Tuning CDP's

Posts : 2227 Join date : 2009-09-18

Greetings Michael and ChrisS cheers

A good post Michael!

Sonic thought I was the only one who experienced the vibrating, chattering CD transports after taking the players apart for top tuning. In my case, there were a couple of disks that caused so much vibration that I could see the disk move up and down. So much so the transport could even move about on the Michael Green rack I was using at the time and this movement would unbalance the top tuning rods and canopy! Even so when playing other CDs that did not vibrate this badly, I could always feel at least some tiny vibration when lightly placing a finger on the top bar of the transport.

On the other hand, when the transport was mounted in the CD player casing/chassis even when not bolted down tightly, there was zero vibration or noise, and you could not tell by resting a finger on the transport whether the CD was playing or not. And this level of absence of vibration was achievable in US$50 players.

Sonic has mentioned this on my Tuneland threads before and asked what to do about it.

Mr Green says in his post: One problem with taking it all the way down is the unit if not perfectly level will chatter. Not hurting the sound but driving you crazy. When I take it all the way apart I usually have it in a separate room from my listening but when in the same room I leave it put together.

That explains it, yes, though Sonic wonders about Michael saying “ Not hurting the sound but driving you crazy”….now if it is audible in a listening room the rattling must be about equal to some of the nastiest “rattlers” in my CD collection.

I have to ask then: “Why does this vibration not hurt the sound? These vibrations are an anomaly and a departure from proper operation of the transport (especially if the chattering stops when the transport is levelled). If the vibrations cause the disk to move in relation to the laser during play, the focus of the beam and tracking is affected which in turn cause a higher error rate and the need for correction by the machine. There MUST be consequences to sound quality?”

In my attempts for a fix, Sonic agrees with Michael’s observation. I found the transport had to be leveled perfectly if I wanted to avoid any vibrations when the transport was separated from its chassis. It might take a very thin piece of paper under one of feet of the transport. And then this did not work with all CDs. Some CDs that were vibration free earlier now chatter badly. This meant I have to again remove the Top Tune canopy and rebalance the assembly again.

It drove me crazy, so Sonic left my transport mounted and then finally given the delicate on-edge assembly which is what I found the Top Tune set up to be even with the transport in the casing, Sonic went to computer audio. What a relief….

While Sonic is on the same page with Michael and Zonees about the vibratory code in relation to room and system tuning, I believe we need to differentiate between musical vibrations that arise from the proper and intended flow of music in whatever form (vibratory, electrical) through a system and those vibrations that arise from something being faulty – a CD transport that rattles is one of these….other examples include a faulty amp transformer that buzzs, a broken or loose speaker driver, a faulty turntable drive motor or drive system, a loose floorboard that buzzes if the music is loud enough or of the right frequency. These are vibrations are not musical, they work against music and Sonic thinks they need to be faced with a “zero tolerance” approach.

Any thoughts?

Sonic

Posts : 21 Join date : 2017-10-12

What about mass loading the CD transport instead and placing it in a box of sand as to isolate it completely from room conditions? Surely a vibrating CD mechanism isn't conducive to good sounds.

Posts : 21 Join date : 2017-10-12

At the same time though this reminds me of a friend of mine who actually uses a CD lathe to True his CDs because you can't even imagine how many of the CDs produced are not perfectly round. This may be something to look into for those of you who are disassembling your components and need the Precision of a perfectly Round Disc as to not rattle for vibrate due to out of balance operation.

Posts : 2227 Join date : 2009-09-18

Greetings StevenZ cheers

Good points indeed you have made here --

Mass Loading: yes, it can be done. Sonic has found that the transports I tried tuning had flimsy top bars and any more than gentle pressure started to affect the free spinning of disk. That is with the disk loaded and the tray withdrawn but the disk not playing and I try to spin the disk by hand. The use of a sand box is an idea too, and while this may fix the chattering it will also create its own sound signature. Damping and mass loading affect the sound. In the Tune, everything has an effect on the sound one way or another.

CDs Out of Round: you are spot on. It is just a transport removed from its casing exacerbates any eccentricity of the disks. While we must not shoot the messenger, practicality dictates (at least to Sonic's brain) that we should avoid systems that are so "on a knife edge" that only a few disks play properly. We are in this hobby for music and entertainment not for the tweaking itself.

Sonic's understanding of how CD players work tells me that a vibrating mechanism does no favours to the music.

Welcome to the Tune and nice exchanging ideas with you:!:

Sonic

Posts : 21 Join date : 2017-10-12

Hi Sonic. I'm new to the Tune so please take my opinion with a grain of salt as I haven't experienced first hand the said benefits of tuning or even the gear that MG likes to use.

However, I have played with mass loading and isolation and do find that in my own system, if I can combine the both, mass loaded AND isolated from outside variables that my sound quality increases in more than a few ways. The most notable is quieter background noise and more expansive soundstage.

I dabbled with CD players for a very long time up until I believed computer audio, and data transmission were on par or superior to what I was hearing from my Denon DVD9000. From there I've been on the computer audio merry-go-round but I still find that spinning discs is just a different experience. See, myself I like to put a CD in and just listen to the entire album. But with computer audio, one tends to skip around often which can put the listener on-edge.

I think this feeling also comes from spinning vinyl. The ability to just sit and experience the production as a whole, instead of tidbits of each.

Anyway, getting off track. Back to this thread's normally scheduled programming.

Posts : 2227 Join date : 2009-09-18

Hi Steven -- you also into vinyl? Shake hands Very Happy

I use a Rega P5, RB700, Ortofon 2M Blue driving a Pro-ject Tube Box S. What do you play your records with?

Given that you are using speakers from Mr Green, Sonic is many steps behind you.

If you read some of my scribblings, Sonic is in the Tune for acoustic control of a concrete bunker-like room with some rather strange equipment for this type of listening space - Magneplanars which are dipole.

The truth (and I have said this a few times earlier) is I have no first-hand idea what tuneable loudspeakers, a fully tuned room and equipment sounds like. I can only infer from what my fellow Tunees describe.

However to Michael's credit, the Tune has made this room and system listenable to the extent that visitors listen and go Shocked

For me vinyl and computer audio works because I am into early music, renaissance and baroque music so i tend to listen to an entire FLAC file or LP from start to finish rather than track-by-track, song-by-song.

The convenience of computer audio is a nice thing. As for vinyl, Sonic is most contented to go thru the "ritual" of cleaning etc. for the sound benefit this format confers, not to mention the obscure composers and artists on this medium whose works I collect and have little commercial demand so will likely never be reissued in digital.

Sonic

Posts : 2227 Join date : 2009-09-18

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Hi Steven -- you also into vinyl? Shake hands Very Happy

I use a Rega P5, RB700, Ortofon 2M Blue driving a Pro-ject Tube Box S. What do you play your records with?

Given that you are using speakers from Mr Green, Sonic is many steps behind you.

If you read some of my scribblings, Sonic is in the Tune for acoustic control of a concrete bunker-like room with some rather strange equipment for this type of listening space - Magneplanars which are dipole.

The truth (and I have said this a few times earlier) is I have no first-hand idea what tuneable loudspeakers, a fully tuned room and equipment sounds like. I can only infer from what my fellow Tunees describe.

However to Michael's credit, the Tune has made this room and system listenable to the extent that visitors listen and go Shocked

For me vinyl and computer audio works because I am into early music, renaissance and baroque music so I tend to listen to an entire FLAC file or LP from start to finish rather than track-by-track, song-by-song.

The convenience of computer audio is a nice thing. As for vinyl, Sonic is most contented to go thru the "ritual" of cleaning etc. for the sound benefit this format confers, not to mention the obscure composers and artists on this medium whose works I collect and have little commercial demand so will likely never be reissued in digital.

Sonic

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Subject: Re: Tuning CDP's Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:13 am

Any thoughts?

mg

On a planet that is in constant motion I have learned to put listening first over theory. I love the sound of the Maggie CDPs and how amazing they are to tune. If one starts to chatter, I have a remote close by usually and can simply open and close the door. In my settling experiences I have had music playing on repeat for up to a week or even more without any chatter at all. I've had others that make it a straight day or two, and yet others that I need to reset more often.

Does it bother me? Not really

This hobby comes with variables and changes. Getting hung up on any of them takes me out of the spirit of listening. As far as vibrations, it's an old topic and can repeat itself as much as it wants as far as I am concern cause that's what Tuning is all about. As for me though I don't really take the time to challenge a laser and disc making connection or care about sticking my figure on something to check and see if it is vibrating. "?" Of course it's vibrating or it wouldn't be producing signal. Vibrating to the touch or not honestly doesn't make an amount of signal measurement to me. Listening is my only criteria.

Dampening?

Dampening is certainly a relative expression that means different things to different folks. Over dampening however is a particular sound, or lack of, that is easily detected by the size of soundstage and the holes in that stage. I like a big stage so I'm not too fond of over dampening. I like harmonic structures that are able to get tight and up close and at the same time flowing and dissipating without end. Energy transfer is the key to any sound conclusion. How we make that transfer, what through and to what degree are all part of Tuning. I have found (for me) low mass leans toward bigger sound and high mass smaller. Low mass gives way to more signal and high mass less. If one controls low mass properly the increase of power takes place.

Balancing

The entire hobby is about balancing and learning which components or methods have either the most balance or at least the desired balance. As for me again I prefer "No Components" or components that I am able to shift, bend, twist and turn my music out with consistently and to my liking. As far as the Magnavox CDP goes, I think I have 15 units and growing that are able to bring me closer to the music over anything I have previously used. I'm a huge believer in settling so that rules out many other sources. Harmonics are not able to fully form in one listening pass, and this too is a big importance to me. Some players on repeat close in and others open up. Yet the best do both, finding the inside of the music and the full structure. As settling takes place a good player will keep improving in balance, timbre and tone. That's what I go after in listening. So much so that the first or second run through leaves me empty and the music shallow, hard and broken. The Maggie has certainly changed my style of listening more than any other player that's for sure. Some of made a dent in repeat listening for me but none have come close to the Maggies.

Posts : 35 Join date : 2014-05-24

Wow, thanks for such a thorough response, Michael!
I don't suppose there's anyone willing to revive the manufacturing of these players (with a few pre-tweaks and refinements) just for us?...

The chattering of one of my players (the 2300) doesn't seem to go away with playing different cd's or by pressing the "Open/Close" button several times, but I did find that wedging the pointy end of one of those flat plastic dental picks between the metal rail and plastic support did silence the chattering 75-100% without much detriment (to my ears) to the sound.

Subject: Re: Tuning CDP's Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:06 am

Chris said

"I don't suppose there's anyone willing to revive the manufacturing of these players (with a few pre-tweaks and refinements) just for us?..."

mg

Wouldn't that be great Exclamation

I've become a Maggie collector, and my friends all know what to get me for Christmas Very Happy

I'm so easy to please santa

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