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 Old Tunee - Newer System

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garp



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PostSubject: Sonic's reply   Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:33 am

Sonic,

I did not comment on all of Dudley's article, specifically his argument of the advantages of lps vs cds. If I were starting a system today, I would keep it as simple as possible - CD, integrated amp, and speakers. For you and I, we have vinyl because of large lp collections. Also, good used vinyl costs half of what I spend on used cds locally.

What I really like about Dudley's article as well as Michael's recent excellent response, it provides us important views of the history of our hobby's evolution. While Dudley did not step far into the ideals of the arts and craft movement, there is enough analogy of what the arts and crafts movement still is all about and what Michael offers every day with his evolution of a simple, tuned system. I am a student of the arts and craft movement as it evolves. Today, the arts and crafts movement has evolved to include artisans of the US, Europe, and Asia. It asks us to keep our life, our home and possessions as well as our hobbies as simple as possible. While Dudley honors those audio industry craftsmen who care about creating the best sounding equipment that they can achieve with very little profit margin, Michael offers a path to maximize the audio playback in our homes often using the audio equipment created by the modern artisans. Many of us including me would have saved ourselves much time and money if we had chosen Michael's path in the beginning. As we become better listeners, we gain a better appreciation of the art of music and what the music artisans are attempting to communicate. In the end, we all choose our own paths to this sonic nirvana.
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:12 am

Hello Garp

"Michael offers a path to maximize the audio playback in our homes often using the audio equipment created by the modern artisans. Many of us including me would have saved ourselves much time and money if we had chosen Michael's path in the beginning. As we become better listeners, we gain a better appreciation of the art of music and what the music artisans are attempting to communicate. In the end, we all choose our own paths to this sonic nirvana."

Agree absolutely with what you say  cheers 

I also like the idea that in Sonic's journey to musick via Michael's tuneland, I share in the creation of my system in a tangible way, where my system becomes an extension of me and my tastes rather than merely a series of boxes wired together.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:53 pm

sonic said

"However it strikes me that it is somewhat ironic that we at the Tune are finding a completely different plane of audio with equipment that is the opposite of artisanal audio -- now Michael's room treatments, racks, platforms and speakers are artisanal audio truly in spirit and in deed but the Magnazox, Sherwood and yes, my Sony DVD player are mass discount store cheapies. Yet when tuned they reproduce music to a level that CD players and amp costing a car cannot. The operative idea is "when tuned".

So it becomes a question of what we want to tell people come to this site with questions. They will have invested in equipment, they may have tried to treat their rooms. I doubt the Tuneland is the sort of place someone will drop in saying "I got no equipment yet, I may have a spare room and a bit of $ to spend on an audio system, can you tell me where to start?"

It will be more likely "Hi, I got a Network Storage System and I got a problem..." "I have this apartment and my Quad dipoles are.....", "Hi, I have this Thorens and Tannoys and they don't seem to be getting on with each other, can you help..."

Is the answer then "hey, you got it all wrong with your Martin Logans, Jadis amps...sell it all and get a Sherwood and Magnazox!" They will just walk away.

Fundamentally we must remember that these are people with real world problems, perhaps with lots of monetary or emotional investment in their systems and they are customers of Mr Green and his highly effective products. "

mg

I'm not sure when it was, but along the way I realized that there was another chapter that should take place. My products no longer were products to me but a method. This method if you read some of the writings on the archives  was more about the whole world picture, and audio (my personal passion) was the door opener to this world.

With something as big as the tune, it gets to a place where you realize that this bolder is going to be much harder to push up hill than I thought. If I named all the products on my list to tune (redesign or invent) two things would happen, one Drewster (patent lawyer) would shoot me, the other it would open the door for folks who have different goals in their lives than seeing products get developed. When one has something truly innovative the wolves are not far from your heels.

I won't get into the other designs, but as far as this industry every time I have entered with the thought of one or two products within a month it turns into the whole thing again. It's an all or nothing type of adventure. I'll be honest it's not my goal to tune other products by taking them apart and tuning them. This is not the way to take an industry into the future. This industry and the pro music industry should have always been tunable. Having fixed products could be one level, but the audiophile level should not be a bunch flavors being thrown together. What it should be is a well designed musical instrument used to play back music. I don't look at myself as an accessory maker but the inventor of tunable audio.

There's only one reason this industry is not already variably tunable. I have not beat the drum loud enough.

I know it may look sometimes like I'm making clubs, the ma700 club and the sherwood club, but this is only for the sake of finding a common bond of simplisty. Taking my system down to two power supplies is remarkable, and although I know some of you guys have more than that every time I hear someone heading toward one or two less supplies I know how big the change is.

well michael your here to tune our systems

Nope, your here to tune your systems. I'm just a guy with a goal to change an industry and happen to be privileged enough to make some tuning goodies for you. Sometimes I wonder if you guys know how important TuneLand is. Your paving the way of the future audiophile industry. You guys have no idea how much these readers out there are hoping you have the greatest of success. They have been trying all their lives and you guys are doing it. Your getting closer to the music than anyone at anytime in the history of this industry has . You guys are not making a fixed choice but tuning the audio signal.

I truly hope that Harold and I can make this next step happen. I've tried but this is no small step. Every day I'm faced with telling someone that a $100 receiver and a $29 player will beat up on their 25k-500k systems. That's a challenge, but it's also the truth. If the industry wouldn't have taken the turn it did I wouldn't be put in this position, but it did and I am. And I will help whoever comes, but I hope I don't water down the message by being looked at as a accessory guy.

I want you to know I do understand the emotional investment, but I can either spend my time being a counselor or a designer. It takes one listen for an open minded music lover to buy into the tune, it takes a life time for the typical audiophile to buy in. Somewhere I have to draw the line or this will never get to the place it needs to be and that means the audiophile will not get to their dream.

If you remember years ago when we were on a roll and even before tuneland a guy would come to me with their system and I said, you need this system instead, and honestly most of the time that listener dumped his old and took on the new. This will happen again as the excitement builds. I mean come on who can't afford these components and give tuning a try? I really think that it's ego, and that's a problem that's deeper than the tune. Watch what happens when 20 people are on tuneland talking about their tuned system. In this industry that's a flood.

I want to also make another point though. See how I never push Garp in a direction. That's because I can sense his listening and agree with him that he is the master of his system. I can feel his music as if I were there, and know that he needs his system to be a certain way. I know I would walk in his room and not want to leave for a while.  So I'm not saying my choice is for everyone, my choice is for everyone to find their choice and I can usually tell when someone has arrived or is still in that stage where they are close but still may not have the right combo. That's when you'll see me push a little. It's like there are certain triggers that get pulled and I on this end can see someone is in a little trouble. At that point it's really hard for me cause I hate to have anyone think I know more than they do or am trying to push them around. It's not that at all, it's things someone might say about the sound or the way a system reacts, where it sends me a signal Idea . It's like knowing that this part is fighting that part and I'm only trying to help that listener get out of their trap. It may come off judgemental but I guess I am being asked to be a music judge as people ask me what I think. But I have to be truthful and say I think about these things all day long and try to figure out how not to offend many times. It's like I can hear their system on the other side, but don't want to have them fall while I lift them over the fence.

I mean sometimes I read a post like http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t169p105-hiend001-s-system and say he's right, life would be a lot easier if folks did this. Then There's that other side to me that says michael be nice their going to feel picked on, but it's really not that I would want to pick on anyone, I just get excited for them.

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garp



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PostSubject: New platform   Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:53 pm

It has been quite some time since I posted although music continues to occupy some of my free time besides long distance bicycle riding. The topic of this post is the arrival of my tuning platform which is settling as I write this update. I am currently listening to my ultralight tube system composed of MR C4 preamp, MR 245.1 45 tube amp, and the trusty Maggie CD connected to 95db speakers. The amp has been placed on the smaller tuning platform which sits in front of the new larger tuning platform. Both platforms sit atop smaller spiked MGD birch platforms. Since the preamp, cd, and phono pre do not require much space, all three components easily reside on the new platform. Once this platform settles, I will set up both of my turntables and provide updates.

The first thing I noticed was way deep and tall soundstage and the big time dynamics more that would be expected from a flea powered amp. There seems to be a increase in volume. Percussion and reeded instruments sound almost live already. I am already impressed!

Thanks Michael and Harold, the wait was worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:49 pm

Hi Garp

I'm so happy Exclamation

BTW, I still have my eye out for high db drivers.

Two things I want to do after the Viola line is well on it's way is a replacement for the Chameleons (have a driver in mind already) and a high efficiency speaker.

Also just to mention we are making our hardwood tweeter plates again.

During voicing Harold and I decided to mod the tweeter all the way and do away with stock tweeter plates.

have fun!

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PostSubject: tweeter plates   Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:19 am

Michael,

I still use the original tweeter plates on my 60s. Did you change the wood?
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:46 pm

Hi Garp

You have the stock plastic?

We're going to make a few different plates, so the person can choose how they want the harmonics to sound. Right now I'm listening to the poplar plates.

With the poplar being the middle (starting point), the lower tone from the bottom are (will finalize soon), magic wood, alder, brazilian pine, western red cedar, poplar, cherry, hard maple, rosewood and I might be trying purple heart too.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:19 pm

Hi Garp

Harold here finally digging my way out from under, after the visit to Michael's. Michael says he understands the one component Mini Tuning Rack, but not so much an adjustable speaker stand.

Can you give me more of an idea from starting height to total height so MG can draw you up a proto?

thanks

Coop
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garp



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PostSubject: My low watt, low cost system   Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:36 pm

It has been awhile since I posted, but work has kept me busy with little time to enjoy music. ( I spend lots of hours on a bicycle also, but I have retired). The best part of retiring is having time to enjoy music. I began listening to two CDs early today and now enjoying music after a long day working in the yard.

Yes, I have upgraded my system with platforms, music blocks, and cabling, but I have taken a different path for electronics. My system consists of a 2 watt DHT tube amp with thin walled, high efficiency speakers with a MGD Music Ply sub using a Maggie CD and turntables as sources. Sorry, no dacs, been there and did not like it. In my 24' x 22' man cave, this little 2 watt amp easily gets me to 80+ DB listening with full MGD acoustic treatment, but 2 watts will not offer the sound Sonic enjoys for a full classical piece. However, that is not my main focus as I am more of a Highend type user listening to jazz, pop, and small classical pieces. What I have discovered is the better the room is acoustically treated, the less need for amp power. As the MGD wire breaks in the volume actually increases in my room giving my little 2 watt amp a steroid like boost.

I am currently breaking in some MGD wire and I can always tell that we are getting close when music begins to surround me and escapes the boundaries of the speakers. I am on my 4th CD tonight and music has finally escaped the speakers and begins to open in height and width. And the tone, yes it is beginning to open up.

We all take different paths to enjoy music and Michael's tools are very valuable in helping get the best out of our systems.

Happy Listening,
Garp
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:37 am



Greetings Garp!

Good to hear from you and how you now have time to enjoy music!

What's the tubes in your 2W DHT amps -- did you build them yourself? It will be nice to get more description of your system.

Is the MGD cable you are burning in the new ones from Michael with the plain copper conductors?

For Sonic, I still use Mr Green's earlier tin-plated copper cables and for some reason they go better with my system than plain copper. The earlier Picassos and Bare Essence are, to my ears, warmer and more relaxed sounding.

Sonic

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PostSubject: System Update   Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:39 pm

Sonic,

My amp is a Yamamoto A08 clone using RCA 45s and an 80 rectifier and 717a pentode tubes. The original Yamamoto was quite popular 10 years ago, but like many heavily reviewed amps interest wanes as time passes and there is no importer currently representing Yamamoto audio in the states. Over the years, there has evolved many skilled craftsmen that build these specialty amps and offer their clones at a fraction of the cost of the original. There were many popular reviews of this amp and my clone exhibits the strengths of the original amp including speed, clarity, and tone. I have used this amp with an active preamp that does add some color and also a passive pre with 12 Db of gain. The passive is breaking in with Michael's all copper speaker cable and ICs. The newer cables are much smaller in diameter compared to your cables and they are breaking in nicely. Your older cables are very popular in the states currently as many have converted from silver or silver plated cables to all copper or tinned copper for the reasons you offered. My speakers were the entry level Tonian speakers that are no longer available as the Fostex driver is extinct. The ribbon tweeter does not work well with tinned copper which caused listening fatigue with an over emphasis of sibilance in both male and female voices. Michael's new cables have tamed the sibilance to my liking.

My sources include the original Maggie DVD player sitting on a top tuning platform with various woods including poplar, magic wood, and spruce. Several years ago, I picked up a used ZYX Artisan phono preamp at a fraction of original purchase price. This small wood encased Jfet preamp can be run on battery or electrical. I found that electric always worked best, so it is always plugged into a electrical source. I still have many turntables, but my everyday TTs are a German Acoustic Solid string drive and a highly modded Merrill Heirloom/Ortofon arm using Ortofon 2M Blacks in both tables. George Merrill, the creator of Merrill tables lives within driving distance, and I plan to update the belt drive table before the end of year. Oh yes, the Artisan phono pre did benefit from sitting atop a tuning block extending the soundstage. This pre seems to be sensitive as it would not work with springs or points with the soundstage closing down and a degradation in sound.

To support the bass, the MGD Music Ply sub has been included using the Paradigm crossover with tuning blocks pushed by a mono block class ab amp. My large listening room does not seem to limit the volume of my small, 2 watt amp, and I am noticing that as the wire and components burn in and settle, the volume seems to increase. I suspect the MGD acoustic treatments are helping.

My evolution to less powerful tubed amps began many years ago as I searched for used components that were light in weight and could be tuned to some extent. I have bought and sold many components over the years keeping those units that served my music interests. The Maggie DVD and my turntables have remained a constant for many years and will not be replaced. Michael's tuning products including platforms, wire, tuning blocks, and the full set of room treatments are a constant. I have always liked Michael's emphasis on using lighter weight components and nearly all woo speakers and this concept has worked well for me.

Garp


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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:35 am

Hi Garp

Your going to see George this year? Be sure to tell him hi for me!





Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:34 am

I also wanted to make this comment about the cable. I don't bring it up much cause I don't want folks to get confused. But, I still have people order different mixes of my cable. Meaning folks like my method of making the cable, but they may want a certain custom blend. For example some may like a mix of "white" and the regular BE and Picasso. Some like to have me mix my tinned and even my stranded.

I did a system 3 weeks ago where the guy used my tinned for the positive and my bare copper for the negative. I also have some guys who dig my stranded. I do have my preference, but it's been interesting seeing the different blends people ask for.

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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:10 am


Greetings Garp cheers

Thanks for describing your system in such detail. Fascinating! Do you find the Ortofon 2M Blacks to be touchy about VTA and could emphaise record noise like scratches and ticks 'n' pops if the VTA is not just so? This is what Sonic is given to understand and the reason why I stayed with my Ortofon 2M Blue.

Greetings Michael

Some of your customers used tinned for one conductor and your pure copper wire for the other Question What effect will this have -- Sonic does not see the logic of this. In my town I know of one audiophile who uses what he calls "Super Pure" 16 AWG Litz wire for one terminal and solid core silver wire of 22 AWG for the other terminal. A rather off the wall idea IMO Rolling Eyes

Sonic


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PostSubject: Update   Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:42 pm

Sonic,

Ortofon 2M Blacks have not given me problems from record noise like scratches and ticks, but my records are clean. I do have a record cleaner that is used after purchasing used records; however, careful inspection of used records for sale often are clean. I do take care when setting up the VTA which must contribute to my lack of noise.

There have been many complaints for various issues regarding the 2m Black that I have not experienced. My biggest complaint is it continues to steadily increase in price here in the States.

Michael, George is one of a kind that I enjoy discussing his turntable ideas. He has shared that my Heirloom is as good as his most recent high end table.


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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:19 pm

Hi Garp

Yep, some of these unique designers that came from that era are pretty special folks. It was a great community of playback minds.

Hi Sonic

I'm going to copy & paste your remarks over to your page for the cable Q&A. I don't want it to get confusing for visiting readers.

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PostSubject: System update   Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:43 pm


One of the advantages of retirement is one has time to feel the freedom from a set work schedule with weekends crammed in for a small amount of personal enjoyment. Retirement has opened more opportunities to explore my room and speaker placement and source listening. My listening room is 24' x 22' and up until a few weeks ago, I was listening near field or speakers placed 2/3 distance from the front wall. The speakers are now far field about 1/3 distance from the front wall and spaced over 10' apart. After settling, the soundstage width really opened up giving the ability to hear details outside the speakers that I have not previously heard.

The addition of a passive preamp has been become a new realization for me. Using a tubed preamp for many years, it did not occur to me that I was missing a great amount detail in the music. My passive preamp or I call the truth has shown me how much of a killer source the Maggie CD player really is. Micro and macro dynamics previously covered up by a tubed preamp are unleased. To see if my dust collecting CD player with asynchronous upsampling would sound better I pulled it out of the closet. After much warmup, I played a favorite CD, but could not listen more than half way into the CD as the digital glare fatigued me. Yes, it had detail but the expense of glare. The Maggie quickly went back into the system and my sonic bliss returned. The past week, I have been pulling out all of my SEP, DHT, and triode amps to match with the passive and all show their positive sonic signatures without the tubed preamp mask. It is very easy for me to sit in the sweet spot and enjoy a CD from beginning to end with the passive preamp, Maggie, and a tube amp.

Class D amps have finally gotten into highend. Six Moons review of the Spec amp of Japan just received a 6moons Blue Moon award and it interesting to see the use of spruce and maple attached to the bottom of this amp. Hmm, maybe alittle Michael Green watching? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/spec/1.html
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PostSubject: Re: Old Tunee - Newer System   Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:48 pm

This is "wonderful"!

Maybe you'll be doing more writing. I would love it!

about 6moons

I believe that the hobby is finally starting to get the hang of things.

study

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