Sonic's System

Hi Michael and fellow Zonees!

This weekend Sonic had most good listening – the thing with this set up is I can now have zero toe-in of the Magneplanars. Given that the panels are 9.5 feet apart inner edge-to-edge, and I am sitting about 5 feet away, Sonic is very off axis (between 30 to 40 degrees) to the tweeters but with the Tune, the treble is fine. The slight “zing” of the quasi-ribbon tweeters is clearly audible. Listeners who are used to Maggies say “how? There should be a big roll off this way or a lot of brightness on axis”. But this isn’t the case either way in Sonic’s room thanks to Michael. As he says, “your room is the speaker”. Tunees must have seen the great Tuneland systems where the placement of the Chameleons or 60 put the tweeters at impossible angles off axis >60 degrees sometimes.

The other good thing is the sound envelope now repeatedly extends beyond the size of my room. Instrumental images are still “within the room” but they are tapering outwards and the instrumental-sound-bubbles now extend past me to the rear of the room and the impression of recorded space is going beyond the side walls on more and more recordings. Very good.

Sonic still can’t get what Hiend1 described in his thread – singer in front of him, one layer of vocalists just behind his speakers, another layer of singers to his right and left. But then, I don’t have any Earth, Wind and Fire recordings. But Zonees can probably see that Sonic holds Hiend1 in high esteem as a Tunee and his system is a model/benchmark for mine.

Pinging Hiend1….

The next step I am planning is to support every cable on Cable Grounds. Right now I have the cables up on foam cups with a small MW bar over the top. This sure works better than on the floor. Scroll back on this thread for Michael’s discussion on how proper mechanical grounding is beneficial to the sound. Michael is now working on this set of Cable Grounds for Sonic and they should be here not too long I hope. I will also be changing the rods of my two mini-clamps for the plastic (resonite) rods.

Michael -- I got a question. This may take me into the world of dynamic tuning but here goes….

On most of my CDs with vocals, the perceived height of the singer is realistic, about eye level when I am seated or maybe a bit higher.

On one CD – Marni Nixon Sings Classic Kern (Reference Recordings), the instruments are properly sized but Marni’s voice is positioned low. She sounds like she is standing in a hole in the floor and her voice is coming from a spot between the shelves of the rack!

Its disconcerting…how do I “give her a lift”?

Also Michael, can I expect that if I fully Tuned my system like Hiend1 and Drewster’s (with tuneable speakers), it could play back a jazz trio with the piano full width from speaker-to-speakers, bass and drum kit on either side of my listening chair so I am sitting “in” the band?

Musick played this weekend: Marni Nixon sings Classic Kern (Ref Recodings), F Couperin Concerts Royaux (Harmonia Mundi), Bill Evans with Herbie Mann Nirvana, Sainte Colombe Concerts a Deux Violes Esgales (Astree), Lester Young and Oscar Petersen, Organ Works by Louis Marchand, Handel’s Sonatas for Violin and Harpsichord (Kurosaki/Christie), Veritas.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

I'd have to sit in your room to be sure but there is a spot behind you on the upper wall that might do the trick with a shutter or pieces of wood on the wall angled.

Yes, if your speakers were more tunable or if you had tunable speakers in your room you would find that things would fall into place even more than they do now. You've heard big changes with things that you have done with the PZC's and the other tools well imagine the changes with the tool that puts the pressure into the air? Tunable speakers can do things that are unbelievable.

I'm happy about your speaker disappearing act!

Hi Michael

How does Sonic go about locating that point or the Shutter on the back wall -- got a stepped methodology to help me find it?

Tell you a few things that may point to something: There are two shutters on the rear wall on either side of the aircon and mounted parallel to the ceiling. You'll see they are "turned off", that is folded down. Every attempt to bring the shutters into play -- 45 degrees up or down or 90 degrees -- resulted in worse sound. Usually more distant or a deader sound robbed of life and musical colour.

Having the shutters mounted vertical didn't do much good either. And by then I was seriously stopped from any further drilling.

So will this magic spot be in the centre? Is the Shutter likely to be mounted parallel to the ceiling or perpendicular to it?

For Zonees wanting to try what Sonic did with the MW pieces on the PZCs, you can take a wood square from Michael (Sonic is finding the stained wood richer sounding that unfinished), drill an 8mm hole in the centre, cut a thin piece of aluminum cooking foil just a tad smaller than the square, then crinkle it by pressing it between the thumb and fingers till it is...well crinkled. Put a hole in the middle and mount it on the PZC using the Tuning Bolt. If the MW piece is thick, mount without the washer if getting a grip is a problem. Now it must be mounted loose, the foil is there to be a sort of spring and improve the surface to surface to contact between the MW square and the PZC face. In Sonic's case, the wood piece can be rotated on the Bolt easily. Squash the wood and foil onto the PZC will harden the sound and dry up girth.

Sonic thinks that without the foil, the wood will not seat properly on the surface of the PZC -- it will be always too loose or too tight. Hence the foil for coupling.

And Sonic is not the originator of this idea -- I owe this to the Great Thinker of Tuneland Jim Bookhard. He gives a far better description of this in the old Tuneland archives. There is a treasure trove of tune info there.

Sonic

Hi fellow Zonees!

While waiting for Michael's reply, Sonic is trying some things with a couple of pieces of "Shutter Wood" and brass brackets. Placing two Shutters vertically on the rear wall at the 1/3 width points and about 2 ft from ceiling creates a pinched sound. Focus is good but the bloom and ease of the music is gone. Tried other combinations of vertical mount too and it is not working. Vertical is the wrong approach. Onwards....Michael, your thoughts?

On another topic -- this one is about perceived speed. We hear people speak of some systems as sounding fast -- in Sonic's town, Naim systems particularly speakers with their amps and front ends are know to sound very snappy and fast. OTH, sme vintage valve sounds are described as "slow".

Sonic noticed that Michael has also spoken about this -- that by tuning, he can adjust the pace of the musick being played. How?

The Sonic read something taken from an interivew that Tim Di Paravicini gave a long time ago. What he said seems to explain this phenomena.

He said (although the context is why extended low frequency response is essential for accurate music systems) that if there is phase shift at the low end from LF roll-offs, the music subjectively becomes "rhythmically slow, sluggish sounding". Because when the bass is tilting (from a roll off), the fundamental bass note arrives earlier than the "smack" of the transient. Our brains latch on rhythmically to the transients that define the pulse of the music and if the "smack" part comes in later than the "whoomph" part, things sound sluggish as if the musicians are playing slow and lazy.

In the case of the Tune, I guess that right tuning extends the bass capability of the system and aligns the various pressure zones and wave fronts in the room so the transients and the fundamental arrival times are in sync and the pace and rhythm improves.

All this is in the time domain, so steady state frequency response sweeps of the system and room will not tell the right story.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

2 very involved posts, thanks! "love a good thought"

So, where is this energy spot (in your room) that will move the stage forward and backward? Your bookcases have evidently moved this placement to somewhere else in the room instead of the back wall, but be assured it is somewhere in your room. In one room that I had I found this staging tweak to be at my feet and to the left by a foot stool of mine. I used a room attenuator to adjust the energy.

This is a staging situation that is very commonly caused by energy that is concentrated in one area (a rack, speakers, sub, or other objects that are burning energy too slow as compared to the rest of the system). This can be a structural problem but I have found that when I lighten the load of the mass in my room and signal conduits the front to back becomes a lot more easily dealt with. if a room leans toward linear however there is a line that goes from front to back that controls this movement. If you are willing to loose some of the things you have gained and feel comfortable that you can get back to where you are there is a trick you can do.

Take a tune and set it on the floor moving it from front center to back center and tell me what happens along the way. This should get very interesting when you start to approach the mid plane of the speakers.

(wood)

I knew in time that the wood would finally start to cure and would begin to out perform the raw pieces. At first the finished pieces always sound inferior but as they age the magic starts to happen. I know that it is not practical for me to not send things out a year after they are ordered but in reality it does take time for the curing process. Evey day I'm kinda like a baker going out to the finishing in process to see if the wood that I'm working on is ready for a sanding, coat or bake. It's a process that I have learn to respect and try not to rush. As you and others ask me "how are my toys coming along?" I feel that part of my answer is a bit like a weather report. Around here we judge what we are doing by the natural humidity percentages. pretty wild but oh so true to form in the land of curing.

Hi Michael

That’s a really good suggestion – so Sonic took a sort of Tunestrip (two EchoTunes sewn end-to-end) and placed it on the floor to try out the effect. I didn’t use a RoomTune panel because that would have required Sonic to take down one of the FS-DRTs which will have unbalanced the room and involved two changes instead of one at a time.

Sonic took this Tunestrip placed it on the floor under the main rack and listened…not bad, good resolution but a slightly recessed but very pure centre images. Vocalists sounded real and the articulation of their singing was good.

Pulled the Tunestrip forward close to the listening chair…even better resolution but the L-R extremes of the sound started to close in.

Got the Tunestrip to the plane of the speakers…and the images start to go noticeably lower. Images across the soundstage right and left are now sounding lower…AIIYEE…is like Sonic is listening from a balcony or the performers are midgets. Reminds me of a very musical Quad 57 system that I heard – the good owner listened to the two “heater” screens fairly close up, driven with very nice EL34 p-p amps and although the music sounded beautiful the images heard from the listening seat were low, or like I was sitting high, listening/looking down.

I then moved the Tunestrip even closer to my listening chair and the images go lower…Sonic did this right till the Tunestrip was at the FS PZCs behind my chair. Conclusion – the further back I move the Tunestrip, the more noticeable becomes the lowering of images (or the more images are lowered).

What does this tell you Michael, and what shall Sonic do?

Oh yes...one more thing -- you are right that the finished MW squares sound worse than plain MW before they cure. Over the last few months, the finished wood stayed in Sonic's closet....everytime they were used, it was a negative. Only now, months and months later do they appear to work and show some promise.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Speaking of which, I was working on your Grounds today. It's remarkable voicing something as simple as wood holding up cables, but if people could be with me during the times when I am hand voicing something they would be shocked. Who would think that a cable ground would get so much attention! Each step of the process has to be just right or the formula doesn't work to my liking. It will be interesting to hear your comments after you have had these a year.

I need to go do a system setup tonight but I am thinking about your room and trying to put myself there. Here's something you can do for me. Take a hard back book and do the same thing step by step with it that you did with the tune and tell me what you hear. Open and close the book along the way.

Hi Zonees

Music Beaver is me too -- had some trouble with logging in so Michael suggested I try again with another log-in sequence. So Sonic is back as Music Beaver.

After Michael's last bit of advice, Sonic/Music took a 1ft square coffee table book and got to work. Played familiar music and started with the book on the floor just ahead of the amplifier stand.

There was no effect that I could reliably pick up until I got to the plane of the speakers -- at this point, the sound expanded, particularly the images in the centre of the soundstage. Images became more "whole", voices and reverb got better separated, I could hear more internal voicing of instruments and singers. Opening the book was better but it is hard to describe the diffference.

Moving the book closer to my listening chair delivered the same improvements. Voices in the centre did not rise but they sat in an ambient field that made everything sound natural (believable).

When I got to just ahead of the listening chair, the centre images seem to dip in height again but the shell of dimensionality made the lack of height OK. Funny to say this -- Sonic's eyes "see" a low image, but ears hear an image with enough height. In each case, opening the book made the sound more natural and "real" in some way.

If Sonic were to choose where to put the book for strongest effect, it would be about 1ft+ ahead of the plane of the speakers. I could try having the book right at my chair and let it settle and that might get even better...but these are my quick observations.

What does this tell you, and what should Sonic do next?

And a few days later....

Since then, I got a better grip on how the system was sounding, and I took a rattan stool and placed a hardcover coffee table book on it and placed the assembly just ahead of my listening chair in line with the two Shutters on the floor. The sound opened up with more ambience, more defined images and a faster sense of pace. Very good actually but the footstool is now having a book on it and it just sits there looking odd. But the sound has changed for the better...what does this signify, where can I go next Michael?

Sonic

Hi Sonic

It's so good to think of our sound as 3D. I try to create products with this in mind and certainly do tricks like these in my own systems. Just like the rack or shelves in the front of rooms make a difference, so do objects in other areas of the room.

This is important for readers to follow!

Here are the latest pics.

Sonic has found a placement for creating a captured mini zone if you will just in front of his speaker plane.



Notice the relationship between the speakers, Shutters, stool, and chair.

This is enough for discussion on it's own but Sonic also shows us the latest in pressure control behind his ears and to the back wall.



Hopefully this drives home the point of us listening to "air pressure" instead of particular components.

Hi Michael

What are some things Sonic can do to strengthen the effect of the captured mini-zone? It creates a projected image effect that is quite appealing. How can I improve the rattan stool/book combintation and do you have a product that dose the job?

The Shutter on the center rear wall can do with more adjustment. The height appears to be about right but more can be achieved with the angling of the blade. Sonic finds the rear wall finicky -- not a lot works on it and whatever does takes a little out of the way procedures that Tunees don't seem to be using from what I read in Tuneland.

Can you give me more steps to find that "magic spot/zone" that will let my room open up?

Sonic

Hi friends at the Zone

As Sonic listened thru this weekend it seems that the centered Shutter on the rear wall and the "rattan stool + hardcover book" mini-pressure zone seem to weaken each others' effect. Sonic not able to decide which is closest to the sound of live musick but for now I'll go with the option that gives more transient impact and snap. Been listening to music with some horn loaded and tapered quarter wave tube speakers -- what they do give is that impact that Sonic could have more of.

Sonic

Hello, Sonic,

Gee, you remind me of of how much I used to experiment before I wore myself out on it. But, some time has gone by and I find myself wanting to get into it again. Part of that is due to advancing age and part of it was getting stuck in a "reed shaking in the wind" kind of mindset; i.e. I read one theory and try that and I read another theory and try that. I started off with Mr. Green's techniques, but got off into the "put your speaker here and your seat there" thing, along with bicycle inner tubes under my components. I should have gone the other way around!

Well, you live, you learn...

For now, I have one specific question for you. I noticed in earlier pics, you have your Maggies situated with the tweeter panels on the outside (closer to the wall), but in newer pics, you have them on the inside (closer to room center). Can you remark on the difference you have heard with this configuration? I ask because I have a pair of QR 1.6s with tweets on the outside.

Greetings Robert

Sure...Sonic will try to answer your question and I'll start off briefly to get to what I think you want to know and if you like me to trace my tune journey and how it is related to my speakers to work, I'll try to help.

In my town, Maggies are liked for their ability to create a "big sound" especially one that goes wall to wall. This is to some extent related to reviews and views written in the Absolute Sound as well as sales hype.

So the preferred placement is relatively far field and audiophiles found that tweeters on the outside gave a big, wide sound while sort of maintaining acceptable treble response. I think Audio Asylum's Maggie User Group advises MG owners to start this way.

For me (maybe others too who tweak/tune), there is a "parameter fixation" that can develop. Means for example, I can tune to get the best bass out of my system but focus so much on this one parameter that the mids and treble neglected and sound awful ....and I don't notice it. It takes another listener to point it out (often to my humiliation).

So I started out far field with tweeters outside and mild room treatment, something like 8+ ft from my listening seat with moderate toe-in. But as I followed the Tune and started to reduce toe in and move the speakers closer to me, my transient response and treble started to go off. With each step closer to my listening chair, my system sounded more like one of the old tubed amps or an Ortofon SPU-GTE -- sweet, musical, big in soundstage, but gentle in transient impact.

I then moved tweeters in board and got more treble extension, better transients and cymbal crashes that soared above the music and emphasized the dramatic moments rather than create just a metallic tsschhh somewhere in the rear of the soundstage.

The subjective depth and "layering" in the soundstage was reduced but Sonic has long concluded that the idea that depth and layering are often hokey colourations -- live music is defined by its punch and transients -- classical, jazz, folk and rock -- not by the sort of depth that audiophiles thry to get from their systems. Not everyone agrees with this view but conventional audiophile placement does not give the rasp and attack of brass, cymbals and percussion.

So even if you are listening far field, try the tweeters inboard. The focus willlikely better. Have you started tuning your room?

Magneplanar has not been consistent in their advice but you need to try it for yourself. Also don't tip the panels back -- Sonic found this creates a vague unfocussed sound. Upright or even slightly leaning towards the listener is good (to my ears).

Sonic now sits about 5 ft or so from the Maggies and my ears are about 35 degrees off axis from the tweeters when they are inboard -- if they were outboard, the angle will be >45 degrees off axis and the treble rolls off not to mention that their proximity to the side walls cause colourations and imaging problems.

Maggies are said to work best toed in as the quasi ribbons are extended but directional. With the Tune, where the whole room starts to act like the speaker, I can get very good treble and transients way off axis of the tweeters but inboard.

Your point about getting worn out by tweaking is something I can identify with. I am now in a mild state of tuning fatigue. My main system is sounding nice, I got some things on the way from Michael and there is Sonic's System 2 (that is deliberately left untuned/tweaked). At this stage, I am looking for a big discovery to get me tuning again. But Michael's products work wonderfully especially the wood items so my system may still got further into the parallel universe of the Tune.

Sonic

Sonic,

Thank you for the advice. For the last several years I have had my listening chair at the rear 1/3 of the length and 1/2 the width of my room, with the speakers at the front 1/3 and 1/4 the width each. Originally they were toed in to the best imaging, but later reading lead me to toe them in more so that the side null point hit the first reflection points on the side wall. I primarily watch movies with this set up, with the sound mixed down to 2.1 channels (a Martin Logan Depth sub doing low frequency duties). I figured this configuration would provide a better phantom surround channel.

When I got lazy, I left it at this and only recently, having perused Tuneland, moved the speakers closer to my chair and faced them straight forward, with no toe-in. I was really surprised that this works! Tonight I will re-position the speakers so the tweets are inboard and take out the spacers so the speaker stands straight up as you advised.

My primary problem has been this: my phantom center front image is always slightly off to the left and the phantom surround image is coming mostly from the right rear corner. I tried and tried to alleviate this and always to no avail. Perhaps now that I have gotten away from that "rule" of thirds mindset, I can finally lick this problem.

I have been using a CD from XLO with a couple of tracks that are mono, with the channels out of phase. One of these is an excerpt from a recording of the song "Stormy Weather." I can't tell you how many times I have been aggravated since the 1990's to find that the bass notes from that song always seem to be coming from the right side wall! If I move my chair (or the speakers) so that that signal is diffuse, the same song in mono in-phase images to the left. Yet, the last few days, the bass has been diffuse, although the higher frequencies seem to image toward the right speaker. So, I guess I may be getting somewhere. Ideally, I want those surround effects to be coming from all over, if not seeming to come from another dimension.

When I heard the Maggies for the first time in a store, it seemed as if out of phase signals were going right through me to somewhere in the back of the room (an effect I have also heard from Martin-Logan electrostats). Rarely have I recreated this effect at home. And, it may not be that important overall. I can tend to get off on a tangent and ignore what good has been accomplished with my experiments while concentrating on some other goal.

As you can see, I have been trying things for a couple of decades now and one thing I keep running into is what I call the "six of one, half a dozen of the other" result: one thing gets better and another gets worse. I can usually always hear the change being wrought, but can get stubborn about not abandoning a specific change if it is deleterious to the overall quality of the sound.

Another thing I need to curtail during this next round of tuning is the urge to try too many things at once. From what I have read hereabouts, I need to let the changes breathe for a while, as well as let the room re-presurrize. Also, an amp I had for almost 20 years went out and I just got in a pair of Outlaw Audio mono amps last Wednesday, so I think they are still in their break-in period.

Anyway, thanks for your advice and your ongoing journal of all your experiments. I look forward to hearing more.

Hello Robert

You are surely moving in the right direction with your system. Sonic hopes it turns into a great musical experience for you. Gave some thought to the points in your post and I hope that some steps in my journey is useful -- here goeth...

1. Room imbalance is a very common problem. The cause can be obvious like assymetrical rooms, acoustics or just systems that have to be placed non-optimally due to domestic considerations. But for all but the absolute worst placements and combos, the Tune can fix the problem.

Sonic's room had a slight bias to the Left and ambience was biased Right front/side so you may remember I reported a Bach harpsichord recording sounding like it the instrument was recorded in a live-end-dead-end room...dead end to the Left and live to the Right.

The problem never showed up on throwing the mono switch or playing a mono CD. The solution in the end was found in the Sound Shutters. I used those on the Left to weaken the pressure zones on that side and used the Right ones to fix the zones there and those on the front wall to push the center zone forward (Sonic also likes a forward sound). And the bias is gone and the odd CD has the ambience round me. Oh yes, don't angle the ceiling Shutters at least not in my room.

I've not had a Left front bias and ambience rolling diagonally across the room though. Michael, Drewster and the senior tunees will know how to fix that, but Sonic doesn't.

There is lots of hope. My room is also compromised with the bookcases that must be there for domestic reasons yet the Tune can be heard here to some extent.

2. As you tune, try to visualise your room more in terms of pressure zones rather than first reflection point ray-tracing. Ray-tracing is only significant in the treble, maybe 5khz and higher. For bass and mids, it is all about pressure zones and how they interact. I have tried Tune gear at first reflection points and found them ineffective. But once they were placed to address pressure, the magic started.

3. How does the Left bias change with volume level? Is it worse when playing softly or does it center itself when the volume pot is turned down?

On another thing:
Sonic has just done a new Tune on the Preamp tonight and the first listening test promises some a much more detailed sound but a few things had to be adjusted like the rack so I'll report on this tomorrow or the day after we let the system breathe (nice description, Robert).

I hope Michael weighs in soon on how I can imrpove that mini-trapped pressure zone. It is turning out funny and though there are big benefits in clarity it seems to cut the sense of the music scale...on some CDs producing a quasi-mono effect.

Sonic

Hi fellow Zonees

Here we go with the picture of what Sonic did with the Preamp:



Up till now, I had the bottom cover of the preamp on and I set it on MW squares over Harmonic Springs. This tune involves removing the bottom cover and supporting the preamp just by the frame/sides of its chassis.

This is actually a part way to what Sonic is planning -- that is to use MW and support the very simple PCB and not the casing to better mechanically ground the pre-amp. You see the PCB is attached to the box by 4 skinny L-brackets and in the original state, rubber grommets isolated the PCB from the chassis. The rubber grommets are long gone in Sonic's set up but I always felt the PCB could be better coupled to the rack.

Got to go carefully because there is 400v somewhere on that Board.

Results so far are promising -- more midrange/upper midrange bite and sharper transients. Good transients are (in Sonic's understanding) not just a function of rise time but also fast and accurate settling of the signal. Just like pace and rhythm has to do with all parts of the signal arriving in phase at the same/right time. The subjectively improved transients could mean the grounding is more efficient and the energy storage is reduced. For fast settling, I am not thinking of damping. Michael's view (and I have learnt he is right) is that a system shoud be free to vibrate. Damping kills the sound. Sonic ventures that the grounding needs to be efficient so the signal stops when it should and this is not to be achieved by the use of rubber and absorbers.

A way to look at its is like this: some people have described Magneplanars as having a snap-blur sound (that Audio Critic chap) and he is right. The low mass diaphragm gives a sharp rise time (good) but the energy storage in the panels muddy the trailing parts of the signal and consequently the musick. It is the same for the rest of our system -- energy stored and not evacuated in any piece of equipment will reduce the transient impact of the system. Applies to CD players, tape machines, turntables, pre-amps and amps. And once there is this storage problem, audiophiles normally react by damping more and throwing many watts and megawatt at the speakers....but the problem doesn't just lie there but along the whole chain.

Hey, Robert how are your 1.6s responding to tweeters inboard, no toe-in and being mounted upright? l found at first a touch of toe-in was beneficial (about 1/2 inch in my case) but as the Tune advanced, my Maggies could be run parallel to the front wall and still give nice sparling treble.

Sonic

Hey, Sonic,

The Maggies are doing well in their new configuration. 2 nights ago I watched a DVD of an animated feature from the 1980s called "Starchaser: The Legend of Orin." Well, as happens often now that I'm in my 50s, I fell asleep after half an hour! I work at a movie theater as a projectionist and I get home after 11:30 most nights. After a meal, I'm usually out like a light by 1 a.m.

I did wake up to hear the end credit music and it was quite dynamic. After that, I listened to some of my reference CDs, and there was a difference from previous days (isn't there always?).

Last night (without falling asleep) I watched another animated feature on DVD called "The Rugrats Movie." As with most animated films, it had a very complex soundtrack. It seemed as though my system now plays louder and, again, more dynamically. The phantom center is still slightly off to the left, but the phantom surround varied with content from left to right, though this could be because of the mixdown (5.1 to 2 channels).

As I mentioned before, now that the speakers are closer to me, the bass in the phantom rear no longer piles up on the right wall. At a later date, I will try to move the speakers incrementally to see if I can enhance the effect. I do notice that when I play a frequency sweep, the apparent location of certain frequencies tend to wander a bit.

Speaking of frequency sweeps, that XLO CD I mentioned has one of those demagnetizing tracks, which sounds to me like an oscillating frequency sweep. It does brighten up the sound after playing that signal through the system.

I next listened to some other reference CDs that I haven't heard in a while. It didn't seem there was a major change from what I recall hearing before. They did sound a bit closed in, though, so I tried another trick I haven't done in some time: slowly running a wand type tape head demagnetizer over the CD and then listening again. As in the past, it enhanced sound quality. Have you (or anyone in Tuneland) ever heard of this or tried it yourself? I think I got the idea from what I believe was called the Bedini CD Clarifier. I think the same principle of demagnetizing applied to that device.

To answer some of your other questions, that left leaning phantom center doesn't appear to move with a volume change. And, as to other tuning, I have mostly been undoing things I have been living with for years. I have been loosening screws which I prevoiusly was lead to believe must be tight, I got rid of all the bicycle inner tubes I had under components (with a board separating the component from the inner tube).

I also got rid of all the Sonex in the room, all pieces of which were rotting, by the way. When I first read of Mr. Green's techniques in an issue of Widescreen Review magazine back in the 1990s, I tried to emulate them by cutting the Sonex into triangles and strips and placing them in the same areas he showed on his diagrams in that article. At a later date, I got rid of all but the ceiling (and floor) corner triangles (six in my room, 2 in the front, 4 in the rear), which by then I had covered with cardboard cut-outs. I still have the cardboard up on the ceiling corners, but removed them from the floor corners. I don't think I have ever seen floor corners mentioned, but I gave it a try anyway. I just figured if the ceiling corners could "horn load" the sound back into the room, the floor corners would do the same, especially with a concrete floor.

Another item that went bye-bye were all the ferrite cores that I had on every interconnect, speaker cable and power cord. As for opening up components, I don't want to get into the new amps yet. I only loosened the exterior screws. I did open up the Parasound pre-amp I have had for a few years and loosened all the screws inside, as well cutting out the tie wraps. I took the feet off and placed 4 metal pipe clamps underneath, with the pre-amp just sitting on them, not fastened at all.

Before the inner tubes, I had been using inverted furniture glides with the flat head touching the component and the point touching the shelf. However, I used double sided masking tape to fasten these glides onto the bottoms of my components. I'm thinking tape might be considered a damping material, so I am currently foregoing using those again. I also got rid of 2 yellow bricks, one of which used to be on the 2 channel amp which died and the other on the pre-amp.

In recent years, I had the subwoofer a few feet behind my listening chair (hooked up to a digital delay unit to try to time align it with the mains), but I now have it in the front right corner (without the outboard delay box). The limited time I have (and some lingering laziness) has prevented me from doing anything but a cursory set-up. I only turned up the volume a bit without checking the level with a test tone and my SPL meter. I did settle on 180 degrees phase after a couple of quick A-Bs.

As far a bass goes in general, I did get a good massage last night, in that cavity at the bottom of my rib cage, so I must be doing something right, or, at least, this sort of thing has pleased me in the past. I want to ask, how do you feel about low bass? Does it need to be ruffling your pants legs or is that kind of response something one does not want, i.e., is it just an exaggeration? What are your tips, based on your experience, for integrating a sub with the Maggies? My signal runs through the sub and then to the main amps. I have the high pass turned off so the Maggies are getting a full range signal, but I have the low pass at 30hz, the lowest setting on the sub. I ask because I usually find great frustration with this sort of thing. This is the fourth sub I have had because I wind up getting rid of them after a while. Then, I read some article about how great subs are and buy another one. Like I said, I can be a "reed shaking in the wind."

Sonic

Have you put the pressure box where the stool is to hear the effect?

Hi Michael and fellow Zonees!

One of the Full Music 12AX7 tubes in my preamp started going noisy last night and it turned into a soft but noticeable phasey woosh today. So I switched to my back up pair of Sovteks and not surprisingly there is a big change in the sound and I need to stop tuning and let the tube settle in a bit but the first inkling may prove that both my previous tubes may have gone off gradually -- the sound was "washed out" and less defined compared to the Sovteks. Considering that the Full Musics cost more than twice the Sovteks and they lasted less than 6 months is a bit disappointing but mine may be atypical.

Let's see how the tubes and the sound changes over the next couple of days -- the issues with the stool and book may turn out differently.

Now Sonic's 5 cents worth on Robert's questions:

I tried a Bedini twice some years ago. When my room was untuned and I was different gear (not the present config), the sound seemed brighter after using the clarifier. I tried it again after I started tuning and this time, the difference was much smaller to the point that the extra step of spinning the CD on the thing before playing became a chore without clear purpose. The thing that worked for me (when I had a top loading CD player) was a CD....whoa cannot remember the name....it was a disc damper that went over the CD being played and you held it close to a light source for 20 seconds and it glowed in the dark. Put it on and press Play. That worked except it could jam or cause noise in drawer CD players. The glow faded and I never found out if it lasted thru the whole of Beethovens 9th symphony.

Sonic integrated the subwoofer using the Paradigm x-30 which has double slopes -- the main system could be rolled off at 60, 80 or 120hz and the sub cutoff could be continously varied. It worked very well to the point you can't tell there is sub in the room. I don't run my Maggies full range. Rolling off the bass reduces low frequency distortion, frees up amplifier power and controls any peaks in their response in the range covered by the subwoofer. I found the electronics of the x-30 nice and transparent and it is good value as many Tunees will attest. I have a concern about the built in crossovers that come integrated with the plate amp on the back of subwoofers( is yours one of those?), many are very cheap & nasty devices as one repairman told me.

In my room, the Janis W-1 goes down to 25hz flat and rolls off below that. At 20hz I can't hear any sound just a sense of pressure all round me and objects begin to rattle. The effect of bass flapping trouser legs should occur only on seleceted programmes that have been mixed that way. I have a couple of modern music synthesizer music that rumble my stomach but other times, the sub's presence should be noted by its absence -- when it is turned off.

Are your Maggies bi-wired? As you advance in the tune you may find bi-wiring a waste of money. But if you choose to go single-wire, try a short piece of speaker cable instead of the Magneplanar-supplied jumpers. If a short one sounds funny, try what Michael taught me -- use a 1 ft length of speaker cable and coil it into a spring and use that as a jumper. It worked nicely for Sonic till my tune allowed me to go with a short jumper. And one Tunee who tried a CornerTune in a floor tri-corner is Hiend1 from whose thread SOnic learnt a lot.

What average sound levels do you listen to rock, jazz and classical music?

Sonic

Hey, Sonic,

I was going through your old posts in the Tuneland archive. I noticed on page 2 that you had the front left corner covered by a Roomtune, so you have tried this. And later took it out, I see. With all the experimentation you have been doing, I see why you mention tuning fatigue.

But, hey, perhaps me getting back into the game will recharge your efforts, eh?

Among the many things I tried over the years, bi-wiring was one of them. I used some stiff cable left over from when one of the screens at the theatre where I work was re-wired in 1990. This cable was coiled like crazy and I eventually got tired of the mess and bought some other cable (also stiff, in a different way) from Audio Adviser, a catalog place in Michigan, I believe. That's when I re-inserted the jumpers and went back to one set of cables per speaker. I will probably give that little trick you mentioned a try some time.

Thanks for the info about how you integrated your sub. I have gone back and forth over the years with crossover settings and such, but I usually always hear the location of the sub, hence the experiments with the delay unit and centering the sub behind my chair. I nearly bought a twin Martin-Logan Depth sub, but talked myself out of that because those buggers are expensive. There have been times I have wanted to abandon the damn thing altogether, as I have with the three previous subs in the past. But, I'll give it another try and maybe finally get it right. The sub has built-in crossovers, high pass and low pass.

I have to ask, is there something special about the right front corner of a room. It seems all who have single subs use that corner? It kind of works in my situation because that corner is actually the northeast corner of the house, whereas the left corner has a solid wall behind it, but the left wall is drywall and panelling.

When I do listen to music, it's just about always new age or ambient, so it's mostly "manufactured." That's why my reference recordings contain actual orchestral and ensemble tracks (the XLO Test and Burn-In CD, the Rives Test CD 2) as well as recordings of nature, airports, helicopters and even racquet ball courts (The Digital Domain). I tend to close my eyes when I listen to music, so I usually fall asleep!

At any rate, my listening level is based on this: I use a test tone which is supposed to be played back at 85dBC for movie watching. I have always found that too damn loud, so I go with 75dBC, which correlates to a setting of 61dB on the Parasound pre-amp front panel read-out (or -6dB when I used to have a Marantz AV600, which I may bring back, seeing that it is highly praised in Tuneland). For CDs, the volume goes down to 40dB on the Parasound (or -27dB on the Marantz), with variances of plus or minus 3 dB, except for those test CDs which can play at 47 or 48dB.

A final thought: do you (or anybody else hereabouts) think there is any truth to the theory that cables and wires are directional and sound quality can be affected by which way they are oriented?

Hi Guys

I really enjoy watching the tunees get together! There's a lot to learn from the veterans of the tune.

Hello, Mr. Green,

I think it's great that your passion is still strong after all these years. It's also great how you help everyone out as we all explore The Tune.

Hi Michael and Robert!

Yeah tubes can sure sound musical but they have their downsides but to be fair, my experience with tubes, both small signal (12AX7s) and pentodes (EL34s), have been very good. This is one of the very few times a tube has gone off prematurely on me.

Michael, I do remember you once said that you ran your system without a preamp going direct from the CD player to the amps.

How did you do this?

Did you use the built-in volume control of the CD player or did you wire a pot?

Did you experience what many who have tried passive volume boxes and pots have noticed -- a lack of drive, dynamics and power even if the measured playback volume was adequate? If you did, how did you over come it? If you used a pot, what value did you use?

Robert, on your questions --

a. There's no reason why one corner should be preferred for a single sub set up. While many Tunees go Right, you'll notice that Drewster's sub is to the Left. If the subwoofer is integrated properly and the crossover point is not too high, your ears will lock on the leading edge of the transient and within reason the sub could be anywhere.

That is except the center -- the rack aside, having a sub in that zone often activates a room node that results in a frequency response peak and trough adjacent to each other that is almost impossible to dial out. Corners are more predictable -- that is an efficient spot and the loading effect of the tricorner is known. Some designers like Roy Allison designed speakers for corner placement, so were some classic JBLs and they sounded great for their time.

b. Cables are one area of audio where there is much odd logic and dubious science. Sonic is not among the "it all sounds alike" crowd, nor am I one who believes in double blind testing. But for sure in my opinion, never has there been more $ charged for less return than in many hyped cable designs.

Simple cables like Michael's are direction-neutral when new. As they are used, some directionality develops but this is not irreversible. If you run them in reverse, give them time to breathe (as you put it) and settle and all will be OK. For the complex cables especially those with network boxes, they may not be capable of running in reverse but those are things that Michael is leading us away from.

After my tube change, it looks like I may have to revisit some of my more recent tunes. But in the sound, Sonic is also hearing new opportunities too given that the Sovteks give me better image girth than the Full Musics. More shortly...

Sonic

Hi Sonic

When I do this I always use amps with their own gain controls. Passive pre setups can be trouble if the rest of the system is not a high efficiency one. Another thing is I rarely have a setup that does not need L/R balancing. As all speakers are a little off from each other I've noticed the same to be true with amp stages.

I miss Roy's designing! It was a fun avenue to travel, one that I've spent a lot of time in.

As I said to you in a recent email I'm so "not High End Audio", but more a true lover of simplistic thinking. Over engineering audio is a bad thing and always leads to holes found later by the serious listener in us. Purity is the truth of music production and reproduction. Not purity in the sense of destroying the whole before it has a chance to express itself but instead capturing the whole and bringing it back to life through tuning in the harmonic structures that it began with (or close).