What a change

Hi Michael,
I have found a significant change in the way my rig sounds (again) now that I have the new 60” DTS in place, let me explain. I decided on locations (as I stated in my last post) and I have done some serious listening to familiar CDs that I have always listed to and evaluating the differences now that I have made adjustments also I give credit to Grover Huffman’s new Sx cables that also have made a significant contribution to the changes as well. I have to say that I have been seriously stunned yesterday when I elected to force myself to listen to Pink Floyd DSOTM. I have questioned others in forums about this recording and all have agreed that it sounds like junk! It’s seriously veiled, badly constricted and lacks depth, not fun at all to listen to, so as I’ve been hearing nothing but positive new changes since I’ve gotten the new 60” DTS in place I figured that I’d torture my ears with it while I was cleaning the kitchen and be out of the way at the same time, so I put it into my CD player and walked out of the room. But what I heard sent me back in a hurry, what I HAD EXPECTED to hear was that crappy veiled choked recording but this WASN’T IT! It was clear, clean, fast, articulate, deep, and wider and had a solid bass foundation, I was so stunned that I sat down and listened to the entire disc in disbelief, was this the same unlistenable disc I had avoided listening to??? Sure was! But now it garners the accolades that have been showered on it all these years. Being the true skeptic, I put it in again today to see if it had been a fluke, well it’s no fluke it sounds great as close to analog as I remember, yes it does have short coming in the mastering but, that’s nothing it now sound s great! As I have listened to a verity of CDs from; Sheryl Crow, K.T. Tunstal, Susan Tedesce, Jon Astley, Red Rider, just to name a few, let me tell you the synergy that my rig is displaying is truly amazing and tuning has been a huge piece in that puzzle. I hearing the wood timbre from acoustic guitars, the brass when a cymbal is hit, the soulfulness when a song is sung, the changes since the new DTS have been in place and moving 1 additional 48” DTS next to my chair has helped tune my listening space better than it has (up to this point). I’ll always have room for improvement but I’ll be keeping close tabs on the forum for more ideas and Thanks for your help, the 60” DTS have made such a difference.

Hi Apogee6

Nice to hear from you after a little break. Good to see your listening is doing well and you are able to "zone" in the different parts of your room.

"Hi Michael!!!


I just discovered that you had introduced a newer product in the form of Room Tune Squares and have a very serious question concerning my tuning efforts so far. I have so greatly improved my listening experiences thru the use of you Corner Tunes and Room Tune floor standers (3) and even have what might be the only set of 60" Room Tune floor standers as well that you custom made for me and what a hell of a difference it has made for me!!!

Now my question, for years I have had discovered that I have a "slap echo" on my ceiling centered around my light fixture (that up to this point has never been addressed) but it doesn't comprise a large area. An Echo Tune could possibily be some over kill but now seeing that the Squares are available that could hit the spot just right for me. What product would you suggest that would be best to tame this pressure zone for me so that I can try to pinpoint exactly where the full zone is and alleviate it once and for all? I have a plan for some additional products to buy in the nearing future of different types but I'd like to finally take care of this, could you help me out with your recommendation please?"

In the last year many folks have been shifting their attention to the ceiling for good reason. It's the most open wall in many cases. Shifting your tonal balance and stage can be done very effectively by exploring how the room responds to the development of energy not only along this wall but also as it is a major part of the main pressure zone in the middle of every room.

If one hasn't done much with it yet I would recommend getting to know the energy that is in the pressure zones by using a RT square or EchoTune as room pressure dividers. By putting these on the ceiling it won't take long to hear what the room is doing and how easy it is to divide up pressure areas. If you look at your ceiling as a math grid you can lay out patterns to control the space around instruments and by placing 3 EchoTunes one front one back and one above you, you can open and close your stage like the lens on a camera. be careful not to over damp though and if you hear too much energy being burnt switch to a mini EchoTune.

For PZCers you can do the focus thing and a ton more as the PZC will give you the option of a whole range of flavoring.

Now you might think that obvious placement is the way to go and many times is but hunt for those hidden areas along the ceiling where you are at the edge of a pressure zone and try some things cause sometimes the edges of these zones do a ton to control the whole zone. If I'm doing quick fixes I tend to go to the basic (where the pressure build up is) placement, but if I'm taking my time I will find the areas that are affecting the shape of zone and see if it makes the buildup lesson along with opening up focus and space. It takes time and you have to turn this into a soundstage shaping game many times. But isn't that the fun of this thing any way? I love the game of listening and I think this is why so many have spent so much. Audiophiles in the past bought thinking this was going to fix acoustical problems as well. Nice thing is though, as we mature in our listening the acoustical side of things really starts to out way the equipment choosing game. More and more this is going to become the norm and we will see the hobby become alive with the art form of listening over the collecting hardware part.

Moved forward from "ceiling echo"

"Hi Michael,

I FINALLY am getting around to finding the celing echo that I've had for some time now that seems to originate in the area surrounding the light fixture in the room. After finally remembering how to "hard clap" to find the zone(s) where the echo(s) are found I have need to ask how to approach taming it (them) and wonder about the following 3 options;
I measured where the 2 echoes are and they are approx. 46" apart on a disecting plane and wonder might be the best choice of action to under take?

1). 2-Square Tunes 1 placed in each zone

2). 1-Echo Tunes placed in between the 2 zones

3). 1-Tune Strip that would cover the enire area between the 2 zones

Now the additional question comes into play would I be over damping? The zones are located 1 approx. (by my estimates) 36" @ approx 85 degree angle in front of my listening chair (which would be the back draped wall). The 2nd zone is again approx 36" from the front wall very near the room's center. IF I were using 1 Tuning Strip the angles between them would be approx.90 degrees.
I realize I might be getting way over techinal but.. with out your ability to see where I taking of I'm trying to provide as much possibile info as I can for you to formulate a suggestion for me to pursue. I've said this before and I can't say it enough, Room Tuning has not only saved me Thousands in equipment changes but has so highly increased my listening enjoyment and I can't thank you enough for your passion in pursuing this. Forever in fourms I endorse vibration contorl and room tuning as cost effective ways to make HUGE DIFFERENCES
Thank you in advance for your help, please don't ever stop in your pursuit to help the audio community.

Ray"

Hi Ray

By the sound of your thread so far it sounds like you are going after a very dry sound. I believe Sonic would call this a D on his chart.

The "Sonic Acoustical Chart"

a. Live, echoey -- uncontrolled and tonally unbalanced

b. Live, echoey -- balanced

c. Controlled -- tonally balanced

d. Damped -- tonally balanced

e. Damped -- tonally unbalanced

f. Dead -- tonally unbalanced

g. Dead -- balanced and anechoic

The drapes might even suggest a "G" in the works. Of course a "G" would be pretty extreme but depending on how much live vs dead someone likes it is still on the chart.

The more you can paint in the way of visual the better and don't worry about being too technical or descriptive. The more you reveal the easier it is to picture. This is your thread and the degree of tonal balance you go for is yours. As I said in a post above, I would use just enough to get the job done and not go over into the over damped realm, but if you do run into over doing the dampening we can start taking the process in reverse till we find that perfect spot and balance. After reading this post my mind started once again thinking "here might be another that is ready for PZC's". PZC's do the burn but they also do acoustical/mechanical vibratory tuning. Which means they take in the energy to be burnt and at the same time covert the frontal (the energy you hear from on coming pressure) into something you have control over.

If it were up to me I would visit (which I do) every ones room to get a feel for their own personal levels of desired control. In my mind I try to picture where they are and what they like as far as how much energy they like or don't like. Same goes for equipment. Personal listening ranges are huge and it's one of the reasons I listen to more than one system. The trick for me is to be able to design products that fit in to the big picture and not a small, or should I say narrow perspective. This means a training and retraining of my ears constantly. The absolute sound and the right sound for me has disappeared from my thinking long ago as I realize there are many varying degrees involved in finding that perfect personal balance.

So, I say all of this to say, go ahead and let me (us) in on your system and ideas about your taste. For example when ever someone says "drapes" I get a certain sound in my head. It's a sound heading toward dry (less ambient) structure and more analytical detail. The key here is to get analytical without getting a size of instrument or stage imbalance.

I have a buddy in Hong Kong who loves maximum control. For me this is way over kill, but for him he is wanted total analytical without sounding over damped. To achieve this he is using (hold on to your hats) 48, 48" wall mounted PZC's. Sounds insane I know but this is his idea of accurate. It's a pinpoint type of sound without an ounce of extra action going on. Basically he has created his own room that almost completely gets rid of the sound of the interaction of the walls altogether. I have another friend in India who listens in a marble room and only wants the smallest part of the corners to be gone, leaving the solid structure to give him a "inside the horn" feel.

Which degree is the right one and which sound is the universal "right" sound? I don't think it exist in the minds of anyone but the individual listeners ears. My joy is finding that flavor and degree for that person and trying to remove my preferences from the equation. I listen very closely to what you say and begin to shape a formula based on your words. But I always try to do what I do with certain things in mind and one of those is not to let I persons system enter into distortion and I think this may be what makes my approach some what different.

"Michael,

I couldn't find the techno-zone link so I'm responding here.and helping with more info for you.
What an excellent listing of tuning from Sonic! I can provide a better insight as to what I'm chasing after for you now. My room seems to be fairly damped as I have carpet down and the rear wall also has some fairly heavy drapes. Actually it is really our living room that is pretty much my dedicated listening room and used as just that alone. the room is not large measures approx. 17'9' on the front wall w/an opening of 5' 8" (leading into the kictchen). The witdht is 11' 10", On the Right back corner there is a CD Cabinent (made of Oak w/glass doors 24" from the right inside back corner and extends 8" from the side wall) 14' down the back wall (curtians hiding a picture window) is a built in book case that extends 5' into the room and has shelfs that extend up to the ceiling, with an 8' ceiling. The room is constructed using dry wall as was the ceiling when the house was built in 1964 and below the carpet floor is hardwood.
On the front wall my Sanus Euro Rack is located 53" from the door opening to the kitcken The left speaker is approx 6'5" from the side wall but that crosses inside where the kitchen opening is. the right speaker is 36.5" from the wall and HAS A CORNER BEHIND IT (where as the left speaker does not). Now my listening chair is located 6' from the front wall in front of the equip. rack. I have 4 Corner Tunes up and I have created a corner for the left speaker using;
1 64" Room Tune Stander and 1 48" Room Tune Stander creating a corner (and angled) behind the left speaker. In the right corner behind the speaker I have 1 60" Floor Stander Now flanking the listening chair are 2 48" Floor Standers The right one is 32.5" from the side wall and 24" from the back wall. The left is 34" from the book case (which is loaded with books and magazines) and also 24" from the back wall. (I can send photos of the room if it would be more helpful, just say so).
The equipmet is as follows: Top of rack has an ARC CD 3 Mk 2 sitting on Bright Star Air Mass/ Big Rock with 2 2lb brass dampers from Eden Sound and connected to the intgreted using Balanced SX ICs from Grover Huffman and a power cord (Pole Star) from Locus Designs plugged into an Oyaide out let w/ PS Audio Noise Harvester, next shelf has a Classe CAP 151 integrated amp sitting on a Bright Star Big Rock, power cord from Cryo Parts plugged into an Oyaide outlet w/ PS Audio Noise Harvester. Speakers are Apogee Slant 6s using bi-wire from Grover Huffman, all cords and speaker cables are elevated using Cable Elevators (11 in total) 3rd shelf has a Yamaha AX900U (not in use) and the base shelf has a box from Digital Designs with the 2 remotes the air pump (for the Air Mass) and The Marigo CD Damper (which I use everytime I listen to a CD). NOW an iintangable to add ....across 3 walls (Front, and Sides) are 20 (different sized) mounted fresh water fish.

So, what I'm trying (further) to acheive is to widen the sound stage, and (further) deepen the layering as well. My musical tastes are: Mostly rock (both hard and soft), Blues, New Wave & Jazz. Since I have always been aware of that "echo" from the ceiling hence my pursuit (finally) of trying to tame and or diffuse it since the Room TUnes have done such an absolute amazing job in my room, so much so that if even if 1 is so much as 1/16" from where I have them marked (with tape) that I can hear the difference. I would tend to agree that my room probably is quite damped now that you help point that out to me from Sonic's chart, but I'm also trying to extract even more more detail (and micro dynamics) from my system thru tuning in my existing room (there is very little I can change in it). Is chasing the ceiling echo going over board?
Did I provide you TIM (I know that I still forgot some details). I try to be as absolutely cost effeective as I can getting as maxium return for results as possibile, any help is very welcome, again I hope I haven't over whelmed you with info.

Ray"

Great to see Ray's pictures.

Hi Ray

When it comes to finding the diffusive and absorptive sides of a Deluxe RoomTune, it is rather easy. Tap on each side with your finger nails. The side that has a plasticky snap is the reflective side and the side that goes "thup, thup" (dull and damped) is ther absorptive side.

What does "FL" stand for?

Good that you got a sound that you like.

Sonic

Thanks to Both Michael and Sonic for your replies. I've been trying real hard with the money I've been able to accumulate and trying to plan for.
Michael, Thanks for your help getting my pictures in. Do you need a shot of the ceiling as well where that light fixture is and I can point to the spot (or area) that I think might need something? Do you think I'm try to over damp or over compensate?

Sonic, FL is my abbreviation for Floor Stander. Still wanting to make more changes with some tweaks that I found work for me as well as maybe 2 important equipment changes in the form of; Power Conditioner/regenerator and possibily a different Integrated amp from either, Audio Research, Sim Audio or a later model Classe. (hoping maybe to have a complete Audio Research system though but, Sim Audio has had very strong praise) and I need balanced inputs for the ARC CD 3 Mk 2.

Hi Ray

Yes, I'm not sure about others but pictures to me tell a huge story and are the beginning of understanding. The ceiling would be nice to look at.

Also showing the fish made an important impression on my thoughts. These are acting as wall dividers (much like Sound Shutters) being a big part of the sound. You don't have near the build up along the walls as normal, but I say this in a potential good way meaning the materials of these prizes could actually be a good basis for your diffusive needs. You lean I see more toward articulate type of equipment and not the big stage throwers but at the same time are doing room treating that controls the big. By looking at this I can see the size of your stage in my head, but descriptions will be a good thing. We might want to do the "Abbey Road" test down the road.

I would also like to add that your acoustics are not heading toward "G" in the sonic acoustical chart but more of a "D" and even perhaps leaning toward "C".

again the chart

a. Live, echoey -- uncontrolled and tonally unbalanced

b. Live, echoey -- balanced

c. Controlled -- tonally balanced

d. Damped -- tonally balanced

e. Damped -- tonally unbalanced

f. Dead -- tonally unbalanced

g. Dead -- balanced and anechoic

This is a very comfortable place and I have been there often. In fact the system I am doing in Bill333's loft would be in this same class.

I'm thinking of doing a sonic's chart for sound staging and even other charts for people to look at. Sonic himself may want to take the stab at this then I could maybe tweak it if it is ok. Reason I say tweak is because not many have a super tall ceiling like he does.

Might I make a little suggestion for down the road? Before changing equipment we might want to take a couple of looks at tuning it. I can see that we can open the equipment up quite a bit. This might be an interesting trip for you. You are leaning toward the dampened side of things with your electronics and you might want to hear what they can do heading the other direction.

Ray's room construction

Ray, thanks for giving us a description of your room construction. So many leave this out and truthfully this is one of the most important parts to the sound.

Ray, is your flooring sitting on a slab or floor joists?

Where is your general location? State, Country

Once I have this I can look up and see your weather/environment conditions and this will tell me more.

1969 was a fantastic year for building depending on what part of the states (if your in the states) you are in. Floor joist, wood studded, covered in drywall during that time is a good combo. Sadly many have ruined their rooms by adding second dry wall sheeting to it and I strongly discourage this. I was showing the ill effects of this to a client the other day and his eyes were wide open as he heard how bad his walls sounded compared to others. Your typical US stud/drywall wall that was built in most homes is far better than these terrible sounding audio rooms built on the principles of dead walls. Once these mis-lead folks fall for this it is almost all but impossible to bring a total pitch balance back into play unless you build a new studded wall on top of it.

So, I'm excited about finding out this info and getting back to you some details on your construction from a tuned view. This is where I really excel in helping folks. And this is where your sound is no matter what equipment you use.

Michael, Thanks for your review so far and here is some of the requested info you asked for (I'll get ceiling photo to you tomorrow) The house I beleive was built in 1964 and we are in Upstate New York so the weather changes as quick as a race car going thru a shacane! For the most part we are fairly tempeture controlled and keep the heat at a low 63 deggree setting and the centeral air at 73 during the summer months, in between we might have the windows open if the weather will permit, in my listening room the drapes are always closed and the windows are as well. I have read that fluxuations in temptures effect sound and I hadn't beleived it before a couple years ago but, I have found that to be very true in it's effect. The Flooring is floor joists with 1/2" to 3/4" pad under it and burber carpeting. The walls have just 1 layer of drywall. Could you tell mean what you ment by approacihng the room by (I beleive you said tuning?) and what the Abbey Road test is? As far as equipment changes I have for consideration (and why) I'm looking at a PS Audio P 3 Power Conditioner

Michael, Thanks for your review so far and here is some of the requested info you asked for (I'll get ceiling photo to you tomorrow) The house I beleive was built in 1964 and we are in Upstate New York so the weather changes as quick as a race car going thru a shacane! For the most part we are fairly tempeture controlled and keep the heat at a low 63 deggree setting and the centeral air at 73 during the summer months, in between we might have the windows open if the weather will permit, but not in my listening room where the drapes are always closed and the windows are as well. I have read that fluxuations in temptures effect sound and I hadn't beleived it before a couple years ago but, I have found that to be very true in it's effect. The Flooring is floor joists (not sure what size they are) with 1/2" to 3/4" pad under it and burber carpeting. The walls have just 1 layer of drywall. Could you tell mean what you ment by approacihng the room by (I beleive you said tuning?) and what the Abbey Road test is? I think I have been working hard on tuning and voicing? As far as equipment changes I have for consideration (and why) I'm looking twords a PS Audio P3 Power conditioner so that I have isolated ports for my digital. A Change in amp would be to accomplish the increase in staging and bass responce (if money allowed, but not with a new peice it would be used). My dream has been to have an Audio Research system if I could since day one but, I don't want to go back to seperates again and I want to preserve the all important synergy that is a must to have. As I had fished before I also discovered from your fourm and from reading that the mounted fish in such varying sizes also act as diffusers (I hope I'm saying that right) as they help to break up the pressure zones and I get to relive the experience of those times as a huge benefit. I listened to Peter Gabriel's "So" CD today that I used to use as a reference and it was back in all it's glory again, it was rich, wider and deeper and had layers and layers of depth and the music was alive again! I'm so looking forward to relistening to my favorite music again. In closing this post I beleive that my room might fall to a C or D on Sonic's chart. Thanks for the help so far.

1964 very good for that location! The floor will work it's best with less padding (none would be great) and the wood floor with that type of flooring (joist) would really open things up and give a lot more tonality. You can hang on to this for a reference if you ever change it. The burber would be the right choice of carpet for this floor but the wood would take it another level. Shag with that much padding would not have been good. Single layer of drywall on studs, thumbs up again.

By tuning, I'm talking about the ability of your room to reproduce a full range and a completed harmonic structure. Right now if you brought a guitar in your room and tune it the notes would last for about 4 to 5 seconds before starting to change pitch. The higher that number the better your accuracy. 2 is poor and 9 to 12 is outstanding.

I personally do not like heavy power strips and line conditioning at all. Almost no audio systems really need it. Power companies these days do a fair job of giving controlled power and when you squeeze this you loose tons of dynamics. Even if your power transformer is raising and dipping a little it is far better than sending it through conditioning which drains the other transformers of their full potential.

While Ray is thinking about his approach with the components (hopefully we will get a chance to explore tuning the signal) he is looking at the sound pressure on the ceiling.

here's two pics from Ray looking up



A question for you Ray,

Is the light fixture in the center of the room?

Hi Ray

You asked about the "Abbey Road Experience"

One of the ways that helps me tell where people are in their listening (as well as myself) is to take a piece of music and share it together. Posting the results of your listening to the songs of Abbey Road according to the way we have laid them out on the thread gives great insight.

here's the thread

https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t66-abbey-road-experience

Hi Michael, OK you asked for some measurements so here goes (I did a lot of them) But, first off to answer your question; no, the light fixture is not in the center of the room so I did measuring.

If you were to sit in my listening chair (facing the back wall) I measured the length of the Front wall from the right corner to the opening that enters the Kitchen which is 13'.

Now, measuring fom the Right wall to the center of the light fixture is 6'
Measuring from the Left Door opening to the center of the light fixture is 6'4"
Measuring from the Back wall to the center of the light fixture is is 5'5"

Pressure Zone #1 I measured: (would be the left one in the photo) is: 42" from the back wall & 20" to the left of center of the light fixture.

Pressure Zone #2 I measured: 66" from the back wall & 33" left of center of the light fixture

The span between the 2 zones is: 34" Angled at approx 60-70 degrees between each other (measuring from 90 degrees but, this is just an approximation, I can be way off with this one and not necessarily reliable).

And lastly my ears are approx 9' from the back wall sitting in my listening chair, directly in a straight line with the light fixture.

This is whay I wonderd if the use of 1 Echo Tune would be best to use? or 2 Square Tunes would be the best approach for this?

I know there is a ton of information here to analize but, I'm trying my best to give you all the info you might need to consider this. Thanks for helping me.

Hi Ray

So if you were to put a RT Square half way between your ears and the speakers center plane where would it end up?

My gut feeling, and the place I would start is to put one, just shy of the point I'm talking about or just over.

'Morning Michael,
Would the placement of the Square Tune be from the point where I would be seated facing the back wall? If so I think I have an idea where it might be. By the way did I over load you with too much measurements?

Hi Ray

Measurements are a good thing, but to be sure I have it right you could send me a drawing and I'll make a Smart Draw to follow along with.

Yes from your chair to the back wall.

Michael,
Can do, I'll start working on that today, as I have still more questions.

That will be great!

Hi Folks

Ray's drawing, I darkened the main lines but I'll work on a smart draw to put on here.

Hi Michael,

I have been revisiting my music that I listen to and I can tell you that the change that I had made with the 60" floor standers (from dead to diffusing) is startling as I listen to music whith the difference I'm hearing, just goes to show me what tuning does and when you are doing correctly. We have talked of a single Square Tune to tame the ceiling echo and a tentive placement between the speakers would be the choice to tame the ceiling echo, as my uneducated guess would be at actual prceived echo points? Another question also comes into play is: when placement is decided would I use the "dead side" or the diffusion side of the peice(s) we select and why?

Hi Apogee6

The idea of a RoomTune Square mounted edgewise on the ceiling is something that Sonic is going to try. Thank you for the idea.

I would have the reflective side facing the listener. Sonic has always found (in my room at least) that the absorptive side towards the listening chair cause strange dead spots in the room.

Yes you can use the RTS at the points of the echoes. But you may find that the RTS at the point of perceived echo causes the echo to shift. Don't chase the echo by adding another RTS and another. My thread describes the folly of that move. If that a running echo happens, ask Michael what to do. For Sonic, I have found that for each echo there is an axis in 3D space and when you get the right axis, the echo is removed nicely.

Sonic

Yes, as almost always is the case the barrier side (reflective side) faces the listeners.

Our terminology in the tune is somewhat different than the usual terms used in the industry. We are perhaps a little closer (or try to be) than the typical terms used in order to be able to show what is going on when tuning. Most of this comes from the fact that waves are spherical and even though they can travel along surfaces when pressures of on coming waves forces them to, and when the math is right there are a few that will travel in parallel lines, for the most part we deal with waves that look far different from the acoustical engineering text book. Basically we are way ahead of the curve .