Daniel's Room

Hi everyone
Im looking to tune my room and tweak my equipment. Would like to get some ideas on what I need and where to start. Here is some info on what I have...

Current room treatments... none

Room... is "L" shaped. The living room is 15' wide by 23' long. A brick fireplace the full width of the living room. The dinning room is attached and it 13.5' deep by 13' wide. Ceiling height is 8'4" and has coving all around the top. It is an old house (1955) and has wood floors. Walls are brick outside and studded with 2x4s with plaster sheetrock on walls and ceiling. It is a bungalow and has a basement.
There is an area rug a listening leather recliner chair, couch and chaise. No curtains on the large window (10'Lx6'W) in the living room. No curtains on the smaller window in the dinning room (6'x5').

Equipment... is all older from the 1990s... Krell CD player, preamp and amp. (I know heavy stuff) I have a 1950s Gerrard turntable and older 1980s Meridian tuner (small, light and sounds very good). The Equipment sits on a Bright Star Audio Rack of Gibraltar stand which is made of metal with shelves built of ¾" MDF and are supported around their entire perimeter. Speakers are Angstrom Obligatos.

The sound... I listen to jazz in the evenings on my tuner. The imaging is clear with a well defined centre singer. The soundstage width is mainly between my speakers. It occasionally goes a few feet wider but on the right side only. I can place instruments right to left and are quite stable but only a few feet of depth. The speakers do disappear though. If I get up and move around the sound will go to the speaker if I stand directly in front of one. There is some feel of depth around the instruments or singer. That being being said the general sound lacks bass. The low end is dead. I can hear the lower notes but they seem to be at a lower volume an don't match the rest of the music. If I turn it up it gets a little better but still too low.

The sound... When I listen to my CD player I mainly listen to older rock and roll music. It sounds detailed but again low end is too quite. I am missing the lower frequency volume.

What I have tried... After spending a few weeks learning about the tune I have removed the rubber feet and used pieces of wood under my equipment and speakers... also have loosened screws and removed all tie raps... lifted my cables from the floor with wood pieces. These all helped with imaging and open up the soundstage but had no effect on the bass.

Is it my room that is messing up my low end frequencies ?

-daniel

Hi Daniel

Great to have you on TuneLand! It would be great to post some pictures if you have a chance. If you need me to help you do this you can send them to mgtune@yahoo.com .

As you have read there's a whole new chapter waiting for your setup. the more open we make the audio pathway the more those harmonics will spread out like you are experiencing. My first guess is (since I have done a ton of Krell) is that there is still more in the electronics to open up yet, but anytime you want to get started on the room, I'm ready when you are. The RoomTune pillow products are the greatest way to economically treat the room. You can do the PZC's as well but this depends on your budget.

Barry's products (Bright Star) are on the extreme end of vibration absortion so right off I can see that with the type of components you have and the Bright Star you are probably way over dampening the signal. We have found that it hardly takes any dampening to start shutting down the sound stage. I would say that if we start lightening things up you are in for some big jumps of both volume and size.

There are basically two ways I see people go. One is to convert your setup and the second is to get an inexpensive simple setup and tune with it. For most the simple setup is a huge surprise and fortunately there is a great combo I have been tweaking on and recommending to folks with wonderful results. So at any time if you feel that it is easier to try this little system instead of breaking everything down so you can see how much the system can do tuned let me know and I'll hook you up. If you wish o keeps Krell's more dark sound and make it as open as posible we need to make a support system that will bring thee most out of it. This means bigger transfer platforms and MGA Cones for sure. the bigger the platform the more the tone. The Chassis on the Krell are a real challenge and the more we can lighten them up (like making the transformers outboard) the better it will do.

I have a recommendation first though that is cheap and you might find useful. Pick up a Magnavox DVD player for $29 from Walmart and convert it to a music making machine. This will give you a reference of openness to work off of. This little player is a gem and you will find serious listeners (on and off TuneLand) swear by it's tonal balance. If your electronics don't have bass after putting this in your system we will be able to start pointing fingers.

Let me know what type of path you may want to take and I'll jump on some ideas with and for you.

I know some of this is going to be the direct opposite from the tradition of the old school but since you are already opening things up you can see the road in front of you easier I'm sure.

It's a bit of a shock for all of us, but the music in the end is the reward.

Also you might want to look at some of the other guys setups that still use more "high end audio" products in the system. GARP has a cool setup for example if tubes are in the forcast. And some of the classic audio goodies are pretty fine. I would take a serious look though at that front end (CD wise).

Hi Daniel

I wanted to post your pics to follow what we are talking about doing but for some reason the pics are not transferring in cooperation with my ftp successfully.

However while we are figuring this out the PZC's are a great way to go. To date they tune in the energy of a room better than other products simply because they take the energy and allow you to tune it in.

Funny how when reviewers did their thing they were puzzled as how you can take soundwaves and actually tune them. To us who tune it's really fairly fundamental. All vibration interacting with any material has the oppertunity to be tonally controlled. We have uncovered this in the smallest of parts and when it comes to the amount of sound air pressure holds the results are huge.

So if I ever get the pics to work I can begin to show you some placement.

Well,

Sorry guys for the lack of pics done on my regular program. Until this is fixed I will try to use this alternative.

Daniel,

Welcome to Tuneland. If I were you, I would try to maximize my current system before stepping out into new hardware land. Michael and Sonic can offer great advice for improving the sound of your room. Tuning your room is highly recommended as you first step. Room treatment, using Michael’s products, is the most significant step that you can start right now. After you become really acquainted with the sound of your system and room, you can move slowly or fast into other areas of the Tune.

I note that you have a Meridian tuner, maybe a model 204? All of the Meridian tuners are highly regarded by real users, not audio reviewers. If I were to start another system in my home, it would be a small system with a Meridian tuner as the source. If you still have quality radio stations in your area, a tuner is still an excellent source for musical enjoyment. I can understand why you have been listening to FM in the evenings on a quality station. I have access to three quality stations locally for classical and jazz which I enjoy as well. Tuning you Meridian may really open your eyes to the benefits of Michael’s tuning products.

I note that you have Canadian speakers, Angstrom Obligatos, if I am not mistaken the Obligatos are 4 ohm with 89db sensitivity? If my specs are correct, your speakers do not need as much power as many other high end speakers to sound very good. While I prefer tubes in my system, I do not offer them as the best audio solution for your ears. You need to decide what sounds best to you and begin the journey.

Your Garrard turntable is really in style these days as many have returned to restoring older turntables at less cost that many high end audiophiles spend on the newer large mass turntables. I have recently purchased an updated Merrill Heirloom turntable which I am currently upgrading. Since the builder is down the road so to speak, I have had an opportunity to hear what he recommends for improving an already excellent table without spending silly money. Anyway, there are many sonic benefits to using these older turntables with the huge volume of low cost software available.

If you really want to get close to the analogue sound of your Garrard, I would recommend picking up the Magnavox DVD player and a tuning platform from Michael. This is the most cost effective piece of audio hardware that should be very close to the sonics of your Garrard. Highly recommended!

Greetings Daniel

You got a wonderful turntable in the Garrard. What's the arm and cartridge? I wish I had a 301 and a SME 3012 to play my SPs.

There is an audiophile prejudice that L-shaped rooms are problematical. They are but without Michael's tunes. A FS-PZC or two from Michael can barricade the room extension and create a rectangular space for the musick system. There are tunees who have posted their experience here (and the archive site) who had corridors leading off the main room with partitions for kitchens and things like that -- yet the Tune delivered great musick!

Sonic

Hi Garp
Yes I have had this equipment for over 20 years and have grown attached to it so i would like to keep it... Tune it and enjoy it. Starting with my room sound like the plan.

That is a Meridian 104 tuner. It has a wonderfully open and detailed soundstage. The Obligato speakers are efficient and disappear nicely. They are heavy at 90lbs each.

Hi Sonic. I grew up with that TT and had many teenage house party's with it. It was part of a mono system at the time but it rocked! I since made a maple base for it and purchased a used Micro Seiki MA-505 arm which came with an Adcom XC mc Cartrage. I recently integrated it to my system and needs to be fine tuned... Mat, clamp, then a new cartrage. I am waiting to get my system tuned so I can better tune the TT. I have lots of old records and would like to rekindle my TT enjoyment.

Didn't realize the L shaped rooms are problamatic. I can hardly wait to start working on the room and get a nice balanced sound.

-daniel

Hi Daniel

Well, here is my first instinctive thought.

Michael do they mount on the walls? I have coving. Would that effect the install?

BTW I purchased a Magnavox DVD player to play with... Should have it by the end of the week.

Hi Daniel

Because of the molding I picture ceiling controllers in the front and back. Wall mount PZC MEC's, on the side walls. There will need to be some floor standers and I would even get a SAM behind the chair.

Here's some PZC Ceiling Controllers at Herns place



here's the back



the "L" wall and side where your room enters the area

Now the mechanics

Daniel has been experimenting with transfer (to fill in the readers) and is talking about the next steps to take, so the following is in response to this. You guys know me , if I don't respond here I'll loose the emails and Daniel will never get my answers.

Daniel, I'm terrible about keeping up with emails but here do a better job cause I can build a pictured story line to follow.

I'm really into the sound of platforms personally. I know that they take up space and people are use to looking at stands, but the more we can do with the platform type of design in here the more range you will get out of the sound. So my first question would be. Where the rack is now, how much of this room could we use for maybe a 2 level platform? Or a TT Stand and one platform? The Krell could stay in the middle on it's own platform.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of platforms. If I remove the rack and small table it would give us a width of 6.5 feet to play with. I could also move the cabinet down a bit if needed. If we go between the fireplace and back of the speakers we have a depth of 2.5 feet.

[[ Krell CD ]] [[ Krell Preamp ]] [[ TT/Tuner ]]
[[ Mag DVD ]] [[ Preamp PS ]] [[ Phono Stage ]]

What would these platforms look like?

If I moved that cabinet to where one of the floor-standers would be... maybe blocking off the room opening... would that help any? Is this goal to keep the pressure in the listening area?

I'll get started on drawings. Do you have weights and dimensions of components for me?

Are you on a subfloor or joist with a basement?

The side area will be fine I think with a little tuning. No need to close the area just control it and listen for drift. Are you talking about the cabinet in the back corner? If so the cabinet is doing things to the energy and we either need to use it or yes, move it and pop a tune back there.

weights and dimensions...

Krell CD
19"Wx14.5"Dx4.75"H
36lbs

Krell Preamp
19"Wx13"Dx2.5"H
19lbs

Preamp PS
9.75"Wx12"Dx2.25"H
10lbs

Turntable
21.5"Wx18"Dx8"H
30lbs

Krell Phono-stage
7.5"Wx12"Dx2.5"H
7lbs

Meridian Tuner
5.5"Wx13"Dx2.25"H
5lbs

Magnavox DVD
?
?

My home is one level and is on joists with a basement.
The rear corner of the room has a temporary book shelf there. I guess I will have to remove it before we start tuning then.

Thanks for the numbers. Just saw on your first post where you said you have a basement. This is good news for the heavier components and helps me with designing.

I'm going to try to do some drawings tonight but bear with me. I'm using a new program and need to get use to it.

Ok, time to organize

here's what we have to work with



First question I have is do we want to convert the Stand, replace it, or remove it?



If we have enough space vs weight we could remove it.

If we do replace the stand we could put in a serious tuning toy.



This is a tuning rack with a spring loaded TT top. This thing can get as serious as you want with Top Tuning Shelves and even double Spring loaded Tuning Shelves. It all depends on how far you want to go.

I have been playing with my system. I removed all the wood from beneath the equipment and speakers and replaced it with coins (pennies). Also changed my speaker wire. I had multi-stran (10strands X 4 for bi-wire) solid copper wire and replaced with some 2 strands X 4 for bi-wire. The sound is much more detailed with air around the instruments. Voices are much more real. Voices and instruments have a fuller body to them. Deeper bass notes are coming more foreword. The sound has really improved. Bass is still not as powerful as I like. The soundstage is better defined but is mostly flat with very little depth. The width will only go to the speakers. Would like that nice big soundstage but these adjustments don't seem to be improving its size. I will try loosening the cooling fin bolts on my amp and whatever else I see doable.

I see in drawing one you have my stand and some platforms. That is a possibility. The stand shelves are 23Wx23D. Height is 13.5 and the bottom one is a little taller... 17. Not sure what you are thinking when you say convert the stand... make a platform to work in the shelves?
Is the platform between the speakers for the amp? Amp measures 19Wx24Dx9H and weighs about 125lbs.

Drawing two looks good except what about the amp?
We could do without the stand...how do I figure out if I have enough space vs weight?

BTW... just received my Magnavox DVD player in the mail... I see it is model DP100MW8 and not the 2100. It looks the same. What is the difference? do I need the 2100?