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MGA

MGA

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PostSubject: Scott's System   Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:31 am

Hello,

I just discovered your site. There is so much info here, I'll be a while digesting some of it. Wondering if I could get a price on  the RoomTune TunePak to get  started.

Hello Michael,

Thank you for the quick reply!  Looking at your site I feel like I've been hit with a tidal wave of information!  Absolutely fascinating.

I've been looking for audio bliss for about 40 years and feel like I'm finally getting closer.  I've attached a few pictures of my listening room.  I'm  in a small basement room with cement floors roughly 12x14 with 7.5 ft ceiling.  The walls are designed to resist water damage. The best I can describe them is like dense drywall with a wallpaper covering. Hopefully, if you wouldn't mind, can offer a few suggestions as to what to do next.

So far the only thing I've done relating to what I've found on MGA is to move my speakers into what I thought might be pressure zones on the side wall and moved my listening position more toward the rear wall. I'm getting a sound stage now, just would like to make if bigger and of course overall better sound.  I'd say its the best sound I've ever heard in my house, but I'm sure more can be done. You may notice from the pics that I've got some GIK panels and basstraps as well as some diffusors.  I was told by a customer of yours that he started with the tunepack and had excellent results.  Also, if you wouldn't mind including a price sheet on spike and cones  and platforms I'd appreciate it.

If it makes a difference my current system  consists of...

SOTA  turntable, audiomods  tonearm, grado green cartridge
Antique  audio USA phono preamp
Schiit audio Modi  multibit dac fed by a raspberry pi network  streamer
Decware SE84UFO  tube amp Betsy Baffle speakers.  






Scott
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Sonic Voyager



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:01 am



Welcome to the Tune Scott!

Nice compact room and system you have. Good move to use the side wall pressure zones. That was what transformed my system after Sonic wrestling with all the Rule of Thirds, various placement calculations and so on. Being close to the side walls gave me bass and the wide spacing of my panel speakers had no "hole in the middle" effect. That (along with "first reflection points") is an audiophile myth or over-statement arising from poorly set up equipment.

A question: how far down the length of your room are your Betsy Baffles?

I ask because when you get to the halfway point (or near it), there will be a serious bass suckout. This is simply a function of how standing waves build up between the parallel surfaces of all rooms. In my room it was a big loss of energy at 51 hz. Of course if you have a subwoofer placed somewhere else, this notch can be used to your advantage. But with speakers systems without subs, placing the speakers near the side walls and at the 1/3 or 1/5 lengths will avoid the steep bass notch and give a nice bass balance.

Sonic



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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:23 am

Thanks Sonic,

I've got the speakers roughly 6' from the back wall, so almost halfway. Funny you mention the 51hz problem. I've been doing measuring with REW and noticed a big suckout at 50hz every time. Tried three different speaker systems and the suckout was always there. I haven't varied the speaker position all that much until now, so I should probably measure again. I was surprised by the amount of bass these little speakers were able to produce. I currently have my sub disconnected.

I'll try the 1/3 and 1/5 positions and see how it goes.

Scott
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rotelguy

rotelguy

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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:48 pm

Welcome to TuneLand Scott!

We left Michael's a few minutes ago. He's doing his New Year count down. Wanted to stop by your thread and say hello. You'll have fun here.

Happy New Year!
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:33 pm

Hi Guys

A very busy last few weeks, but I think the season may be starting to settle down, after CES of course. I'm hoping tonight I can take a look at Scott's system cause I've been wanting to wrap my ears around it a little bit.

see you soon, thanks

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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:16 am

Hi Scott

Is this your model of Betsy Baffle?



BTW, I find this shape extremely attractive! Many years ago I came out with a line called the Deco Series that sold on a "Mod" site. The line was short lived as I had already had too many irons in the fire, but one of the shapes was like the speakers you have, very cool.

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Last edited by Michael Green on Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:21 am

Yes sir,

Just a little different finish is all.
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:39 am

Well, they're just as cool as can be!

So I'm going to start this by what I see when I look at the room and system and then you can help me with the sound.

For example



When I take a look I'm thinking tuning the upper corners, mid seams and corners of the room.

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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:46 am

" I've attached a few pictures of my listening room.  I'm  in a small basement room with cement floors roughly 12x14 with 7.5 ft ceiling."

Is that carpet on the floor Scott? Does it have a padding? I see the rug but what is the rest of the flooring?

thanks

I might have a few questions bear with me study

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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:16 pm

I really like the Betsy's. As it turns out, where I have them for listening is right in front of the two doors, so it's nice that they are so easy to move. Only takes a few seconds to set up.

I've got two rugs, fairly thin about 8x5. The dark covering is some 3/4" foam we used to cover the entire room. The foam was sold at Meijer and in a kit that fit together like puzzle pieces to use as a temporary flooring for a kids playroom. Years ago, the room was just that - a kids playroom. I pulled up the foam covering where the equipment is located to make it easier to move things around and to make the rack more stable.

Wondering if I keep the existing treatments, get rid of all or something in between.
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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:33 pm

"Wondering if I keep the existing treatments, get rid of all or something in between."

There are a few listening field trips I'd like to take with you, then I can better advise. Are the backs of the RPG type panels flat? If so can you take two of them and put them, flat side up, and place your Betsy on them and tell me what you hear?

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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:23 pm

Sorry, I don't know what you mean by RPG. Do you mean the 2x2 wooden diffusers or the 4x2 fabric covered absorbers?
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:24 pm

The 2x2 wooden diffusers. I'd like to hear the Betsy's with a platform, of sorts, underneath them.





study

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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:37 pm

I went ahead and tried it last night after realizing RPG makes wooden diffusers. I noticed improvements in definition and bass volume was increased a bit. The soundstage size did not change as far as I could tell. Listening to the sun king, the crickets started just above the right speaker, then panned to the left and receded toward the back and ended up in front of the back wall just beyond the left speaker. The speakers were in the same spot, at least within an inch or so. I'll listen more tonight and hopefully be able to give you more to go on.

thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:38 pm

Yes, please do give a report as it settles a little. Doing the Sun King cricket referencing will be perfect.

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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:53 pm

I did a reset of sorts. I took out almost all of my room treatments. I left the ones in the ceiling - two GIK panels and 4 gridfusors. Went around and loosened up receptacle plates, equipment screws etc. I took the modi 2 out of the case and put the amp, dac and a California Audio labs cd transport on a shelf on the floor. I had compared the cd transport and my raspberry pi previously and didn't notice much of a difference, but with the cover off the cd transport and the screws loosened up its much better than the raspberry pi. Both are running through the modi 2. The sound continued to open up and improve as I made changes. The soundstage did shrink after pulling out the diffusors, but seems lately to be growing again - mostly deepening, not increasing left to right.

I decided to just run the Betsys on the floor while I continued to tune. It's been several days since I made any changes and things seemed to be settling in. So, I decided to try a platform under the speakers again. Instead of using the diffusors, I used two chair mats - the things you put on the floor in front of your desk so you don't ruin the carpet. These things happen to be made out of bamboo. I bought them a few years ago because I was tired of the plastic ones falling apart every year or so. Anyway, I didn't expect much, but the difference was pretty amazing. Most noticable was the bass. It was extended beyond what I though the Betsy's were capable of. Further, details were more apparent, the music had a foundation, most things seemed clearer. The sound overall seemed fuller as well. Previously, I was frequently annoyed by thinness or harshness, but not any more. I think I'll try these for a few days and then try the diffusors as a base unless you have some other ideas.

So, it seems a platform is helpful in my case. The only problem I have is that the speakers in their present location need to be moved out of the way when I'm not in the room. If I can find a good sounding spot that is out of the way, then of course no problem. My mind is swimming with ideas about flooring now.

Thinking about my next steps, would you recommend proceeding with the tune products you mentioned earlier?
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:07 am

Hi Scott

Any chance of sending me pictures to post?

Those first steps into the tune are pretty exciting. The ideas do indeed start to flow in our brains Idea

Scott
"Thinking about my next steps, would you recommend proceeding with the tune products you mentioned earlier?"

mg
Yes, it's a safe bet now.

Now we know a little more about freeing up your energy Acoustical, Mechanical and Electrical and that your total system has enough energy to be tuned. It will be fun to watch the Betsy respond to their new world as we move forward.

study


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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:22 pm

Here is a shot of the floormat.  Roughly 4x4




Under the Betsy



And a shot of my shelf - actually a leaf from a table - which I may need soon.  The CAL Delta on the left, then the unboxed Modi 2, SE84UFO, then a Zstage which is part of my analog setup. I'm thinking a nice MGA platform would be good here.




Lastly is my unboxed Aragon 47k phono stage. I didn't have a small enough piece of wood handy.  I loosed up the rca jacks a bit, but in order to get it out of the case completely I'll have to do some soldering. Not sure I'm ready for that yet.  I do have a new phono stage on order, but I can cancel the order if this thing can be tuned.

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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:51 pm

Someone left this on my porch!!



Its the MVD2100

I think I need some wood blocks...

One question. Since I have cats that are always curious, I can't leave it plugged in all the time like this. Would I be better off putting in back in the case so it can run 24/7 and tune it like that or tune it out of the box, but only plug it in when in use?
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Sonic Voyager



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:47 am


Hello Scott

If Sonic may, I would ask you to think twice or thrice before carrying out any tune that exposes components and wiring with live mains. Any improvement in sound will be outweighed by the risk to your cats, family members or yourself. The greatest point of risk will not be next week when you are at your most vigilant but after six months or a year on when we (Sonic included) forget the tweaks have done and the danger associated with them. I nearly had a life-threatening accident this way, so my offer of caution here is from personal experience.

After that close call I swore off any open chassis tunes. All my equipment are in their casings with top and bottom covers on but they have cut cable ties, loosened fixing screws for circuit boards, transformers and casings, all excess rubbery material (except when used for electrical insulation) removed. Where any piece of gear has mains cable deforming strain reliefs which affect the sound, Sonic modifies the strain relief clips so the cable is able to slide a little in the clip but there is no stress on the electrical connection itself.

This way, when my furry friends (I have them too) come into the room, there is no danger to them. And I can leave the equipment powered up all day before my weekend listening "Big Sessions" with minimal risk.

Similarly may I offer these thoughts to our fellow-tunee Lattis.

Sonic

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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:33 pm

Thank you Sonic. Good advice to be sure.

On another note. The deep freeze in my area is just about over, so I wanted to venture out to Home Depot and pick up some Builders paper to cover some of the ceiling tiles. I was curious about how many should be covered and if a pattern of covered vs non-covered tiles would be advised. I have about 35 2x2 tiles in my room.

thanks
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Sonic Voyager



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:57 am


Hi Scott

From reading your posts Sonic understands that you have removed all the sound treatment you used previously such as the diffusors and absorbers but have yet to install Michael's Corner Tunes, Echo Tunes and Tune Strips.  If this is so, the best course of action might be to leave your room as it is and install those goodies from Mr Green first.  They work very well and you might be so happy that you declare yourself a Satisfied Tuner and be done.

Of course, if you are like Sonic and love experimenting, here are some ideas:

a.            Builders' Paper works well on glass panes.  They reduce the high-pass filtering effect of glass but they themselves are not absorptive.  Exposed to light, they harden and get brittle (as I discovered).  And their effect on the sound will have changed long before the brittleness is discovered.  For Sonic, they did not tame my room -- in fact my toughest period fighting the room was with this stuff on the windows. When I went back to bamboo blinds on the windows, the tuning became easy and Sonic got my room fixed quickly.

b.            Consider what your starting point is.  Have you tested your room to hear if it is too bright, OK or dull?  You can clap your hands and walk around -- "thwack" with an overhang or echoes means the room is too bright,  a dull "thwup" might indicate an overdamped room.  Talk to someone using your mobile from the room.  If you start talking louder to hear yourself, the room is ringy and bright.

c.            If your room sounds ringy and bright, even with the tiles (which I assume are somewhat absorptive) introducing Builders' Paper might be the wrong thing to do.  If your room is too dull, then you can add the paper to the tiles to increase reflection in a checkerboard (alternating papered and non-papered tiles) manner at the end of the room where you sit.  Do this for the tiles maybe a 1/4 way of the length of the room and listen for a few days and see if the sound is to your liking. Then add more or remove some sheets of the paper.

d.            When you start installing Michael's gear, it will be best to remove the Builders' Paper so you can hear what the effect of Michael's pillow products are.  

Sonic

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hifitone



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:55 am

Hi Sonic,

Yes, I've now removed all the old room treatments. I had a few left in the ceiling and took those out today and thought I'd try the builders paper at the same time while I'm working on the ceiling. So, I only did four tiles and I have extras to replace after I get Michael's room treatments.

I think the room might just slightly to the dull side, though I should probably pay some attention to it again as I keep making changes. I was thinking about replacing the foam flooring in the front of the room again. I took it out after I got an audio rack since I didn't want it to "teeter" on the foam. Now I think I may use a shelf or something similar under the rack to distribute the weight better.

Could you elaborate on the blinds you used? Are they slatted, woven, do they have a backing? I assume they are real bamboo and not faux wood that seems popular now. I've been looking for some since you mentioned it.

Scott
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Sonic Voyager



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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:25 am


hifitone wrote:

Could you elaborate on the blinds you used? Are they slatted, woven, do they have a backing?  I assume they are real bamboo and not faux wood that seems popular now.  I've been looking for some since you mentioned it.

Greetings Scott

The blinds that I am using were originally an Ikea item but one that has since been discontinued. No worry as there are many similar products available.

These blinds are slatted and made out of bamboo strips. When I was looking for blinds, Sonic went looking for real wood slats specifically. For my set up, see the picture I posted on December 7, 2018:
http://tuneland.forumotion.com/t438-audio-adventures

If you ever follow Sonic's rather long and convoluted Tune Journey, you will find that I originally used bamboo blinds on my windows but then as I read the Tuning of others on this Forum who used Builders' Paper to reportedly good effect, Sonic got weak-minded and switched to paper. It was a detour lasting a long time before I came back only to find that the Ikea blinds worked so much better in terms of a warm tonality compared to the Builders' Paper over the window panes.

I found that the angle of the slats (pointing up towards or downwards towards the centre of the room) are set to made a difference to the sound. For my room, Sonic sets the slats pointing downwards -- of course, your room might need the opposite or something in between for the best sound.

Sonic

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PostSubject: Re: Scott's System   Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:38 pm

Hi Scott

The Tunes will be shipped Monday I here. I'm excited to start more tuning with you.


Cool

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