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 Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback

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Sonic.beaver




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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Oct 23, 2016 10:29 am

Greetings Michael and Zonees!

Michael says "many of these systems sound the way they look".  What might he mean?

Sonic has been reading up on the history of audio -- writings by John Eargle.

And something I read had got me thinking and given Sonic's sense of audio reality a little shake.

Zonees know that Sonic has been fascinated by Western Electric gear -- particularly the Japanese cult items like the 12a and 15a horns. I have not yet had the opportunity to hear them but what I read on the internet seems to say they play music like nothing else does.

Now Western Electric horns were movie theatre sound systems. The huge 15a horn (12 feet long when uncoiled) with the WE 555 reproducer (driver speaker) was the midrange unit with a working frequency range of 100hz to about 5 khz.

To extend the frequency response downwards and upwards, 18 inch bass speakers were added on open baffles and compression tweeter added.  This improved the response to about 50hz to 8khz. No much by today's standards but a huge step in the 1930s.

Have a look at this pix from Audio Anthology -- the big horns are the 15a. See the woofer units on the floor beside the horns:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S626

The learned John Eargle, in writing up the history of JBL, pointed out that the Hollywood movie technical people at studios like MGM did not like the 3-way augmented full range Western Electric system -- the problem was the signal transit time delay of the midrange through the 12 foot long horn compared to the woofer and tweeter.

In the end, this dissatisfaction led to the formation of Altec Lansing and JBL with their studio, theatre and public address speaker solutions.

The politics of Hollywood aside, the technical people were no fools.  They must have heard something in the 3-way system that caused them to call out the midrange delay problem. Whatever it was, it must have been audible.

In our present day thinking, a three way system with the mids delayed by the equivalent of 12 feet is a non starter -- it would be like if Sonic put my Janis W-1 subwoofers where my Magneplanar MG1.5 QRs are now, separated the Magneplanar quasi ribbon tweeters and mounted them on the Janis W-1 subwoofers and took the upper bass/midranges panels of the MG1.5QRs and placed them three feet beyond my front wall!

Of course, we do not use DSP to sort out the various arrival times -- no solving this 1930s probelm by cheating with 21st century technology  Exclamation  

The dissatisfaction from MGM led to the next generation of professional speakers from JBL and Altec that solved this problem.

Sonic's Shaken Audio Reality

Sonic knows there are Korean and Japanese audiophiles who today practically worship Western Electric horns like the 15a along with Motiograph baffled woofers and compression tweeters. There are also manufacturers who make very expensive reproductions of Western Electric gear with their field coil speakers.

If the MGM engineers could hear the long transit delay of the 12 foot horn back then with the sources and amplification of the 1930s, how is it that today's Western Electric worshippers do not hear the same issues when they have access to and use much, much better amplification, along with vinyl and tape equipment playing programme material that did not exist in 1930s not to mention Hi-Res digital? Why don't they hear the problems?

Any thoughts, Michael and Zonees?

Sonic


Last edited by Sonic.beaver on Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:53 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Added text and formatting for clarity, corrected typo)
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Sonic.beaver




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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeTue Oct 25, 2016 8:58 am

Greetings Zonees!

Sonic uses a JVC SEA-10 EQ to adjust for different programme musical characteristics and have found it to be an important part of my musical playback chain (both analog and digital).

I found this guide on the internet that Sonic has found useful in helping me know which slider creates what correction.

Hope y'all find it useful even if you are not EQing -- this tells you what characteristics lie in which frequency range.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S627

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Oct 27, 2016 8:55 am

Greetings Zonees!

Sonic finds reading Harbeth deisgner Alan Shaw's views good fun, sometimes with nuggets of truthful insights within.  Whatever Zonees might think of what he says when looked at with our Tune mindset, plus his doctrinaire way of saying things, remember we must respect him for designing some great loudspeakers like the Harbeth HL5s.

Alan Shaw he say:

Absolutely. Another heap of utter BS that has grown legs and meanders freely through audio forums concerns the 'improvement' in the sound of solid state electronics after a period of x hours to 'burn-in'.

It is pure and utter fantasy. There is no electronic component in solid state electronic systems that can be 'improved' with age. The opposite is true. The electrons in your amplifier formed during the Big Bang, behaved the same then as now. And will continue to do so into the far future.

The sonic performance of the amp will be the same the instant it is switched-on in the factory for primary QC test, one hour, one day, one week, one month, one year or hopefully ten years after it was made whether or not it is occasionally powered-on for use. The only components that are vulnerable to age are those fabricated from a moist chemical brew such as the power supply electrolytic reservoir capacitors, and these do have a working life clearly specified by the manufacturers. That working life is related to many factors including but not limited to -


  • Operating ambient temperature as this will cook the capacitor's chemistry


  • Current being drawn (how 'hard' the capacitor is working)


  • Chemical stability of the internal mixture


  • Quality of the sealing of the can to hold-in the chemicals and minimise evaporation


  • Basic electro-chemical design; is the item genuine and the product of proper design/QC or a forgery*


  • Voltage across the capacitor


  • Physical size


  • Colour of the case (ok, kidding: totally irrelevant)

Now, the fact is that the working life of the capacitor is related to its powered life. Sitting on the shelf in the cool store room, unpowered, unworked, assuming that the case sealing is good, the useful shelf life will far exceed it's operational, powered life. This implies that to extend the life of your solid state electronics it should be completely turned-off when not in use. Not standby mode (where the PSU is obviously still charged up and working) but fully off.

Look here at a good quality typical PSU capacitor of the type that would be found in an audio power amplifier (at least two needed): Panasonic 10,000u 63v can type. About half way down the page you'll see Lifetime .... 2000 hours. or this one, lifetime 3000 hours. I haven't read the small print about the definition of 'lifetime', but whatever it is, there are 8760 hours in a year (24 x 365), so a 'lifetime' of 2000 hours equates to a fraction of a year, if worked continuously. These 'wet' components are the only ones that can degrade in a solid-state system, and they certainly cannot ever improve with age - never. Like cooking a steak, as an electrolytic capacitor gently cooks under load the moistness progressively evaporates as it passes from rare to well done over 2000 hours or so.

Like so much of the regurgitated twaddle that one encounters in many walks of life, the truth is often the opposite of the urban myth. It is extremely frustrating that the voice of objective, rationalism (aka engineering) is buried under layer upon layer of misinformed chit-chat. How man ever amassed enough pragmatism to build churches that have stood for 1000 years considering the almost total lack of objectivity and reasonable scepticism nowadays is truly a miracle.

We've looked at (typically blue cased) electrolytic capacitors which are the cheapest and least durable type of high-value capacitors yet are widely used in loudspeaker crossovers for very low cost/small size reasons - here

Another factor to consider is fire. Any powered equipment is a fire hazard with a continuous supply of fuel.

*If you want something to really worry about, be aware that there is an increasing number of fake PSU capacitors in circulation. The situation is now so endemic that European audio electronic makers have had to import amps OEM manufactured in China, one by one open them in Europe, disassemble the PSU circuit, unsolder and replace the PSU capacitors with genuine originals and reassemble and test. Imagine having to repeat that 1000 times. And the unexpected cost at tens of thousands of pounds just to minimise a flood of Warranty claims a week or two into the amp's life when the short life expectancy of the fake components is reached. And hopefully before they self-ignite.

Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK


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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 28, 2016 2:33 am

Hi Sonic

Sorry that I am so late to the conversations  Neutral  . If you looked at my place right now you would understand why  Shocked . My place has been overtaken with stacks of platforms for my hand voicing  bounce .

1)

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S624

What I hear when looking at this particular setup is the listener is depending on the floor as their main pressure building surface. The rest of the treatment looks to be used to break up sound pressure zones and not using them as amplifying the signal. However look at how close the slats of wood are to each other. This is not your typical diffusion system from what I can see. With the wood slats being this tight (if they are as they seem) the flavor of the speakers are taking on the flavor of these walls and floor.

If I have time I can come back to this pic....right now that might be a long shot.

2)

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S626

Again, hopefully I can make it back to the Big Horn concepts.
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 28, 2016 4:28 am

Hi Sonic

As far as Alan A. Shaw goes, I haven't followed his writings cause of lack of time and maybe interest, only so much time in the day. However, I believe in the fundamental forces of nature and trust that they are the most accurate authority on issues of physics. I also have ears but that's another topic.

From everything I have seen on Earth thus far, age is relative to motion and as far as I can see we are on a moving planet. Secondly, any part that host any type of signal is in motion (or it wouldn't be called "signal"). So when I read audiophiles who try to spin a different science than what the Earth provides, I take it with a truck load of salt that is slightly bigger than audio designer egos.

This isn't meant to be a cut on Alan cause maybe he is trying to say something else than what I am reading in this quote. But my comment is, removing age magically from the universe's physical practical applications that have been in work since the very beginning of age itself, isn't all that practical.

here's a good rule to go by

Anything that is a part of audio, being a moving applied science, must follow the same set of rules as audio. For myself, the audiophiles can live in and on their debate teams, I'm much too busy being a part of the action sport of listening with all of it's realities.

sorry if I misinterpreted Alan, I thought he was saying there are parts of audio that don't age

Life is not a polaroid, a polaroid is one, of billions, of moving variables within this continuum.

saying this

I do enjoy reading Sonic's findings about folks in the audiophile biz cause he cuts through a lot of the chatter and onto the fun stuff study
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 28, 2016 10:07 am

Greetings Michael and Zonees

Thanks for your views Michael on the first system  cheers   Sonic is excited to hear what your thoughts are on the WE system.

Now on to the fun stuff and Sonic may have achieved something Tune-like (and therefore fun and exciting).  

Zonees will know that Sonic has heard and comprehends the effect of foam acoustic absorbers in my room and has been working for weeks to expunge or at least reduce the pieces of foam applied to my room.

Just yesterday I finally managed this – the removal of the two pieces of foam next to the TuneStrips at the corners of the front wall, meaning that of the six pieces of the original foam application, now only two are left – at the top seam of the front wall.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S628

Zonees will recall in my post of September 30 that Sonic has tried this before with poor results, a bad, bad BooWOONG developing.

So why does this work now?

Because Sonic applied an overhead DT in this unusual way:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S630

The sound is lively, noticeably tightly damped (OK, I could do with a bit more tight damping), though no BOO! or BooWOOONG! A slight hardness there might be, but with settling and moving the FS-DTs at the wall about, let’s see if Sonic can fix it  Very Happy  

Since I had my ladder out, Sonic also reversed the DT over my head, that is with the absorptive side facing down towards the floor. And got an odd development  Exclamation

A mild but unmistakable BOOoong! came back.  It was like keeping the step up as in this picture that the sound damped tightly with the front absorptive side-down DT.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S629

Odd room I have it seems, seems like the front and back halves behave differently.  Or might it be the BookCase Wall?

It appears Sonic has now got more control without foam while keeping a room that is live and friendly to the musick  Very Happy

I must be careful and not speak too soon. Yet Sonic feels I am getting somewhere in a significant manner.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Oct 30, 2016 8:37 am

Greetings Zonees

While we wait for Michael to post the pictures and then Sonic can comment further -- the experiment is progressing nicely and the direction/adoption of the overhead Tune I described is working.

Anyway, here is something about Another Michael:

This Michael was a major contributor to the science of audio recording and reproduction – Michael A Gerzon.  His contributions to audio are many and was known for a surround sound system made up of four Quad electrostatics (ESL 57s), one directly in front of the listener, one to the Right and one to the Left of the listener and the fourth directly behind the listener. This in 1970.

The stereo signal was fed like so: Front = R+L (sum/mono), Left = L only, Right = R only, Rear = R-L (difference).


See  https://www.michaelgerzonphotos.org.uk/surround-sound-from-two-channel-stereo.html

According to accounts, when the speakers were correctly balanced up (Sonic doesn’t know how difficult that was) there was superb clarity, presence and impact. On the other hand sibilants, various distortions and in particular tape drop out became all the more irritating because it broke the illusion. It was possible to the footsteps of a choir processing from behind the listener, to the right and forward to the stage area in front of the listener.  Reportedly some listeners had difficulty “getting the effect”.

Have a read and see the pictures.  


Now about Michael Gerzon from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Gerzon

Michael Anthony Gerzon (4 December 1945 – 6 May 1996) is probably best known for his work on Ambisonics and for his work on digital audio. He also made a large number of recordings, many in the field of free improvisation in which he had a particular interest.

Life
After studying mathematics at Oxford University, Gerzon joined Oxford's Mathematical Institute working on axiomatic quantum theory, until his work in audio took him into working as a consultant. At university he already had a keen interest in both the theory and practice of recording, which he shared with a few fellow students including Peter Craven (the two were later the co-inventors of the soundfield microphone, and collaborated on many other projects).

Over the next few years, this interest led to the invention of Ambisonics, which can be seen as a theoretical and practical completion of the work done by Alan Blumlein in the field of stereophonic sound. Although Ambisonics was not a commercial success, its theory underpinned much of his later work in audio such as his work with Waves Audio and Trifield. He was also active in the development of digital sound techniques, such as noise-shaped dither and Meridian Lossless Packing (MLP, the lossless compression used in DVD-Audio disks).

The Audio Engineering Society recognised Gerzon's work in audio by awarding him a fellowship in 1978 and the AES Gold Medal in 1991. He was also awarded the AES Publications Award posthumously in 1999.

Death
Gerzon died in 1996 from complications resulting from a severe asthma attack.

Tape Archive
The British Library Sound Archive contains Gerzon's collection of tapes, which he kept from his student days. The collection consists of 400 hours of recordings. A direct link to the collection is not possible; a search for the Collection title "Michael Gerzon tapes" will find them all by track. (An advanced search for Call Number "C236" with varying suffix numbers is a useful alternative that finds by tape.) Readers with a British Library card can book to hear tapes by appointment.

Other References
Go visit the linked wikipage


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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeTue Nov 01, 2016 9:56 am

Brass instruments - very difficult to reproduce ... says Alan Shaw

The Issue:

Originally posted by s.a.b  --  Since you mentioned Steely Dan (and I confess that though I owned AJA on vinyl, I never replaced it on CD), how much "bite" should the brass have?

This is an area (and I've used Van Morrison 's "Jackie Wilson Said" as a test) where most speakers don't sound not right. Actually to my ears, not enough "bite", at least not enough in the right manner.

[Alan Shaw replies:]

Now this really is an interesting point and one which I've mulled over for many years.

First of all, the way a brass instrument projects sound is quite unlike others in the orchestra. You can think of a brass instrument as generating a penetrating searchlight beam akin to that of a lighthouse on a foggy night. The other instruments are more omnidirectional.

Not only does the brass section have unique directionality, but the waveforms they produces are more like an electronic tone (say, a square wave) than a sine wave. Taken together, brass is, I agree, an extremely difficult instrument to both record and reproduce. If you look at the spectral content of a brass waveform it is quite distinctive and has a rich, complex harmonic structure with a lot of energy in those harmonics which require their soundwave to be generated simultaneously by the bass/mid driver and the tweeter - right through the crossover region and at a high level. This is where the difficulties for the designer really lie: relative to the fundamental, the harmonics are so strong that any mis-integration is audible and in a poor speaker tends to tear the instrument into two audible parts: the lower part (from the bass unit) and the higher frequencies (from the tweeter), neither fully blended.

I don't think it is really possible to perfectly reproduce brass on any system - but you can get close. A further complication is that the shape of the 'bell' or mouth of a brass instrument is conceptually the same as that of a woofer's cone - and that means that one mouth is trying to speak for another mouth. See the problem? It's the same issue as a speaker at home (a box) playing in your room (another box) reproducing the sound of the studio or hall (both boxes) in which a cello (a highly resonant box) is playing ... you have a box in a box in a box reproducing a box, each picking up a little bit of character along the way.

I can 'spice up' brass reproduction on a speaker system (by tuning the crossover) so that doubtless you'd love the way brass sounds - a nice 'bite', plenty of incisiveness - but the problem is that when we then play those other less directional instruments (and voice) with softer harmonics you'd recoil in horror. In fact, my eldest son was recently visiting at the same time I was experimenting with a crossover design, and Steely Dan was playing at the time. I demonstrated how I could peak-up the brass until it was really vivid, and we both agreed (I a little suspiciously, since I've been down this road many times) that the overall effect was exciting. "That's it Dad: stop fiddling - you've cracked it ..." were his famous last words. Of course, he leaves, I play different (orchestral, vocal, lounge jazz) music and over a period of days reverse the circuit design back to where it was. Don't ever design by committee! Trust your own judgement!

Further thought: brass, more than perhaps any other instrument, highlights the unique clarity of the Harbeth RADIAL cone. Try brass on polypropylene for example, and brass' biting edge is suppressed to one extent or another. On Kevlar, it tends to sound the opposite: forced and cup-like. Remember what I said: each step in the reproduction chain is polluted to one degree or another by the characteristics of that part, and that character can not be removed later. (Sonic's emphasis)

You cannot chemically remove the taste of peat from whisky; it is bound up into the fabric of the final experience.


Alan A. Shaw
Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK

Source: http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?99-Testing-room-speaker-acoustics
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeTue Nov 01, 2016 1:19 pm

let's try this again  Rolling Eyes

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S626

My answer on horns, is possibly different from others. Reason being, I'm not one for audiophile theory making as much as I am a doer of the hobby and industry. I saw so much theory by folks trying to figure things out or trying to impress others early on that I've kinda snickered Laughing my way through the music world all my life.

There aren't a whole lot of design types I don't like, used in an environment that works for them. And this is the point, your room is your speaker. If a room is pressurized correctly you can have the dynamics of a freight train. At the same time if the pressure is not working a system can sound like some kind of freak show and we sit there staring at our components wondering why have the audio Gods turned on us scratch .

Horns have been a design that sets out to answer specifics in big room performances as mid and long throw units, as well as audiophile efficiency needs. These two worlds don't necessarily have the same goals, which is why horns can be wonderful, and, the worst sounding creature ever made in the wrong "environment". Your comments about the midrange has haunted horn owners for years, but is delay really the problem? My answer to this is No! The problem is a room/speaker issue.

While working at the symphony halls in Atlanta I had the opportunity to hang out with quite a few horn owners. And even before this was often standing in line for my share of hand me down old speaker systems. Most of these were either some type of JBL/Altec Lansing types. I say types because there were far more custom horn designs by these companies than what was promoted. These speaker lines for the pro market were more of a, build your own system, by using all the variables available. Remember back in those days, and before, a stereo store was far different from the professional world. Home systems designed for the home consumer were different from home systems designed for the music biz person. Paul Klipsch was a great innovator but most of the guys I hung out with called the Klipsch sissy horns compared to some of the raw-ish old designs. Very few of my friends back then owned speakers with grill cloths, which was one of the things that separated us from the home audio folks. BTW I like Klipsch, well some of them when modified. Paul was a pioneer.

Now that I painted the picture for you a little, you can see that the gang I was around would invite me over to their places because they too had listening rooms, but they were far different from the audiophile types. The audiophiles had living rooms with stereos in them and equipment stacks. My friends had rooms that looked like half studio and half listening room and usually more than one system (meaning more than one room). In the one room you would commonly see a piano as the centerpiece of the room with studio monitors or horns in the corners. And another room that looked more like a live studio room with a serious audio system in it. The room was designed first to play speakers, not the other way around like audiophiles do.

Why is this important? I have always looked at the audiophile system as some what of a farce. Buying a speaker and then trying to make it work is kind of a ripoff when you think about it. I go along with it because that's the world I live in, but the answers to common sense questions some times go round in big circles because audiophiles and audiophile designers spend too much time trying to create a world that has been already figured out.

The way to use a Big Horn speaker setup is to turn your room into a stereo horn. Now I'm assuming the listener wants to hear a sound stage and not just shake their body. A big horn system sometimes works better without the rear wall behind the listener. Reason being is the nature of the long throw is designed to push instead of build. This isn't always the case but more times than not a big horn system will create a pressure sweet spot. This spot is made by how the walls (especially the rear) responds to the front pressure. Horns operate the opposite of other designs because this speaker actually produces more pressure than the rooms natural corners (again not always). Most speakers don't produce as much pressure as the rooms natural loading. Big horns produce more pressure because of their size but also the compression. If the corners of the room are not able to produce a full range, the speakers will over drive or under drive the frequencies missing in the corners. Take that same speaker and put it in a room 80' long or a little longer and watch that sound balance out, if the room isn't over dampened.

This may just be me and my thinking because I have used horns in many different size rooms, but when you get a chance to hear these beauties in their original settings I think it helps to understand them and appreciate what they can and can't do, and maybe even gets the brain thinking of how to tune them in. You can always tell a serious horn guy by looking at his Equalizer.

well better get back to work Wink but let me say, as with many designs big horns are a special speaker type and if one is willing to invest the time, another very enjoyable chapter to this hobby

Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 04, 2016 10:03 am

Hello Michael and Zonees!

That piece of writing from Michael on horns will be one of the classic writings from Michael on Tuneland  cheers   Thank you Mr Green – Sonic learned so much from it  Very Happy

With Sonic’s room/system, the DecoTune hung in the front with the absorptive side towards the floor is very much settled and a definite improvement.  The room is more controlled and acoustically drier with it.  Excellent  Exclamation
   
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To reduce some hardness that I heard and reported on, Sonic this and it works.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S632

You will notice that the front wall Shutters are folded flat. The control of things like Boo! and things is better with them this way.  With the Shutters perpendicular to the wall, some energy is trapped in the corners and doesn’t evacuate through the room evenly.

Onward, onward
 
Ever curious, Sonic attempted a few test Tunes around this central set up – one at a time, of course.  They didn’t work but were educational.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S633

This damped the upper frequencies well but either uncovered or created an echo in the bass that went Boo-Um.

Sonic also tried the doubled DTs side by side so a somewhat squarer structure was formed hung in the same place.  No pix, I forgot to take one.

This created BOO! plus oddities like some frequencies were controlled nicely while others were loose.  Uneven, though I did not notice a Boo-Um effect. Not listenable.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S634

These extra DTs on the front window created BOO! again.  

Sonic also had a co-dweller ascend a ladder and hold one of the DTs hanging edgewise so the absorptive side faced the floor to ascertain if the DTs over and forward of the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs could be remounted this way and create more room control.

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The test was brief but the BOO! test showed any effect from this was negligible or negative with the room again tending to hardness.  The test was conducted like this:  Room with just Sonic – BOO! Ladder introduced and co-dweller on it – BOO! Co-dweller turns the DecoTune – BOO!

So this is the end of the hanging DecoTunes phase.  Thanks to Michael for the kick-off suggestion, the system is now much improved. This will open the door to more Tunes Sonic is sure  Very Happy  

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 06, 2016 8:50 am


Some views from Alan Shaw, Designer, owner
Harbeth Audio UK @Harbeth User Group

[Note to Zonees – this is a combination of three posts from 2010 with the questions and comments in between from others omitted.]

Overloading the Listening Room

I completely agree - good point.

In fact, since I posted, I was considering what I have heard these past few days at the CES. Walking into the hotel bedroom demo room you will be greeted by one of these experiences:

• Ludicrously loud. The room is overloaded with energy, especially in the bass. As the room absorption is negligible the bass is muddy. Interestingly, if you fight your way through the crowded room (the bass acts as a crowd pulling magnet) then it sounds OK. The bodies absorb and break-up standing waves.

• Just right; the demonstration is as at the maximum level that the room can take i.e. absorb. This needs a little acclimatisation to after visiting loud rooms. Visitors often ask for the volume to be increased.

• Too quiet or narrow bandwidth music; not a common experience. Example of a speaker system which has a design optimised for a certain music/loudness and which sounds best on a few instruments at as low-ish level. Maybe they only play acoustic guitar or brass.

Every room, treated or not, can absorb or dissipate up to a threshold loudness. Beyond that the reflected energy swamps the listener. It has opened my eyes to occasional feedback about this or that model being difficult to use in an untreated room. I now realise that if these few days experience are anything to go by, I should ask about how loud they are playing.

I've noticed that as a general experience over many years, music demonstrations at shows are invariably too loud for the room, especially so here in the USA. A good dealer knows exactly how hard the room can be driven and the power required is always far below the speakers maximum power handling capacity. I'd guess that a normal room could only take about 25W of equivalent input power.

First - and this is really important - a few 50cm x 50 cms pieces of absorber foam sprinkled around the room just will not do anything other make you poorer. Think about this: to make any worthwhile difference, the absorber must occupy a minimum of about 25% of the entire surface area of the room's four walls + ceiling. Two or three pieces of foam, even pretty sculptured foam, will be completely useless as a general absorber. They just don't cover enough area to make a difference.

Then, separate issue: to absorb low frequencies you need thick, deep absorbers perhaps 1m thick or panel absorbers (see here). Therefore, it is really irrelevant whether the skimpy foam is placed tight into the corner or away - it's going to make no difference what so ever at low frequencies. It may well absorb a little in the middle frequencies and better still in the higher frequencies. But at the bass end - useless.

If all architectural acoustic issues could be solved at a stroke with a skimpy bit of damping here and there, highly paid acoustic consultants would be out of business - project here. Architectural acoustics is big business employing the best brains and the most sophisticated measuring and computer modelling equipment. You won't find any room tuning bells* used in acoustic design for obvious professional reasons.

Tone controls were developed for a purpose - to help get the best from the music/speaker/room interface. Tone controls vanished. The problems remain.

I believe that the tone control circuit when properly designed is acoustically transparent.

]*Sonic thinks: yeah the room tuning bells are nonsense but Alan has not observed the Michael Green method or he would have been less absolute in what he says about “professional acoustics”. Sonic knows of an AV demo room in my town which was professionally designed and treated and had a full Home Theatre surround system from JBL. When I went in, the first thing Sonic noticed was the place was so dead that people were raising their voices. Testing with handclaps just produced a small “plup!” sound.]

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeTue Nov 08, 2016 9:55 am

Hi Zonees

Sonic found this rather old article at Audio Note yet it is a good read especially the bits which I put in bold text:


"Making It"

by John McLaren


A funny thing happened to the CD on the way to the loudspeaker: some of the sound went missing. "Perfect sound forever", its inventors called it, and that slogan helped sell players by the tanker-load. But many listeners remained unconvinced, finding the sound chromium-plated, artificial and tiring, and resolutely stuck with their vinyl. Over time the inventors, Philips and Sony, came close to recognizing the shortcomings of their system, though they only became enthusiastic about this admission when they'd developed a replacement - the recently introduced Super Audio CD (SACD) - and were raring to persuade us to replace our hardware and software yet again. But Audio Note, a mighty mouse of a company, may turn out to have rained on the giants' parade. The boffins in Audio Note's modest Hove HQ scratched their capacious craniums about what was wrong with CD, and concluded that conventional CD players were losing up to four-fifths of the data. Now they're building machines that unearth those lost chords. The discovery is startling - it may mean we can all upgrade our music collection dramatically, without having to buy a single new disc.

It's not the first time that Audio Note's visionary Danish boss, Peter Qvotrup, has stood conventional wisdom on its head. Among Europeans, he was the main man who insisted that old-fangled valves actually sounded much better than the transistors which replaced them. He endured great tidal waves of scoffing from 'experts' who gleefully demonstrated that transistors' laboratory performance was superior, never thinking that the tests themselves might be suspect. Since then, humble pie has been consumed on an industrial scale, and the majority of expensive equipment now uses valves.

Qvortrup started his career as a marine broker before getting into hi-fi retailing with a clutch of shops in Copenhagen. His first foray into making the gear came with Audio Innovations, which he set up in 1984 and later sold. Audio Note was formed in 1991, and for the first few years combined manufacture with distributing a line of high-end equipment from Japan. The importing has gone now, and the company can concentrate on its own enormously wide range. It is probably the only small company in the world that makes a full line-up of audio products from cartridges to speakers.

Audio Note gear is probably the best that money can buy, and given the price of its flagship models, it bloody well ought to be. Want to know how much? Is your seatbelt fastened? Audio Note's range-topping system will set you back a cool 400,000... pounds.

He endured tidal waves of scoffing from' experts' who never thought their tests might be suspect. Since then humble pie has been consumed on an industrial scale.

That's almost as much as it costs to build a Formula One car (minus engine). As it happens, they're very similar. After all, they're both at the absolute cutting edge, use mind-blowing expensive materials, and need highly trained staff to design and assemble them. Since so few are made, the expense has to be amortized over a tiny number of units. The performance of this hi-fi is as far removed from a normal system as the race car is from a Hyundai.

And finally, both provide a trickle down of technology to more humble machines. Audio Note's range starts with a jewel-like mini system at a mere £2,300, that's like buying a McLaren road car for Rover money, and may be the biggest sound reproduction bargain of all time. In all, there are five separate levels of systems, and many different choices within each level.
Qvortrup believes that the Audio Note philosophy makes it distinct from the herd. "Most hi-fi makers are concerned primarily with packaging and market share. Even most so-called high-end machines use much the same technologies and processes as mass-market products. We prefer to stretch the envelope, to improve and refine constantly. However, doing that isn't easy. It makes a great deal of time, and requires superb materials. It's rather like cooking: whether you're making some thing simple or complicated, you'll always get caught out if you skimp on ingredients. Audio Note systems may sometimes cost more, but they offer a far higher enjoyment factor, and give our customers a real pride of ownership, like they might get from a Swiss watch or a racing yacht."

The breakthrough in CD reproduction shows the value of their painstaking research. It took them two years to get to the heart of the matter.

"All normal CD players have error correction circuits which 'sample' sound backwards and forwards as the disc is played, and help paper over any cracks in the data. They slice and dice the input as they go, and then reconstitute the whole. The trouble is that this is like mincing a piece of beef: once you've done that, you can't make a fillet steak out of it again. Basically sound is the same, it's a continuum, and we discovered that these circuits cause the loss of weak signals - subtle things like echoes, harmonics, spatial information, which are vital to natural reproduction. So we came up with our own approach, leaving the data raw, and unadulterated. We found that other conventional components were contributing to data loss, too, and we replaced them with aerospace-grade materials applied in a new patented way"

The result has to be heard. Try your favourite CD - one you think you know in every tiny detail - and be prepared to be astonished. Suddenly a plucked bass appears from nowhere. Hey, who brought that snare drum in here? The sax has somehow acquired a far richer timbre, and the backing singers are no longer a flat wall of sound, but three distinct, mouth-sized humans. The whole thing sounds so alive, so tactile, so real.

The only people who will be crestfallen are the vinyl die-hards. Up till now, they've probably been right, that if you can put up with the pops and clicks, and the dreadful Heath Robinson-ness of it all, LP does sounds better. Not any longer. Fish out the same recording on CD and vinyl, and compare them using an Audio Note digital to analogue converter. Within 30 seconds it's clear that the poor old black record is deep in cocked-hat territory.

I haven't heard SACD, or any of the other competing new formats, but Peter Qvortrup has and is very, very confident that his machinery will see them all off using normal CDs. (in case his customers want to satisfy their curiosity, his converters can handle all of those formats as well.) As for Peter and his wife Lesley, who helps him run the company, they're far from ready to stop listening to LPs. Mind you, they do own 35,000, and they will keep making brilliant record players for people like themselves.

Source: http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/reviews/britishairways.shtml
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 10, 2016 8:47 am

There are some audio curiosities out there that make for good reading.  Here's one -- the Tefifon

Janine Elliot takes another look at retro audio kit, this time focusing on the rare Tefifon.

Source: http://hifipig.com/the-tefifon/#more-20405

I remember being given a device called a Brush-Mail-A-Voice which was a dictation machine like a record player on which you placed a foldable 9” disk with grooves on it that a curvy arm with a magnetic head “stylus” recorded magnetic impulses onto the grooves from a microphone, and then you used the same microphone as a speaker to play it all back. I was only about 4 or 5 at the time and I took it all apart as it didn’t work. Don’t know what happened to it, but it was already 25 years old when I first played with it. That was my first interest in audio, and the device was in some ways the forerunner of the floppy disc or even CD, playing as it did from the centre to the edge. Around this time my mother was a secretary, often typing up words that had been previously recorded onto a Dictaphone “Dictabelt”, a design from 1947-1970, though the belts, a thin plastic belt 3.5-inches wide and 12-inches in circumference could only be recorded once, providing  up to 15 minutes of dictation (30 minutes on the rare long play versions). The recordings are pressed into the plastic by a stylus, a bit like wax cylinders from many years before.  The belts could be folded and recordings could withstand 20 plays before they were unplayable.

Another of my memories from the past was the 8 track player, playing a single ¼” tape which played at 3 3/4ips feeding tape from the centre of the “reel” and feeding it back to the edge. It meant that 8 different pieces could be on each track of the single reel of tape, with a length of metal foil joining the tape together and telling the head to move to the next track, and all held inside a cartridge. The design originated in 1952 by American Bernard Cousino, and a similar design called the Fidelipac was used by me and other broadcasters and DJs until the 1990’s, commonly called “cart machines”. The original idea of an endless cartridge comes from 1946 from a certain William Powell Lear, the inventor later of the Lear Jet, with an endless steel wire, itself based on an idea by Western Electric/AT&T Technology from 1933. Indeed the idea of a cartridge containing tape is a fascinating and complicated study.  Whilst some of us remember buying 8 track or stereo 4-track machines before cassettes tapes (invented in 1962) took over, round this time there are several other recording/playback mediums that have tried and failed. Things like the Fidelipac (1959), the PlayTape (1966), Mail Call Letterpack (late 60’s), and the RCA Victor Sound Tape Cartridge (1958) which was a 5”x7” tape cartridge with ¼ inch tape looking much like the Sony Elcaset which morphed in 1976. But before all that was a unique playback system that was a cross between the tape cartridge and the record.

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With a name that sounds more like a material for saucepans, the Tefifon from 1952 is quite a cute little German invention that, well, unlike everything today never quite made itself past the borders. Only in America was it slightly successful under the “Westrex” name, a subsidiary of Western Electric. A decidedly curvy little plastic number and looking more like a toy for young girl, this device had cartridges, called “Tefi’s” that played like those 8 track cartridges, and similar to the Dictaphone Dictabelt, the cassette “tape” was red plastic with grooves like a record that the stylus head played.  The Tefifon format itself was originally thought of and developed by the German entrepreneur Dr. Karl Daniel and his “Tefi” company in 1936.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S637

The Tefifon was amazingly good quality, and the tape could last as long as 4 hours, an amazing achievement for the time. A whole Wagner Ring Cycle could fit into four tapes! Each size of tape was a different length of tape, with the smallest being 15minutes. Bear in mind in 1952 most people were used to 78ips shellac which lasted only 4 minutes!  This invention was therefore an amazing achievement for the time. You clicked in the cartridge, pulled out the plastic tape around the roller and pressed in the head and it started playing. The plastic tape was actually an endless groove, so unlike the 8 track, you just pressed play and it worked its way to the end, rather than you or a sensor switching tracks. Roughly speaking, if you play the looped tape once through, a four hour loop would take around four minutes to loop, which would mean there must be 60 “grooves” on the plastic tape. Some models even had a remote control (though on a lead) to move the head up or down, in case you wanted to miss sections, or you could just move a wheel on the device to move the head, a pick-up cartridge on its side, up or down.

Most Tefi’s started with an introductory chime to let you know it’s the beginning, and at the end was a looped “chime” to warn you that it is the end and give you time to get off your chair and switch it all off. Whilst only mono the sound quality was amazingly good. What let it down was the bad distribution and promotion, and because of this the fact the library of recorded music wasn’t that great either. Perhaps memories of the Second World War had a part in its failure abroad as well. Such a shame! This was a great idea, just as the DCC I wrote about a few months ago, and it could have been big.  The last incarnation of the Tefifon format was in 1961, when they introduced stereo sound, but again even this was not commercially successful, so Tefifon production was wound up, like the tape itself, in 1965.

Janine Elliot
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 11, 2016 9:02 am

Greetings Zonees

Sonic has done some Tunes using wood from Mr Green.  This is stuff that Michael sent me years ago to try and they have been in my Tune closet unused for some four years and now I tried them, Sonic got some fruitful results.

This is the wood:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S639

Sonic first took two Douglas Fir squares and used them under Space Cones in the ASUS computer system getting a nice “harmonic glow” to the sound. One went here:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S638

The other Space Cone and Douglas Fir square goes on the ASUS laptop power supply.  These two Tunes showed Sonic at last that under the correct circumstances how well Space Cones work.  This wraps up my Space Cones quest with only two used in my system.  They work, I have to emphasise.  

This week Sonic got to doing this using the Douglas Fir squares to support the DAC:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S640

This emphasized the “harmonic glow” further, actually by a lot.

Earlier too I decided to use up the remaining Low Tone Redwood blocks in this way:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S641

The improvement was not large though I am sure this one is a Tune whose benefit will be felt should it be removed.  

Moving ahead, I will probably experiment with uses for the China Poplar, and keep working to exorcise the acoustic foam from this room/system. I am also dreaming of ways to make the system simpler.  

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 13, 2016 9:13 am

Greetings Zonees

Here is something that crossed my mind last evening followed by an observation Sonic made as I was tuning a recording with my JVC (Victor Company of Japan a.k.a. JVC Nivico) Sound Effect Amplifier 10, SEA-10 graphic equaliser.

Our fellow-Tunee Bill333 bought a Technics reel tape recorder and in his process to tune it observed this:

“So now I'm going through the chassis loosening the screws.  Mostly just things that are easily reachable, the sonic effects range from 'nothing much' to 'ok, now I'm hearing some music'.  This tape deck is held together with dozens, if not hundreds, of screws and many of them are so tight that I can't unscrew them without drilling them out and using a backing bit on them.  And those are the ones I can even reach.  To really loosen the structural tension in this deck would require an almost complete disassembly.  That being said, there were some points where things were sounding pretty good.  Or at least better.  The problem is that it seems to want to settle back to its starting point.”

With this in my head, I turned my attention to my JVC SEA 10 graphic equaliser.

Now like all good Tunees, I tuned the JVC SEA 10 by cutting cable ties, untwisting wires where possible, removing the casing, changing the power cable feed to genuine Michael Green T1 wire – and cracking screws.

All this worked to good effect and this improved the sound in terms of transparency of the device.

My cracking of the screws were only done to those holding the circuit boards for the signal and power processing and the transformer along with the removal of the wooded case and the rubber feet.

Sonic checked and found the JVC like the Technics has lots of screws holding the metal work that forms the chassis together. Just a quick count, there are at least 20 chassis screws. I have not cracked these as Sonic thought that tuning the actual circuitry was enough. Just checking the screws holding two chassis rails together – whoa! They are done tight

Sonic wonders if this is why the JVC SEA 10 has this slightly closed in sound even after I had done the initial tunes – even though it is effective in Sonic’s system as a tone control. Looks like I did not do enough!

Time to get the Philips screwdrivers out again....

Sonic


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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 13, 2016 8:20 pm

A smart move Sonic Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeTue Nov 15, 2016 10:03 am

Greetings Zonees

Sonic learned in my recent Douglas Fir experiments that one component in my system such as the AUNE x1s DAC may blossom with Douglas Fir, yet another device like a phono stage might not work with Douglas Fir (sounding muddled and sour) but produce great musicality with Low Tone Redwood.

Michael – is this a true observation that some components in a system may work better with one wood type and not with another wood OR is this just Sonic concluding this without giving sufficient settling time?

While we wait for Mr Green’s teaching on this, here is a pix from monoandstereo:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S642

Lucky fellow that he has his wind-up horn within his audio system. Funny when Sonic brings my wind-up acoustic horn (admittedly a made-in-India HMV, very common in this part of the world from the days of the British Empire) into my listening room, its presence shuts the sound down. And this happened more than once for Sonic so I gave up.

Michael, any reason you know for this given that this is a pure mechanical device, would it be the resonance of the metal horn and the small diaphragm of the reproducer?  

I’ll try introducing the wind-up gramophone again to be sure.


Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 16, 2016 6:09 pm

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S643

Sonic said

"Sonic learned in my recent Douglas Fir experiments that one component in my system such as the AUNE x1s DAC may blossom with Douglas Fir, yet another device like a phono stage might not work with Douglas Fir (sounding muddled and sour) but produce great musicality with Low Tone Redwood.

Michael – is this a true observation that some components in a system may work better with one wood type and not with another wood OR is this just Sonic concluding this without giving sufficient settling time?"

mg

The diagram above shows the same constant with every gradient, but notice how the constant changes (below) as every component does.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S644

The main signal (constant) has not been changed in this drawing, but when interacting with other agents the sum is different. So to answer your question: yes, every change you make you create another signal. Same happens every time you put on a different recording. Look at how different the saturation is with each conduit change. Exact same original source, I didn't change the constant anywhere. And this is with light. With the lower frequencies of sound the effect is much more.
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 17, 2016 9:13 am


Michael -- fascinating this is! Everything indeed affects everything else.

Now here is something Michael asked Sonic about a year ago about my tuning and listening habits. Looks like I am less of a Tunee than Sonic thinks I should have credit to be.

Good stuff from Michael back a year:

Hi Sonic

A question for you.

When you apply different wood do you also make adjustments with the EQ?

Have you spent much time yet, using the EQ and the wood together when voicing?

I'm not just talking about on the EQ, but putting on a recording, start making changes with the wood and also using the EQ as part of the range voicing?

example

You put on a vinyl, listen to what you might want changed, then start to adjust with the EQ and the 3 Low Tone Redwood blocks under TT.

What I'm asking is, how much are you doing simple variables, per recording?

_________________
michael green

]Sonic's answer: Almost never actually. Of course the JVC SEA-10 is used to correct gross errors in tone and it is really useful. Most of the time Sonic just lets the system and the source material play as they are. I must say for the record (heh heh Laughing ) that Sonic has often heard how a recording starts out on first play to be perhaps muddy or screechy when Track 1 is first played but by an hour later at the end of the recording, it sounds like a completely different recording – almost always sounding nicely improved. This means many times Sonic will play the LP or FLAC file over again and really enjoy the musick on the second pass!]

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 18, 2016 10:20 am

Greetings Zonees

Less Tuning, more listening this week for Sonic yet things are advancing. I might be closing in to how to stop using foam in my  remove this system/room.

Michael has said that Sonic should talk about the Tunes tried but did not work.  Here are some recent ones.

I tried this a pair of FS-DTs placed like this (everything else the same) flanking the listening chair and it didn’t work.

 Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S645

Things got brighter but Sonic felt the expansiveness of the soundstage was reduced.  Not of the image placement but the impression of musicians playing in a large space was reduced.

With recent Tunes, I also found that this worked less well:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S606

It turned out that this older placement works best defining the rear of the room zone:

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S646


A Mystery Solved

And a Mystery has been cracked by Sonic – I learnt what the Japanese room acoustic tuning product which Michael commented on this thread (see post of Oct 28, 2016) is.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S624

The product is the
Acoustic Grove System.

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Let’s have a quick look at what the idea is from the designer’s website:

From:
https://www.noe.co.jp/product/pdt1/pd1_12_01.html


The English here is via Google Translate and Sonic has taken bits from the pages of the Website here and there to distill the idea. Sonic is posting this to give Zonees a sense of how designers in another part of the world think of room treatment. I do not think that this is a product that is competitor to Michael's products -- the idea is completely different.

Let’s have a read:

Acoustic Grove System

What is the sound field in the forest?

In the forest, countless trees are deeply connected. The sounds emitted in the forest are scattered by the trunks of the trees in front, those that pass through the trees and are scattered by the trunk at the back, and repeat irregular reflections among the trees, proceed deeply It is thought that the sound in the middle to high range will be returned as a precise sound by repeating complex scattering, such as those coming back from. On the other hand, the low frequency sound has a longer wavelength than the tree trunk size, so the influence of scattering is small, and it goes out without leaving it.


• AGS effect - what is the most important factor for the audio room?

Frequency balance is also important in the audio room. Especially it is not exaggeration to say that adjusting the characteristics of the low frequency range is extremely important not only in the audio room but in every sound field. In the acoustic design technique based on the combination of the conventional sound absorbing surface and the reflecting surface, there was a tendency that a sound absorbing layer of 1 meter or more is required, or the sound is absorbed excessively to cause elongation and luster in the sound. With this, the fun of listening to the most important music will be lost. However, by placing various types of AGS units in place, you can adjust the bass range without sacrificing the important parts of the high range.

And in the sound field trimmed with "AGS", it is impossible to evaluate by static and statistical indicators such as transmission frequency characteristics and reverberation time, so that it is possible to adjust the quality of the sound of how the sound attenuates As you can reproduce the information contained in the music source without any exceptions, you realize surprising music playback whether LP or CD contained such information so much.

• Sound adjustment - "Strange points"

In the final sound adjustment, in addition to the physical measurement for checking the sound insulation performance and the reverberation time planned, etc., we also install audio and fine adjustment while listening to the reproduced music. In this time, adjustment of speaker position and angle is done in a few millimeters, and it is possible to finish by adjusting to the sound field where music is most pleasantly comfortable from various aspects such as sound image localization, spreading / depth, bass sound and tone color I could do it.

Immediately after completing the sound adjustment, at the moment the customer listened to the listening CD with the audio system we brought in, with a full smile, saying "It was a dream to have an audio room that sounds like this" The impression when I got it is still clearly remembered.

Customer's voice

Beginning was encounter with SYLVAN at the audio shop. I was surprised at the sound effect as soon as I listened to it, but I knew that there was an AGS that ordered according to the room, I knew there was a listening room that maximized its effect, and immediately arranged an airplane .

When I go to the listening room called Sound Lab, I am surprised by the goodness of its cozyness that was released from the sense of oppression of being in the room from the time I entered, and when I start listening to music, I feel like I have never heard before, I experienced the vividness as if I was doing it, and I realized the pleasure of listening to music. Since that time, I wanted to listen to more live performances, I went to various concert halls, and the desire to return the realism to my home increased. The idea of a long-awaited desire to create an audio room where you can enjoy music as much as you want is a concrete image by Sound Lab, so you want to realize it as soon as possible, and since then the plan has progressed faster went.

About six months from the plan, we will have the completion date, we will bring in the new audio set and we will not forget the impression of listening to that sound. We were able to have a room as we imagined and we got a natural sound like in the forest and a good sound field. I enjoy listening to music more than anything, I am listening to the AGS room and I am not tired and I do not have any pain at the loud sound, so I'm happy to listen with the volume I could not have ever played, I will listen to it for a long time. Motivation for audio is increasing more and more, I would like to try various devices.
I am convinced that "It was good to leave the audio room that was a longtime dream to Japanese acoustics!" I think that it will be a long association from now on, thank you.

Remarks
Acoustic Grove System (AGS), SYLVAN and ANKH have been registered as designs and are now pending international patent applications.


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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 20, 2016 10:42 pm

"Acoustic Grove System (AGS), SYLVAN and ANKH have been registered as designs and are now pending international patent applications."

Really? These designs have been around since the early 50's that I know of. I'm a little surprised this is just now being applied for some kind of patent. Must be a change to some older designing.

Starting in the late 50's there were listening rooms built like bamboo and grass huts. I saw my first in the 70's and even built my own, for not only the sound but the look as well. Always interesting to see the recycling of acoustics.
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 21, 2016 10:29 am


Hi Michael!

You did this stuff back in the 1970s Shocked cheers

Basically, the AGS is a diffusor.

Greetings Zonees!

Sonic hopes you like the Japanese things I am putting up more often nowadays. This because Sonic finds that there are other ways to articulate and think about audio than the language we are accustomed to in the magazines from the US and UK that we read.

IMO, we are so caught up in the legacy vocabulary of the late J Gordon Holt and HP that it is good to step away from time to time.

I mean Sonic finds it fascinating that tweaking the JBLs is a martial art to some listeners in Japan, that some listen to huge Tannoys up close with the cabinets less than 3 feet apart. That Cho-san who designed the great Micro Seiki string-driven turntables talked about the engineering of “managing the emotions of the materials (used in the turntable)”. Sakuma-san has his amplifier casings covered with cloth on a table in his restaurant Concorde (in Tateyama, Japan where his restaurant is said to serve a good hamburger steak) until the casing “speaks to him, when it knows who he is….” and only then will he start assembling his highly unusual amps which employ plenty of Interstage Transformers. And now the Acoustic Grove System seeks to recreate the effect of a forest with their diffusor system.

Of course audiophiles may laugh at these, we might shake our heads too and poke holes in the thinking, but we must remember the Tune sounds really odd to audiophiles who think swapping boxes and damping their rooms near-anechoic is the road to good sound.

As for foam – Sonic appears to have nearly worked out a means to have this room controlled (No BOO!) without acoustic foam. Getting there…..avoiding my habit of speaking too soon.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 23, 2016 9:37 am

Tuning Gems from Michael

From Sonic’s thread a year ago, things I should remember. My comments from the present (in November 2016) in [....] :

With you changing your music often it means that you are (from what I'm reading) having your sessions at the length from 15 mins to 2 hrs. [Sonic’s listening sessions are typically two hours on weekdays and up to over six hours on weekends. These times do not take into the settling CD/SACD/file played to warm up the system while Sonic has meals and such activities of mundaneness.]

My gut says this:
You have a few tools to use when going into a session and it's not so much that you decide to keep the system at one sound, but more important how you use these tools to adjust to each recording or session.

When I listen, I do it thinking about where the system (music) is and where I might want to go while listening. I might be sitting there hearing the cymbals splash and dying off but then after a while want to hear them splash and continue on flowing through the stage after the first hit. You've heard me say this many times, but the reason I say it in this case is for you to think about the wood not as a one sound, but more of the wood you use being part of a blend of flavors responding to each other and each part of the system and the recording conditions.

All of this wood has different sounds it's true, but that sound changes as conditions change such as weight, direction of transfer and other conditions, so as I might want to put a certain label on a piece of wood, I need to think about that piece as something that may have a sound that I might want to use when the session requires.

Of course I'm speaking about the hobby from my point of view of the hobby. I don't see the hobby as a fixed system and letting the recording play through it. I see the recording as the material to play and it's up to me and my mood for adventure to go where I want. Because of this, the word MW or LTR are used in regards to what is not right or wrong, but more a set of flavors I can use as adjustments.

for example:
Lets say I'm wanting to get a particular stage or sound within that stage. I know I can do this through any part of the trilogy, but what part is best and when is up to me making a move within the context of what that move might bring to the table in one direction or the other, and more importantly how that move changes the other 2 parts of the trilogy. I like you guys look at my system as the interaction between acoustical, mechanical and electrical, but within the context of each playing a role in the performance of the others. I make a change to magic wood for example, but in doing so I need to know what that just did to my electrical. Every tool I have ever design has the potential to sound horrible, it also has the potential of being some of the sweetest sound I have ever laid my ears on. But here's the thing, tuning is about the variables and as you guys know even moving something an 1/8" can and does change everything. We might want to will our systems to be auto-play, but this would mean going all the way back to the recording itself and setting standards that defy logic, and the very meaning of the words current and flow.

doesn't mean:
Another important part to this is understanding how unique our systems are. In other words, one listener may use a piece of wood a certain way, and the next guy find that same piece of flavor making a different or more suitable flavor for their conditions. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong, but it does mean that if we have the tools we can turn our systems more and more into musical instruments, which is the highest calling to this hobby.

saying all of this:
As I listen, I try to take the whole system on an experimental trip. The more I take that ride, the more I learn about each recording and every inch of my audio chain. There are times I might be 1/8" away from the place I want to go and if patient snap boom bang I find it. If I make too big of a change sometimes it's like starting all over, which can be just as much fun or a drag if my time is limited.

Magic Wood is one of those woods that can nail it, bringing everything to life, or stop everything in it's track, entering "the dull". It's a wood that even after it is cured, will take on moisture. All woods do, but some of the lighter ones that have more open fibers can change character dramatically.


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Sonic.beaver




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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 25, 2016 11:36 am

Greetings Zonees

Sonic has exorcised foam from my room, replacing it with DecoTunes from Mr Green  Very Happy  Very Happy  Very Happy

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S648

They have to be unconventionally turned absorptive sides out to get the room under control.  In these spots, if I applied the DecoTunes reflective sides out there came to be an awful BOO!

On the other hand, turning these two DecoTunes absorptive sides forward did not work.  The sound became coloured and the images recessed.

Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 S649

Sonic is letting things settle and will report progressively on how the sound changes.  The first thing I hear is a drier sound that makes the music slightly more focussed and.....drier....that’s the only word I can use to describe the sound.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback   Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 27, 2016 9:25 am



Greetings Zonees

An update on the settling sound after the foam removal: the drier sound has opened into a more cheerful presentation. The inner opacity that the foam added to the sound is gone.

Now to wood from Michael working/not working in different parts of the audio/room system.

Sonic has found that placing a Low Tone Redwood block on the transformer of the AUNE x1s closes down the sound and rolls off the treble. Low Tone Redwood works very well elsewhere in Sonic’s system under or over devices such including over the transformer of the Quicksilver preamp, under the ASUS laptop but this one spot the sound goes dull, dark and dim.

Under the Japan Victor Company Sound Effect Amplifier-10 three Low Tone Redwood blocks supporting it is a bit much when LF boost is applied. There is a noticeable upper bass lift and a boomy sound. Of course if Sonic wanted Flat (no EQ boost) the JVC-SEA-10 is simply switched out of the chain via the tape loop so whatever is under and over it becomes irrelevant to the sound. And when bass cut is required the Low Tone Redwood blocks are neutral in effect.

Zonees might then consider that with all treated woods for tuning from Michael that their effect will be beneficial in many spots yet there will be some places in your system they will tip the Tone off in a way you might not like.

If this happens, use the wood elsewhere. These treated woods from Michael work powerfully!

Right now Sonic is working with China Poplar disks from Michael Green which he says “The China Poplar has a nice tonal quality for bass notes. Sometimes I uses these in my main CD player setups too or under power supplies. I've also been using these for some prototype speaker stands.”

When I tried this wood under the loudspeaker stands it boosts the bass but does something in the mids and trebles that makes the sound go “sour”. Today Sonic placed the China Poplar disks under the transformers of the Quicksilver preamp and on listening the bass is getting larger, not boomy, with none of the “sourness” Sonic found when using the China Poplar disks elsewhere. This wood is showing promise to do some very nice things with the musick.

Listened this evening to Lionel Hampton and Dexter Gordon playing Seven Come Eleven. After that it was Telemann’s Water Musick (a different work from Handel’s Water Musick) – Musica Antigua Koln; Archiv. Cued up next is J S Bach’s Anna Magdalena Notebook (Igor Kipnis – harpsichord).

Sonic


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