that you have tuned before it came into the room so you can't say your going back to basic. This goes for any other change you have made. Go back to a basic reference and see how it is going and compare the old sound with the new and stay with that basic setup and source till you know what changes you really have.

When tweaking it's easy to forget that every recording has it's own set of rules and sometimes we get stuck in what the recording is trying to say and not the system.

Hi Michael

Looks like Sonic did a kind of maneuver -- I said "this forward wall thing is energizing pressure zones which are beyond this novice to fight....the Tune Instinct is not strong enough in Sonic". But perhaps I can test and activate other Zones and get what I am looking for by another route.

So....the Bookcase Wall is moved back 4 inches to its original place.

Then I moved the loudspeakers forward (closer) towards the listening spot. Another set of PZs were engaged.

I heard more a lot volume for a given preamp setting, there is more bass but it is less Loch Ness monster like and extends lower slightly, but cello details are good....bass singers are more like real, still a bit exaggerated, but their nasality is reduced. The treble is not as hard. Images are big, slightly bigger than life...or I could have been too used to small imaging.

Downsides -- get too close to the wall and images pull into the loudspeakers and I am like listening to two speakers playing two different pieces of music. At the right spot, the fill is OK across the arc of the speakers. Slight centre image recession but not too bad.

Interestingly, on particular sections of music in some recordings, the instruments are huge and play like a rich curtain right across the room and over my head to just behind. This is nice. Sonic has heard this in live musick.

All at moderate volumes.

The amount of movement is about 9 inches towards my chair, 2 inches a side closer inward and toe-in reduced slightly from earlier. The position of the speakers are now exactly at the half point of the length of the room.

I think I could again hear my Tune Instinct after nearly a week of frustrating confusion. If this is so, Sonic might be able to get musick out of this placement.

Next up, it is system settling thru tonight and I will start to revisit the use of or how I placed the Tune devices after going thru my notes to see what problems I was trying to fix.

What do you think, Michael? Any steps you advise me to take?

Sonic

Yes, explore how the corners of the room are loading by adjusting the size of the pressure zones in each corner. As you change the placement of anything the rest of the room changes it's pressure build ups as well. And explore those book cases. There's a lot more sound in those cases than you think.

 

What I would have done is go even 4" more forward and kept doing it till a new order of zones were formed and played with the sound of what is in the bookcase which has got to make huge sonic differences, but I do understand the need to get back to comfort.

I don't think you are so much the novice as you say, but it is a big step to reshape everything in order to gain that next level of content.

One of the reasons I show only certain pictures of my setups is because I'm all over the place with what I am doing with zones and how I like to corner them till they give up the sound. Then I back off and try to blend them in with what I learn from the next zone I squeeze or expand. It's like having a bunch of cups around the room and you are filling and emptying them as if you are needing to keep a scale or several scales in balance.

Maybe you should take me a picture or two of the bookcases from the other side.

Had a girlfriend over a few nights ago to watch a movie in my writing room. Girls (oh brother), every time they visit it's like needing to tie their hands cause they don't understand that everything makes a difference and they see the things I do as being messy. They are constantly wanting to move or throw away something that I have sitting there for sound.

I have bookcases as well off to the side and how I fill those cases and what is around them makes a ton of difference. We must keep in mind that sound travels around that case and changes the sound on the other side (the side your listening to). Partially covering the back side or making little traps on the backside can make huge differences on what you hear where your ears are on the listening side. Also keep in mind that if you are taking things in and out of those cases on a regular basis you could be changing tons and not knowing why those changes are happening.

here's what I see from here

I'm a little surprised that with adding that much size to the bookcases that the cases are wanting to stay in the same place front to back in the room. My mind is saying thay are off a little, but I'm not sitting in your seat.



The top one is what you have and the bottom is what I'm feeling.

My gutt is telling me that the back area is being squeezed and if given space, the back wall could be tuned with wood and the bookcase could get tuned along with this back space and the speakers would end up working less hard.



I can see that the closer the bookcase is moved to the back wall it replaces the sound of the wall, but if the back wall was tuned with wood you could use the back wall and the bookcase as a very nice tuning device. I believe the unbalance you heard the last few days was the back wall making itself known again after drawing this. You have this really cool area going on behind you but I'm not sure your giving it a chance.

Greetings Michael

Where my Bookcase Wall is now (original placement) in relation to the dimensions of the room is similar to the ratio of the Wood Room/Listening Box you built for Bill333. In that case, from what you told me, the length is 20% longer than the width.

Given my 14 ft wide room, where the wall is now, it is exactly (no exaggeration) at +20% of the width. If I move the Bookcase Wall forward 4 inches or 8 inches as you suggest, I am getting real close to a square and the sharp bass peaks I heard are the sort of things a square room gives.

It will be an effort to get the speakers back to where they were then move the wall forward. Right now, I got the speakers spot on at the 1/2 way point of the room length. They were previously about 3 inches off.

Is the method Sonic is attempting with the Bookcase Wall in the old position, speakers forward and testing the contributing and adjusting each component a dead end?

I can unload the bookcases a bit more and pictures I can send over of what the back of the bookcases look like. Why don't I do that and you can tell me what else can be done.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Your room and Bill's room are apples and oranges so I wouldn't try to mimic it too much. The walls are so different that the sound coming off of them can't be put in the same boat. Your room is actually a lot more like mine than Bill's. You have a longer super structure with bookcases inside.

When looking at a room (for me) I'm looking at what the listener is saying . This starts to paint a picture in my head of the sound. When you moved the wall a little forward and described this my mind went to a bunch of things that happened. It told me a lot about your pressure zones and your center node. It's obvious that the 4" was not enough to get you into the next place of balance but how far up will that happen?

I don't buy into the square room thing. I've had a few of them and they sounded fine. A square room is only a square room untill you put a piece of furniture in it. People get pretty screwy about stuff like that as if a sound wave travels through furniture or other objects. However you having a room with hard walls will hang on to nodes a lot more than a room that flexes. I've heard whole frequency ranges vanish in hard rooms and have sat there scratching my head wondering where they were hiding   . Many times they are locked up in such a tiny band that they didn't appear until I found a magic spot in the room.

Let's just put it this way. If you head down the other path I'm with you and if you go back to safty I'm there too.

Let me know what you hear from the book case exploring.

Hi Michael

It is back to safety for Sonic but with the speakers moved forward and me doing a recheck of all the recent Tunes. Given the extent of the boom and sound confusion I heard with the Bookcase Wall advanced just 4 inches, I know what I am in for. And when Michael says the Bookcase Wall should be moved further forward like 8 inches, Sonic knows what happens there too.

I once tried the Bookcase Wall forward by 1 foot sometime ago and the BOOM was a horror. Male voices were grotesque, the bass rolls off after the boom and bass instruments were harmonically out of shape. I could not take it and ran for my life.
Michael thinks that this is my starting point or I have to move my Bookcase Wall even further forward, whatever the case, Sonic knows that going this way I will be in for two or more months of very discombobulated sound.

There may be upsides to the Tune in the end but the ordeal…..and my room will look very different, even likely the Bookcase Wall will be so far forward that I am sitting at the geometric centre of the room and the room ahead of the Bookcase Wall will be effectively a long-wall set up.

It takes a lot of psychological preparation for such a step…..with no idea if success is certain in a way Sonic will want for the musick I like.

More in the days ahead of my slight advance and Tune check.

Sonic

Greetings Michael and Zonees

It does look like Michael has amazing Tune Insight when he remarked that some of my tunes were done to fix problems. And a characteristic of Sonic maybe that once I find a groove to solve a problem like BOO! I then charge ahead and keep going forgetting that each tune needs to settle so I end up with a jumble of effects after a few weeks even if the Target Problem is fixed.

So I am now in a slightly different speaker position and the Bookcase Wall back where it was. Sound is more projected but I need to bring up the Cello projection range.

There is blockage somewhere…likely in more than one place….something points to the FS-PZCs that were pulled out from the two front corners by 2 1/2 feet to contain part of the BOO! so the FS-PZCs go back into the corners and the cello projection range is starting to come back, yet the BOO! is no worse.

I must go slow though I can hear there are more parts that need to shift around (or be undone) before the musical balance/projection that I heard in a live solo ensemble performance is approached.

There are more blockages in the system and the move of the FS-PZCs helped but there are more things around that are blocking the expansion of harmonics in the upper bass range. Sonic is persevering.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

Sonic has found a way to change/improve the tonal balance of my system to get harmonically rich mids and upper bass along with a sweeter treble.

Two questions Zonees may have for Sonic – How? and Why?

Settling is progressing building on what material I used to start the tonal shift building on Sonic unwinding a Tune or two that were used to solve problems with the BOO! problem I was wrestling with.

What: The material came from Michael. And it is balsa.

As to the Why – a slightly long story but I will get into it in more detail along with where I am using the material, which is now under test and settling.

In the meantime, you may know that Sonic likes reading audio blogs. There are wonderful Japanese audio blogs with some really inventive ideas and courage to experiment sometimes in wacky ways. With google translate I can get an idea in English of what they are saying in their native language. Now google translate gives some odd results and some words and idioms and analogies are untranslatable. For instance what we call “musical” in English may be called “calm” in another language.
So it has turned into a mental expansion and meditative exercise (!) for Sonic to find these blogs, collect the pictures of the equipment – one I am reading is someone who has apparently hand made his own 16” tonearm but argues for no offset for the cartridge in the headshell! -- I then pull the google translated text and read it over slowly and see what they mean on a literal level and at a more philosophical level, along the way seeing how ideas expressed cross divides like these. Some of the translation is easy to understand, some funny but I have started to get the philosophy and am finding this a valuable addition to my comprehension of audio.

By way of example here is one:

Source: http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~yosh/craft.htm

Significance of self-made audio

Significance of making your own is different in the old days and now. Thing is not popular, why old said he has a self-made kit to open a television or VCR that is because it is expensive. This [last or real reason to make three you are unhappy with the product of 2) manufacturers want to make things that do not have: 1) others) because I want to make now? I enter the cocoa disease. ]

The rather expensive there is no reason to beat the manufacturer with an expensive manufacturing equipment and instruments, and by collecting the parts on their own, because there is no real volume efficiency, the amplifier. There is no necessity to amplifier own in terms of specs, but the application 2 can that 1) I aimed) and 3) the circuit can be omitted unnecessary functions since we know, this is not no use to make it into something new. I think those who spend money on software may be quick than fits into the self-made, but that it is not wasted never (fail including) the knowledge gained in self-made. At least, self-made is remodeling freedom, and dissatisfaction cause of so evident, that we get a new following the manufacturer High product will not.

If you've got what firm even box, unit is replaced in the baffle exchange, speakers can enjoy for many years to come. I also have tried the full range Onkyo FR-12A, Diatone P-610, Altec 405A, Phillips AD5061/M8, of 10 ~ 16cm FE103, Coral 6F-60, LCC LC-12S etc. caliber Fostex. I think a full range of small diameter and is best in terms of the density of. Sounds to use as drone cone 20cm Woofer of Fostex, have mounted a DDDS5II of Alpine now. LC-12S is sound in one of the few folded edge is now among them misjudgment of poor distant good. small diameter about feel the freshness of the sound or [ear]? Aside: the bass does not go out sound rang naked speaker but clear sound is. Person cabinet to increase the resonance reflective surface also not really good? There is plenty of things you want to experiment ... After creating the (open-back enclosure) ear horn stood in the back of the chair unit of 7cm. I remember the box man at the thought of the room and speaker.

Now, would not people who are interested in mechanisms of television to enjoy the TV, but some sort of self-made or will not be required to enjoy the audio? Although I think the device may be any If you're listen to music purely course.

Audio equipment as a hobby
Or Spec or Brand or Vintage?

It is very similar to the camera collection. Contemporary camera Classic Camera is a wooden assembly dark box, brand-name, the Nikon / Canon / Minolta or the like of eight Sseru Blood - camera mechanism which also captured the [automated] actually much larger is towards the progress of the film only (sensitivity But towards the media or would not than is ahead of equipment more than 100 times) as well. audio?

Monomania It's concerned a specific format (such as SP / LP / CD) is (paranoid) itself.
Love the product "collection" is a fetish thing. Loving self-made It is self-love! ?

Deep emotion
I think even if I look back eh yourself, that it is a thing that a side trip and waste a lot.

Of DA30 single eggplant tube [Weight monsters! Disease that I want to make you look at the speaker us / article was Ascension to open deck / amplifier adjustment of 2 tiger 38] amplifier / geek affectation.

You can ask to return the study of these charges if, when you are starting a new audio? There are times when you think that stupid and. However, it is likely to be the same again as it were back results.

There is a house is like, built it to be done the audio. Ikeda and Kay, who wrote the "sunset glow of sound" was seeing his long audio Tilt the Shindai.

Memories of the old concert
Any memories is of a concert of the lid old before. I do not go to a concert to be stay-at-home and just record recently. Are you going well (many of discovery still interesting) is just something like a presentation of children nearby.

There was a concert of (famous piano player 4th Piano Concerto of Beethoven by Furtwangler, conductor) Conrad Hansen, who was said to be a great master of the last Germany: ('88 maybe) at Hibiyakokaido. Pain is intense and interior with patina is public hall of around 80, to get invited to a place like this in a state in which the separation of the overlay of the chair stands out it was something I thought miserably while other people's affairs. I think David Bund error Dances of certain Schuman said it was main. I was getting a bouquet from Japanese women who have ever learned to him at the end of the concert. It was playing a solid skeleton said to be as old appearance.

It seems to have passed away in 2002 at the 1906 birth.

I have witnessed the demonstration of Jochum, who led the Amsterdam Concertgebouw: at Tokyo Bunka Kaikan September 16, 1986. I went in I think lowbrow manner does not look to be miss this in his last years. I was a command to sit because it is barely able to walk with a cane already. Track was "No. 7 Bruckner / Symphony" and "death of love and Isolde Wagner / Tristan, Prelude and". More of Tristan has impressive than No. 7. I so hate in concert, and to Begging with applause at length, and up the seat track immediately when you are done. I was made to feel like were harmed Looking at the monitor outside encore is begin after it came out always, but I met the Ashkenazi and his wife soon as I came out of the Horu you came across

Fortunately this time was. Ashkenazy was skinny small in stature as a couple of flea. Jochum had to do things like guardian role of Ashkenazi who started the command in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw at the time that you mention it. It I had come to see the direction of sensei.

It was shocking when I heard in the seat of the right front of the stage Berlioz Maazel the "Symphonie Fantastique". There is only the seat so I bought a ticket without also book last-minute, but the eyes ears filled with the sound of rumbling double bass, Nan'nosono and melody line, was caught in the vortex of roaring. It was not intended to hear satisfactorily it is not a position of the ear position higher than the stage.

Experience of similar failure was a table against the wall at the back of the third floor. The sound will not hear clearly as Mowanmowan reflection from the back is too strong. Seat blessed acoustically in its own way seems to have been selected seats high pricewise also. According to the acoustics, almost the same volume is likely to be obtained in any seat directivity is weakened in the seat of ordinary concert hall, directivity is likely to increase in the speaker of the narrow room. Moreover, instruments and voice has originally the directivity of the different frequency bands, respectively, and is likely not something that can be reproduced in the existing speaker. By adjusting the recording and after setting the recording microphone, or do they can be adjusted to the optimum directivity of when playing the speaker of the general?

Acoustics Publications by Instrument Maker Institute of Germany I found. But instead of making a musical instrument hunch artisan, you can see well that the instrument has been produced on the basis of acoustics. However, I think in a different story, that it might be just left to become famed as a result rare excellent article in the past or be born with only acoustic knowledge. Http://www.ifm-zwota.de/: site Instrument Maker Institute of the Technical University of Dresden included

Hey, Sonic,

Have you ever heard of or tried this configuration?

Rooze speaker setup by ozonerman, on Flickr

A person by the name of Rooze posted the following back in 2005 in the Audio Asylum Planar Speaker section under the heading of SOUND WITHOUT A LOUDSPEAKER:

I know, I'm over the edge, bats in the belfray, but here goes.

Earlier today I finally discovered how to position a set of dipoles to get the best out of them. I have carpet burns from 18 months of humping my Maggie 3.6's around the living room, but today it finally all fell into place.
What you do is this. Get the speakers well off the front wall, in my case about 9'. Fire them towards a reflective back wall with some toe-in. Then, take your listening chair and sit behind the speakers, about 5 feet back.
What you'll hear is a sound emerging from a space that does not have a loudspeaker in the space. The sound is reflected off the back wall and a stage is formed in the room against the backwall that comes into the room about 12'. Again, there is no loudspeaker in the part of the room where the soundstage is developed, so the word 'transparent' takes on a whole new meaning. The sound is so natural and effortless that it is impossible to resume the 'normal' listening position after the experience.
One might think that sitting so close to the actual source of the sound, you would hear the speaker itself, but you don't, just the sound reflected off the opposite wall.
The soundstage has no boundaries, it is huge. There's a live performance in my living room and I feel as though I could stand up and walk around the performers. Words like 'imaging' don't even apply. It's just all there, where it should be.
It is sound coming from a space without a loudspeaker, and it's just blown my mind.

I'm going to give this a try. This fella Rooze has a pretty large room, maybe even bigger than yours (he mentions a length of 28 feet in one post, either on Audio Asylum or Audiogon). He did specifically mention in another post that the stage appears to be coming from the front wall. That doesn't sound so great, but others who have tried this method (and by method, I mean merely turning the speakers until all one can see from the listening chair are the edges), have liked the results. There's even some mention of this so-called "Rooze placement" on Audio Circle. You can do a Google serach for "Rooze speaker placement" to read more.

Hi Robert

Yes the Rooze setting works in a way. A good audio buddy of Sonic gave it a try several years ago with his MG 2As. It worked quite well in his conventional (curtains, normal set of furniture, coffee table etc).

The soundstage was big but rather diffuse in that room given that the panels were firing into a curtained surface. It was musical and I am sure it would have got better had we got down to work on it but this friend kept feeling that this was a departure from what Winey and co intended being a bit of a sticking by the book fellow.

The more he looked at the panels edge on, the more it disturbed him. So in the end, he went back to a normal placement. I think an opportunity was missed.

To me the imaging was big and diffuse but that could be due to many things. With the Tune it may work. Let us all know how you fare.

Sonic has the MG1.5QRs on the Myestands with the backbrace and all that so it may be intrusive visually instead of a thin panel edge on. But let's see...

Balsa is working, now in Day 3 of settling. Something is telling me a small movement of the speakers may be needed to get more out of the balsa. Again, must resist and go slow.

Michael -- what do you think? And I noticed in your suggestion that if I moved my
Bookcase Wall forward I could put wood behind them. Why behind the wall? If I wanted to use wood to harmonise the room should they not be in front where the speakers and the PZs they are directly activating are?

Sonic

"Settling is progressing building on what material I used to start the tonal shift building on Sonic unwinding a Tune or two that were used to solve problems with the BOO! problem I was wrestling with.

What: The material came from Michael. And it is balsa.

As to the Why – a slightly long story but I will get into it in more detail along with where I am using the material, which is now under test and settling."

I'm glad to see balsa brought back into the picture. After hearing back from folks with their results with balsa years ago when I started pushing it I backed away from recommending it much even though I personally feel used correctly and in the right places it has it's place.

Balsa has the biggest fibers of any of the wood I use and therefore is the wood that has the potential of soaking up the most moisture. Here in the desert my results were different from those I heard from people giving me feedback. For me it is still a good listening tool.

"Michael -- what do you think? And I noticed in your suggestion that if I moved my
Bookcase Wall forward I could put wood behind them. Why behind the wall? If I wanted to use wood to harmonise the room should they not be in front where the speakers and the PZs they are directly activating are?"

Hi Sonic

I don't look at rooms so much as the speaker area, even though that is of course where the speakers are setting. To me the whole room is the speaker and many times we should be looking at the sound of our rooms as pressure creating zones (volume controls of particular frequencies and wave movements). This may sound weird but popped into my head. Picture the back of the room as the trunk of the car giving tonal support to the rest of the musics body. I think there's magic behind you that has not yet been tapped.

Hi Guys

Actually the "rooze Placement" is nothing new and in the mid 80's to mid 90's was a common playground for those of us who had panels.

The idea of placement on panals speakers to look "from the listening chair" like dynamic speakers was to be honest and little weird to me anyway.

I never pushed this placement as I thought to do this I should have an active pair myself, but have done it and have seen others go past the recommended "box setups" into some cool concepts.

However with my experiments in this area I started with an empty room and voiced it accordingly.

I beleave it's a deeper approach to energizing the room then the typical straight acoustical line of sight to ear, and can make the sound far more open and the room far more reactive and part of the "room as the speaker" view.

Hi Zonees

Things are coming together nicely but Sonic delayed my post for more time so as to be sure.

It turned out the speaker position that made the soundstage get into focus while yielding the most musical match with the balsa was just a couple of inches further towards the front wall from my original placement (before the latest Bookcase Wall saga) with the distance from the side walls and the slight toe in angles the same.

The first big advance with the balsa was to use a 2.5 inch x 2.5 inch x 0.25 inch square over the bearing of the CD player transport, then the metal down rod of the top tune canopy engages the balsa lightly. The increase in weight and projection in the upper bass was very good. Before this the down rod just touched the plastic cover of the bearing.

This piece of Balsa is the treated but not stained version from Mr Green.

Happily Sonic has a fair bit more balsa in the plain and cherry stained varieties from Michael and I am planning on several more places to apply them to improve the width and low end of my system.

When the balsa over CD transport tune started to settle, the rear width of the soundstage also started to expand and image beyond the walls a little but I am noticing it without the wishful thinking I displayed in earlier attempts and descriptions.

Sonic has realised an uncomfortable thing: I have been tuning my sound too much to classical - baroque, small ensemble, sometimes choral works and single instruments - and this has caused me tom miss a whole world of the deep bass. Not that it is not there, but not optimised. I heard an outdoor rock concert set up with stacked JBLs. It was being set up for a show that night (which Sonic didn't attend) but for the test, the crew played some CDs and I heard the low synths and low electric bass hitting me hard in the gut. It was too loud for me but Sonic understood....I left the place saying to myself "Sonic must be honest, my system no way can do that depth of low notes" on the occasional CCR and stuff I play.

So the quest is starting for a better low end (without a subwoofer of course) and far from the classical musick being worse for the tuning, it is even better in terms of spatiality. String quartets and quintets sound lovely.

Balsa and bass advances.....

Sonic

Hi Zonees

So as not to be cryptic, what Sonic will do next with the balsa is to use it under all equipment that is grounded via Harmonic Springs sitting on MW squares, replacing the MW. I will then move to things that are spiked but not including speakers and racks which are so heavy their spikes will go right through the soft balsa and into the wood floor which will cause big trouble for me.

Now that Sonic is in bass tuning direction, I am listening for the low end of all I hear and seeing where Sonic's system needs optimising. For instance, I was listening tonight to a cocktail lounge pianist playing easy listening standards. Unamplified of course.

I got some worthwhile ideas that Sonic can match in Tuning.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

Here is a sum up of what Sonic has done recently.

To uncorrect the steps I took to correct some room problems, this is what Sonic’s “concrete bunker – as Robert puts it” is reset to:



AND



This is what I did with the Sony Blu-ray player functioning as the CD (and occasionally SACD) player.  Notice the balsa piece and I am now using just one down rod of mild steel from Michael.



Now the Quicksilver Preamp – just Michael’s cherry finished balsa pieces under the Harmonic Springs supporting the preamp structure.



There is still more balsa pieces in my tune closet that I can use but this is how far Sonic has come and we need to move from the initial settling phase which proves the value of the Tune to the Long Term settling which can take up to 100 hours of music playing time which will prove the real value of the Tune that has been done.

The fullness and girth of the bass is now pretty good. Thing is when Sonic tried to top tune the QS-Pre with a soft Harmonic Spring and a mild steel down rod from Michael I found the inner clarity of the musick improved but the bass started to get over-tight and rolled off. So for now, I am running without the pre-amp being top tuned.

Very nice musick listening to Vivaldi’s Four Seasons (Hogwood/Academy of Ancient Music/l’Oiseau Lyre), Santoor Ragas by Shivkumar Sharma (santoor) and Zakir Hussein (tablas) and Beethoven’s 9th and 14th Quartets by the Tallich Quartet.  Sonic has also been playing a lot of analog – Telemann (Archive), Dowland (Archive), Glenn Miller Live at Carnegie Hall, Purcell Harpsichord Works (Archiv), J S Bach Well-Tempered Klavier (W Landowska/RCA).

CD replay is good but there is something more musical about analog, even played with Sonic’s budget system of the Shure M97xE, Audio Technica AT LP120 and tube-buffered phono stage.

Listening to musick is different from hearing sound. Sound is hearing a series of frequencies following one after another.  Musick is notes played intelligently with feel and skill by real human beings.

The CDs that Sonic plays is nice and listenable…nevertheless Sonic is revisiting LPs more and more, with SPs too, and finding that whatever the flaws of the old technology, vinyl (and shellac) analog is a wonderful carrier of realism and emotion that makes up real musick.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

While my pix get posted here is something of an update and stuff y'all may find a good read.

It is been days of listening to just analog  Heard some Pentangle, Big Joe Williams (The Legacy of the Blues Vol 6/Sonet), a Melodiya recording of the Ossipov Russian orchestra made up of folk instruments playing Russian and classical works....musical, entertaining and strange...and Haydn's 3 Orgelkonzerte on DG (Tramnitz/Bamberg Symphoniker/Albrecht)...

Very therapeutic (as Neil Young says).

Now something about headphones after some research by Sonic:

While Sonic is getting my system to develop girth and dense harmonics particularly in the bass, I have been expanding my understanding of how other audiophile friends think about sound/music and developing their systems.

I have a couple of audio acquaintances who are into headphones. One likes them for the detail and the change from loudspeakers, while the other needs to use them due to family considerations. From their thoughts and practices Sonic came up with some ideas too.

The thing is....I don’t like headphones. They are uncomfortable, the soundstage swings as Sonic’s head turns, the imaging is through my head or in some cases over the top of Sonic’s head....a bit like a Tune trick that Michael played on Bill333 where Mr Green tuned Led Zeppelin to have Robert Plant singing from above Bill333’s head.

OTOH, headphones give isolation and tremendous detail. They do have risks – you can play them too loud without knowing it and damage your hearing. A dropped stylus, a failing tube or a diaphragm ending its working life can also send the listener to the Hearing Aid Hut if you listen too loud.

This doesn’t mean Sonic doesn’t find the idea of headphones intriguing. I think that headphone listeners need Mr Green and his products. Think about it – if you have a CD player driving a preamp and amp, if you have a turntable and phono stage -- all of this are subject to the Tune Trilogy regardless of the output device.

CD players, step up devices and amplifiers need grounding and top tuning, screws cracked, cable ties cut. They need canopies, wood to create girth and width and the mains feed need tuning. Tuneable cables from Michael such as the Picasso work and even if there are no loudspeakers in the room (but round your head), his cables can be used for mains feeds and the wall electricity system tuned. And if you are using electrostatic headphones like the STAX, a lot of tuning can be done with the power supply box and any processor box that you have.

This is because the Tune optimises vibration transfer within and between components. The various tunes ground the system. All of this will have an effect on the output -- and this includes everything driving loudspeakers or headphones. The only thing is the use of headphones with enclosed circumaural earpieces may reduce a need to tune the room itself. Although one headphone listener from Japan suggested that we can listen to open back headphones facing a single mono cabinet to anchor the stage. Effectively this is a hybrid Headphones + Loudspeaker to give both the specificity of headphones plus the width and front focus using loudspeakers.

Sonic may not be surprised if platforms are necessary and cause audible changes for the better with all this gear even with headphones (for the equipment I mean…..buying a platform and putting your chair and sitting on it like a throne dias is too wild even for Sonic). So for those readers using headphones, this is something to consider.

Michael – your comments?

The audiophiles Sonic talks to have a Stax system with the Magnaplanar MGIIAs and another a Sennheiser plugged into a music server network system.

For those Zonees who are interested, here is an article on the Stax approach from John Buchanan writing in www.head-fi.org/t/485966/stax-srm-monitor-a-history-and-appreciation-of-diffuse-field-equalisation

"Headphone frequency response measurements, conducted with a microphone in front of the headphone driver, much as speaker measurements were conducted, observed that headphones with a measured flat frequency response did not sound as flat as would be expected from a speaker with identical measurements. Comparing the sound of a flat measured speaker with a flat measured headphone revealed extreme tonal differences that started off a whole lot of investigation into why they sounded different and how a headphone’s frequency response could be altered to make it sound like flat measured speakers. An experiment was set up as follows:

1. A loudspeaker playing a frequency sweep was recorded by a high quality, miniature microphone in one of two types of room – either an anechoic chamber or an approximation of an ordinary room (see later) – and the frequency response was charted.

2. The same microphone was inserted into a subject’s ear canal and the same speaker replayed frequency sweep was charted again.

3. It turned out there was quite a difference between the charted frequency response of the two recordings.

4. It was postulated that if the frequency response of the recording made by the microphone in the ear (see 2) could be altered by pre-equalization to ultimately match the shape of the frequency response of the recording of the same microphone when not in the ear (see 1), then replay of that in-ear microphone recording would sound the same as that of replay of the recording made by the same microphone in a room if that pre-equalization was applied.

5. This gave rise to a target measured frequency response for a headphone to sound like a flat measured speaker i.e. if the headphone had a measured frequency response that looked like the target response, it should sound flat when reproducing a recording that had been mixed with speakers in front of the mixer, and sound as if one was listening to speakers in front of him/her, rather than via headphones.

6. The concept of pre-equalization of headphones was thus born.

Pre-equalization could either be mechanical (i.e. the driver frequency response was manufactured to behave that way e.g. the AKG 240DF – not so easy) or electrical (which should be cheaper, easier and field-adjustable), and meant that although the headphones now had a frequency response that had been altered to something that looked decidedly non-flat when measured, it reproduced the sounds coming from a sound source with the same frequency response at the ear canal as if recording and replay over headphones had not been introduced into the chain i.e. the headphone replay should now sound the same as sitting in the room and listening to the speakers.

Two main theories of the correct pre-equalization curve were forwarded. The first, called free-field equalization, suggested that the above experiment be conducted in an anechoic chamber (like a field, free of reflective, absorptive and refractory surfaces).

So, to reiterate, a free field equalized headphone is designed to sound like the reproduction of speakers, as if a listener is sitting in an anechoic chamber. Although an anechoic chamber is more reproducible as a standard, it was argued that nobody listens in an anechoic chamber (and indeed, most listeners find even speaking in an anechoic chamber uncomfortable) and a reasonable approximation of a standard listening area be used to conduct the above experiments. This was called diffuse field equalization.

There are many things that alter sound between the release from the sound source and arrival at the ear canal. Reflections, diffraction and absorption from objects in the listening environment, reflection, diffraction and absorption by the head, hair and ears all contribute to alteration of sound before it reaches the ear canal. Diffuse field equalization, as mentioned before, is an attempt to make the replay of a recording on headphones sound like you are listening to the same recording through speakers in a non-anechoic room.

Experiments were also done so that headphone users were asked to equalize various sharply limited frequency bands’ playback on headphones until they had matched the loudness of the same playback through speakers and with headphones removed. A good correlation was obtained between this method and the probe microphone recording method. The direction of sound (from the front in a reverberant field) with speakers is far removed from actually injecting the sound directly into the ear canal. Naotake Hayashi (of Stax), pondering this problem, possibly because Stax couldn’t successfully mechanically create a diffuse field equalized headphone, and any electrical equalizer would have to be a custom unit, first decided to create a new headphone that coupled its own reproducible miniature room (complete with uneven diffractive, reflective and absorptive surfaces) called the Stax SR-Sigma Panoramic Earspeaker System. It had headphone drivers that fired from anterior to posterior instead of laterally into the ear canals. The sound was bounced off irregular mineral wool into the ear canals, creating a mechanical diffuse field room for each ear as well as having "speakers" that fired sound from the front, rather than straight into the canals. It was partially successful, but listeners either hate it or absolutely love it. Personally I love it, but they were inefficient headphones and they sounded quite rolled off at both ends of the frequency spectrum. They were also huge and very odd looking. Better drivers than the original Sigma drivers (which were the same as the later Lambda non-professional earspeakers) improve the frequency extremes, allowing the merit of the theory to finally shine through (e.g. the very rare Sigma/404 hybrid).

Stax later decided (around 1986 – 1987), instead, to bite the bullet and build 4 custom equalizers to electrically equalize their latest headphone range to provide individual target diffuse field responses for each of its various, then-current headphones (the ED-5 for the SR5 normal bias headphone, the ED-1 and SRM-Monitor for the Lambda Professional high bias phone and the ED-Signature for the high bias Lambda Signature). The headphones could then be less bulky than the Sigma and more fashionable (see my avatar for what the Sigma looked like – it definitely had a style only a mother could love).

Again, reactions to Stax engineers’ diffuse field equalized headphones literally polarized listeners into “hate it” or “love it” camps. I would guess that economically, this proved to be a dead end, and no further research into diffuse field equalization has ever been mentioned by Stax. Consequently, the rather rare equalization units sell for a premium on the used market these days.

As mentioned above, the four ED diffuse field equalizers were designed for three different Stax phones. The ED-5, ED-1 and ED-Signature were placed between the source and the headphone driver and are connected by way of RCA cables. The ED-1 matched the construction and size of the SRM1 Mk2 and was finished, like those units, in either black or silver. The ED Signature matched the chocolate brown of SRM-T1/S/W. The SRM-Monitor incorporated an ED-1 and an SRM-1 Mk2 Professional into one large package and was finished in either black or silver, and had switchable RCA or XLR inputs. The ED-5 unit was made to match the then current SRD-6 transformer unit (an interface between a speaker-driving power amp and the Stax earspeakers) in silver.

The ED-Signature would most likely also match the 404 and Lambda Nova Signature. The ED-1 equalization (in my case, provided by a very rare SRM Monitor) sounds excellent with the Lambda Nova Signature and surprisingly good with the Omega 2 Mk 1, despite being the wrong equalization for the latter. The upper midrange/lower treble, in particular, sounds quite a bit flatter and the low end remains in good balance with the mid and high. As Bill Sommerweck said in his review of the ED-1 in the April 1989 issue of Stereophile, track 9 on Stax' own “Space Sound” CD changes from objectionable (without the equalizer switched in) to quite listenable with the equalization switched in. In my opinion, there is no magical out of the head experience, except when listening to the aforementioned CD, or the Ultrasone binaural tracks (i.e. binaural recordings). These are seriously spooky, but sound 3 dimensional with or without equalisation. Try them with someone who is not used to listening to headphones and see what happens when you cue up track 1 or 2 of the former, or the fireworks track of the latter. Sabine whispering in your ear - oh yes! Shower spraying on your shower cap!

Now, here is where things start getting weird. I had a listen to the SR-007 Mk 1 phones with the equaliser on and it also sounded great - it may just be happenstance, but I've never heard Miles Davis’ "Kind Of Blue" sound so wonderful and with plenty of lower bass (which even the SRM-717 doesn't seem to match). This is strange, because the frequency response for the ED-1 is absolutely flat in the bass and should neither increase or decrease bass presence, and the equalisation should not be suited to the SR-007 anyway. I would have thought it unlikely to be a de-emphasised treble spike on the SR-007 Mk 1, as noone has commented on that phone having a treble spike before. I don't know, but whatever, this pre-equalisation is not just scientific theory and sounds superb. To me, the sound has moved from lots of good hi-fi parts and to an organic and holistic experience. In my opinion, the Stax SRM Monitor is quite simply the single best piece of equipment I have ever purchased, and galvanized me to write to Dr Gunther Theile to congratulate him on his pioneering work (in conjunction with Stax) on this unit.
The SRM-Monitor, without the equalizer engaged, is a very good pure A class FET DC amplifier with clear dynamic sound and excellent low level detail resolution (indeed, under these circumstances it is almost the same as the SRM1 Mk 2 Professional, apart from the added balanced input which appears to make improvements to the sound, smoothing the slightly spiky sound of the SRM 1 Mk2 Pro). Compared to new Stax amplifiers, such as SRM-717, the sound is slightly less refined and on the dry side, but still very impressive. Stax tube amplifiers such as SRM-T1, SRM-007t etc might offer a little bit more refinement and are more fluid in their presentation as well but are not as powerful. In my opinion, the SRM-Monitor is superior to almost all new cheaper Stax amplifiers (SRM-323, 303 and down).

However, when the Diffuse Field Equaliser is switched in, this amplifier becomes magic. A reduction in any residual Lambda series tizziness in the upper midrange and a slight filling in of the Lambda midrange trough allows the Lambda to sound much flatter while retaining the power it is capable of. The vocal reproduction is much improved overall, coming closer to the nearly perfect Sigma series in that department. The bass quality is also improved, which is odd, as the equaliser appears to leave the bass frequencies unchanged.

The SRM-Monitor also sounds great with the SR-007 Mk1, especially with the Diffuse Field Equaliser switched in, despite the equalizer being specifically adjusted for the Stax Lambda Pro. There is no hiss or hum at any setting of the volume control."