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 Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)

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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)   Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:29 am

The kit I was thinking of was the TunePak

https://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/roomtune

Not sure anyone has ever painted these. They are usually attached with pushpins with drywall.

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PostSubject: Re: Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)   Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:49 am



Greetings Bierfeldt!

Checking in – have you been able to improve the bass extension in your system with any of the things Michael or Sonic suggested?

Sonic


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Bierfeldt



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PostSubject: I am slow   Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:56 pm

I missed that this went to a second page.  Saw you guys replied and I was confused that I didn't see responses.  Not my strongest moment.  
So, I have been messing around with placement for the past four hours and have found the perfect spot.  See the attached photo.  I think the key is that the port in back is not aimed at the windows so I am getting very full bass.  Imaging is spectacular.  Deep and wide soundstage and if I listen to something recorded in Q sound it is mind boggling.  

Compared to the original placement, I am maybe 2' further apart and an additional 9" off of the back wall.  1M in front of the speakers I am getting that same dip and peak.  At my listening position measured frequency response is much flatter.

I did move the speakers closer to the wall but the soundstage became less coherent and sound became much more localized to the speaker.  

I have been working on my own speaker designs and you are seeing the optimal placement for the more premium speakers.  They are kicking the ever living crap out of my revels in term of soudstage and detail.  The ones in orange are still a work in progress.  Not a large enough vent in the internal brace and it is choking off bass just a bit.  

Incidentally the balance of the system has changed a bit too.  



Michael, I do want to get a Room Tune Kit.  What do I need to do to order a RoomTune TunePak in Beige?
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Sonic Voyager



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PostSubject: Re: Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)   Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:26 am


Greetings Bierfeldt

Congratulations! So happy that what Sonic suggested went towards solving your problem with the bass. Music ain’t nothing if it ain't got a good bass tone to give scale and weight.

About your DIY loudspeaker: Sonic wonders why have you chosen to build another mini-monitor design (like your Revels) instead of a floorstander with maybe a 12 inch woofer? Or perhaps alternatively an Open Baffle design?

Sonic


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Bierfeldt



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PostSubject: Not so much DIY   Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:46 pm

These speakers are not really DIY and more prototype for production models.  The cabinet materials are unique.  There are a few products that are similar but no one is using the core material I am that I can find.  And competition is outrageously expensive with the cheapest bookshelf speakers I can find using the same sort of materials starting at about $9500.  I opted for standmount / bookshelf first for a variety of reasons:  
1. They are less complex with a simpler crossover.
2. The Revels served as a high quality reference that I needed to beat to justify a price premium
3. The cabinet materials are viciously expensive so mistakes and refinements are dramatically less costly than for a floorstander

Currently I am working on subwoofers and early next year will start on a floorstanding model or two.  I am 100% certain I will do a floorstander with two 8" woofers and may look at other designs.  I will be at AXPONA under the brand name Verdant next year.  

Open baffle's are interesting.  I heard the Pure Audio Project Quintet 10 Voxativ over the weekend at the NYAS.  They sounded fabulous and look really cool.
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Sonic Voyager



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PostSubject: Re: Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)   Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:39 am


Hello Bierfeldt

Good that you are creating speakers that offer technology and performance at sensible prices. Today’s equipment are priced at levels that are far beyond any relation to the quality they offer.

Sonic understands and has read the debates round the alternate approaches of using a pair of small woofers (eg: 2 x 8”) or employing one large one (eg: 1 x 12”). My JBL 4365-fan friend says there is nothing like one Big Woofer driven with a strong magnet for bass extension and slam.

Your views briefly on this woofer debate, if you please?

Sonic



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Bierfeldt



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PostSubject: In my opinion   Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:01 am

This is a hard question - bluntly, I haven't done critical listening on a speaker with a large, single bass driver in more than 7 years which is about when I lent my Infinity Kappa 8.1s to my ex-wife's cousin. I suspect I will not be recovering those.

I have read up on the subject but for that reason, I can offer theoretical POVs but those are worth exactly what you and I paid for them. If there was a clear, objective, technical answer this wouldn't be a debate. From memory, I really liked some speakers that had single, large bass drivers. I love Infinty speakers. I don't know if I liked them better or worse than the speakers I hear today with smaller, multiple drivers. .

Ultimately, consumers today seem to want narrower profile speakers. I am trying to make money so I plan to give consumers what they want. If I get to a point where I can experiment more with cabinet designs I will likely consider a large, side firing woofer and a large front firing woofer. That will be a while though since carbon fiber is VERY expensive and those prototypes will cost me $10K per pair.


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PostSubject: Re: Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)   Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:06 am

Congrats on the speaker designing cheers

Will this be your first show as a designer? You'll have tons of fun!

On the tunes just email me mgtune@yahoo.com and I'll hook you up. And sorry for the late response this fall season has been nuts. I'm running about 2 weeks behind on getting back to folks.


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PostSubject: It will be my first show as a designer   Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:19 am

No worries about being busy. Busy is good. Means your making money and will be able to continue helping all of us.

Yes, this will be my first show as a designer and hopefully importer. AXPONA will be the official launch of Verdant Audio though I will have a soft launch March 1st . Right now I am looking at two lines of speakers which will be the same design but made of different materials and using different drivers to hit two different price points.

I was looking at a third that was going to be 3D printed in carbon fiber reinforced thermoplastic. They look amazing but have been more challenging to get right. I am exploring other bracing options and internal sound dampening options but the walls are not rigid/damped enough yet. When I find the right materials/right format printer, that will be exciting, at least for production of stand mount speakers.

Also, I have reached agreement and am in process of finalizing a distribution deal with a maker of tube amps. Things aren't official yet so I can't share the name but it is a brand who has a great reputation for quality but has been out of the US for a few years. That might be finalized as soon as next week.


My thinking is I probably need 4 CornerTunes, 4 EchoTunes and 4 XXLTs. I would have a CornerTune and EchoTune in each corner and the XXLTs on the side walls. My only question is should I get an extra pair XXLTs to position behind the speakers since there will be a wall of windows?
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PostSubject: Re: Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)   Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:42 am

I would get the extra XXLT's. You may end up putting them behind the TV, but you'll find the right spot.


Your show will be here before you know it. You know my first show was in Vegas (CES) we did 83 rooms with RoomTune, crazy!

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PostSubject: 83 Rooms   Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:54 am

That is a good show! Also illustrates that the products work. You only get one chance to make a first impression and if you did 83 Rooms at your first show, that is a hell of a first impression. I need this to be very positive. Making sure the room is treated correctly will go a long way. Having an agency brand will be wonderful but having a "successful" line of speakers that I design and market is a dream.

I am very happy with my current soundstage in my room. Particularly in terms of depth. Width is good, depth is spectacular. On multiple occasions I have heard sound coming from behind me that has startled me. And it wasn't always a Q Sound recording. The question then is how do I being that to life flawlessly in a hotel room.

Four and a half months is no time at all and I have a ton of work to get done in that time. In the immortal words of Jerry Reed "We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there." Getting things like this in is critical. I will have a few months to play around and get it just right in my own room and get a better understanding of how sound will react to the different panels. Assuming this deal gets done next week I am going to be starting from scratch with two new AMPS, one SET and one Push Pull. I am hoping the Push Pull will behave similarly to my current amps but I have no idea how the SET is going to behave.

Plus, for the first time I am going to be experimenting with vibration control. I am going to offer a "Silver Reference" edition of the speakers where I am going to use silver binding posts and silver wire internally. How are they going to differ from copper in sound? There are so many variables. I need to get my arms around all of them so I can be ready, have a good show and set myself up for success.

What do I need to do to get these ordered? Obviously I need to set up an account. How should we proceed? I am going to go with the 6 XXLs.
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PostSubject: Re: Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)   Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:20 am

Just send me an email mgtune@yahoo.com and we'll get the order rolling. I do either paypal or check on direct orders.

Also, when Christmas is over we can talk about your show room and maybe I'll have some hints that might help. Main thing for starters though is get that equipment burning in asap. Trying to get a system to gel at the show in a half a day is a challenge. First shows there's a big learning curve so start thinking about your second show now. A lot of folks that do their first show don't have the luxury I did, and the need for a product like mine when RoomTune came out. I had reviewers already using my stuff, and lots of momentum going in so it was fairly easy for me. It was like handing out candy and that's what I did for the next several years. Anyone who wanted Tuned got Tuned. Today, the hobby is a lot different and the main thing to think about is who are you trying to appeal to. Back in the old day people sought us out, today it's more the product is trying to seek out the potential client. Roles have reversed. Back in 1990 you would get hundreds of orders at a show and have the problem of making enough. Now it's quite a different story for new folks.

Second be realistic. If you don't have about $200,000.00 to bank on the first couple of years think seriously about jumping in. Here's an example for speaker builders. A company fairly well regarded that has a $10,000.00-$25,000.00 speaker range if lucky will sell about 10-12 pair of speakers a year (if lucky). That's after 10 or so years of exposure. Being realistic will save you a small fortune "hype is not reality". Everyone wants to project they are doing well, but that can be your worst enemy. I actually have several people come to me a year with start ups asking for help and advice. The first thing I ask them is let me look at your website. If they don't already have a website and a stable "about page" I tell them there's little anyone can do for them. This hobby has tons of opportunities if you have the bank. But if you have good intentions and no website, ad budget or already established reputation the hill to climb will be an expensive one.

At the same time if you have the bank and can sustain it it's a ton of fun jumping in.

I have a ton more to share but have to run for now. Hope this is a little helpful and not too up-hill-ish. I love my listening clients who have become good friends and have made my own personal audio journey a dream come true. Tuning their systems has been the joy of my life and honor. I have admittedly chosen the tough road, but I wouldn't have done it any other way. Only a very few people do the whole chain and most have gone broke doing it, but for myself being able to know the whole chain and explore every inch of it as I go is the key to listening success as well as designing success. Others have found their success focusing on a few products or niche sound, and that's cool too I'm sure. We're all different as designers and that makes audio life fun.

talk to you soon

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PostSubject: Fortunately   Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:58 pm

First off...I do have the cash which helps.  Second, I will be selling at price points well below $10K.  I will have two products that will drift above $10K but they will be introduced at an appropriate time assuming I have a little traction.  My other items will be below that and my entry level pair of speakers will retail at about $2500.  

The items are differentiated a bit from most speakers in terms of parts and to a lesser extent design. Products made of similar materials are much more expensive. If I could sell 50 units across the 5 or 6 products I will offer I would count that a big win and would recoup my expenses.  Certainly not enough to live on but fortunately, this is not my full time gig and I have the luxury of taking it slow.    

Before AXPONA I will be bringing up my brand site and an e-commerce site.  When it is up I will share with you.  My agency is in the final stages of completing branding work for me and I do have a plan for marketing.  I am not so silly as to think that if I build a website, people will magically find it and buy from me.  Additionally, it looks like the deal closed earlier with the Tube Amp company from the UK I will be importing.  I will likely have a press release on this early next year.  They historically were selling 20-30 units a month in the US when they were last distributed here in 2014.  I know I will be well short of that at first but it is something to build to.  And it will provide incremental cash flow as I work to build the speaker brand.  

Now, making a positive impression on the trade and consumers in the coming months is the first step on a long journey to success.  Will send the e-mail to you and happy to pay via paypal.  I am all setup for that.
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PostSubject: Re: Bierfeldt's System (new to Tunelend)   Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:50 pm

20-30 units a month is Huge Shocked  Shocked , holy smokes. I don't know anyone doing that much in the US.

Yep, I think the above 10k market is in big trouble, but the designers aren't admitting it. Well behind the scenes they do, but in the public eye they're not letting on how much the high end is declining. High end is in free fall.

I would agree, 50 units is a nice goal.

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PostSubject: Below $10K   Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:50 pm

I think the key to all of this is to offer products above $10K and if those sales happen it is a win but not to count on it. Count on sub $5K equipment. I have seen that in terms of volume, the market is down but people are premiumising with average price per unitrising. Latest #s I have seen is that unit volume is down 13% while revenue is up 13% in electronics broadly.
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