Tuning My Musical Journey

Hi Michael

Sure, let's give this a go! Sonic will help and we can all learn something from this.

Don't mind the "prove" word, I am using a term Sonic encounters in the industry which is where employment is and where the term "Proof of Concept" is frequently used. Usually to test an idea or part of an idea so as to get a sense of how to move ahead with a more complete product/service/business plan.

Very good explanation from you on the interaction of the Brazilian Pine boards with the MG1.5QRs.

Two observations:

First, my dehumidifier has been running about as much as normal over the last week.

Second, the mini platform Sonic made out of a Brazilian Pine board and Low Tone Redwood blocks for the amplifier (see March 6) has made improvements but a lot less than I expected with the Brazilian Pine. True it is a little warmer and deep and tuneful in the bass and that's about all (for now). And after a nicely ramping improvement things have leveled off or reversed or my ears got accustomed.

However, Sonic remembers what I went through when the Sound Shutters arrived. The first weeks were a confused time when nothing seemed to work. That was until Michael guided Sonic and we worked out the way to adapt them to the room. Today, the Sound Shutters are a vital part of the room that I cannot do without.

So here we go. What do you next suggest to hone/discover the sound?

The weekend is nearly here so Sonic would like some experiments to try and give you responses so we can zero into the right combination.

Sonic

First, pick out only 2 CD's. Two that you know very well and depend on. Make sure they are two different types of music.

2) Take the racks out of the room along with the turntable.

3) Make the system as simple as possible, no more than CDP, Pre and Amp.

4) Set components on boards and blocks.

Don't do anything else, let me see this in a picture and remarks on the sound. Don't try to fix anything just let me see it.

Hi Michael

The two CDs Sonic nominates for my test shall be:

a. Handel -- Water Musick (Trevor Pinnock and the English Concert, Archiv)

b. The Bee Gees -- Odessa (Polydor)

System will be taken apart tomorrow and set up in the way you suggest.

For a little bit of easier access, shall I place the Brazilian Pine boards on Low Tone Redwood blocks set upright/on the narrow dimension? Possibly use three Low Tone Redwood blocks per board for more stability and even pressure on the blocks.

This is exciting.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

This isn't always the case, but if I do 3 blocks under the component, then I usually go 4 under the board.

As I do transfers these days, I try to not have one transfer right under another to start with.

We should try the blocks both ways but we'll start with which way you want to.

Hi Zonees

After the excitement in Sonic’s exchange with Michael these last few days, you’d think this post would be about what happened after I removed the racks and the analog playback from my system (temporarily) then set the CD player, preamp and amp on Brazilian Pine boards and Low Tone Redwood blocks.

Instead what Sonic is reporting may be about kismet.

Today Sonic twisted a knee…..then in an unrelated happenstance, one of the long T1 wires from Michael that connect the outboard transformers of the main amp broke. Amp is out of action…all within the same day. The removal of the racks is now out of the question for a few days at least. Limping, leg unable to bend much, amp out of commission is this a sign?

But Sonic is listening to musick. I took my 300B amp and wired it up. The MG1.5QRs are being driven by something like 8 watts of single-ended triode power. It sounds anemic, cannot go loud but it is musical if I am prepared to listen below the point of the compression that comes from clipping starts which puts me in the same loudness range as users of the old Quad ESL57s.

There is a sweet midrange, techni-colored midrange and highs sloped off, bass sort of extended but fluffy. At least Sonic got musick this weekend a very retro sound indeed.

I did manage one thing before all this happened – I did a reset to the last system restore point. The system is now where it was when the Brazilian Pine boards arrived and maybe one or two tune actions before that and it was in the midst of this resetting that the amp cable broke.

Sonic

get well

Enjoy the music

Thanks Michael.

Let's see how the knee feels in a few days.

The musick is enjoyable this evening -- I wonder if it is partly because Sonic has no expectations of the 300B triode amp.

A thought occurred to Sonic as I was listening to musick through the 300B amp -- the sound is not loud or punchy but it is noticeably dimensional and the soundstage wide.

My thought -- the break in that wire to the transformers of the main amp didn't happen in one go.  There was no trauma like a yank to the wire or a dropped transformer snapping the joint but over time.

Might the progressive weakening have affected the sound especially recently just ahead of the break? And clouded my recent observations and explains where Sonic's feel of "satisfaction" with the sound went.

If so -- now this is the wiring for the all-important power supply of the amp -- the sound would be affected for the worse with the progressive fatigue of the cable.

Means I better have all the solder joints refreshed.

And this gives more time for the Brazilian Pine shelves to settle into this climate.

It has been now 7 hours of continuous running of the 300B amp and it is getting surprisingly dynamic. But see what I am listening to.

One effect Sonic noticed with the Brazilian Pine boards -- I can hear the effect of equipment warm up very clearly.  There is a clear curve in improvement and the system doesn't hit its stride till past at least the 2 hour point from an overnight cold start.

Sonic is now listening to a CD of baroque musick of Johann Heinrich Schmelzer -- Music for the Courts of Vienna and Prague (Armonica Tributo Austria directed by Lorenz Duftchmid Arcana CD).


Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic felt enough energy today to try something – got this done because I had help -- while the amp was sent to the repair station.

Sonic took the equipment out of the Clampracks and removed them from the room. Those assisting me remarked how heavy they were.

Cleaned the floor and polished the wood.  While the place was drying and Sonic smelt the freshly polished wood, a quick BOO! test showed a more even spread of sound in the middle zone of the room.  Sonic thinks “this is promising”.

Then I did this:



Driving the system with the 300B amp and as the system settles from the “shock”, the first impressions are good.  

First impressions:

• The 300B amp has gained a few watts.

• Musick in the room feels more relaxed and the boundaries of the room are not so present.

• The centre zone of the soundstage is more even across the width of the room.

• Bass is a lot clearer – on Oscar Peterson Trio's “Night Train”, Ray Brown’s bass notes were as clear as if it were a solo.

• The effect of the table puts the soundstage on the other side of it – this may be optical as I don’t sense it when I close my eyes.

• Sonic hears Brazilian Pine affecting the system less as warm girth sound but lively, musical and happy sounding.

The sound was so enjoyable with jazz trio and string quartets that Sonic thought “the repairman can take his time….I can live with this amp”.  Then came the dose of reality – as a test I spun Neil Young’s Tonight’s the Night. The 300B ran out of steam – at even a modest level for this recording, Sonic could hear the increase in distortion (a richness, since it is even order harmonics).  

But what was most telling was the snare drum snap at the opening of the title track.  With the big JBLs Sonic venerates the snare has punch that startles.  With the 300B trying to drive the MG1.5QRs the snare was a half-hearted tap.  But it is doing incredibly well and musically – that this amp will even drive the system listenably is an achievement of Michael’s Tune in this room.  Before I got the room to this point of tune, the 300B amp just quit in unlistenable uncontrolled bass and compression regardless of music being played.

Michael is right in advising Sonic to remove the racks.  I get the feeling they have served their purpose in this room.

Michael – your views?

Sonic

I love Ray Brown

I don't really have much to say at this point except, the materials in your room have gone through a big change.

Once we get to a place where you are ready to try the two recordings as a reference it will be easier to walk through things, but that sounds like something that won't be happening for a while.

For now, I'm watching.

Hi Michael

Yes, please watch what Sonic is doing and guide.

I won’t get the amp back from the repair station till next weekend and then there will be a week of settling. So there is going to be some time of length before Sonic can get to really testing with those two CDs.

But right now there is still musick to enjoy and Brazilian Pine shelves to settle in. I like what I hear now and is happy with the ease of use with this set up.

In the meantime, Sonic will be trying some Hiend001 tuning maneuvers with the two remaining Brazilian Pine boards – like placing them leaning across the front corners of my room. Sonic tried this and the result is something I want to take the measure of more before describing. But it might have done some nice things to the sound of the harpsichord (playing Francois Couperin’s Third Booke of Harsichord pieces – Kenneth Gilbert/Harmonia Mundi CD).

Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic has been trying out the Hiend001 maneuver in various places along the front wall of the room. For instance, setting the Brazilian Pine shelves on the floor across the front corners and in other spots along the front wall. There are contributions in many of these spots which I am learning to hear and choose which is best for the advancement of the Tune. The corner placement has benefits but I won’t want to lock in to any spot without trying more.

The sense of the presence of the table/Brazilian Pine boards set up in the middle of the room to carry the Rega TT and the Sony blu-ray player is starting to disappear in terms of it being an audible presence with the soundstage on the other side of it from where Sonic sits is happening.

The 300B amp is coping very nicely with small scale works. It does take a long time to warm up till it sounds its best. If it is a short night of listening, by the time it hits its stride is about time Sonic needs to shut down for the next day. There are several brief moments in listening to musick and speech with this amp that the music sounds real. It could be anything – a vocal expression, a piano note, a violin up bow, audience noise – but for a moment Sonic feels one with the reality of the recording.

I hope to get my transistor amp back this weekend and then critical listening and tuning can start.

Sonic also got notification from those who have oversight of my dwelling that I have to close down my listening room and remove some of the delicate pieces of gear for a three-day period towards the end of the month for building works. I hope I can get some good listening direction before that takes place.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

Sonic got my amplifier back ahead of schedule

Which means the testing can begin earlier.

The repairman re-soldered all the extension cables for the toroidal transformers.

Amp back in place with three Low Tone Redwood blocks under the chassis with three soft Harmonic Springs (and MW thins) and the two transformers each on a Low Tone Redwood block with three Harmonic Springs.

After powering up and playing one CD, Sonic was neither surprised or disappointed that the sound was not very good. The mids, highs and bass sounded separate and out of step with each other, the bass had a peak at about 60Hz and highs were zingy. Typical of system shock and new connections.

The system will sound more like it should after a day or two of run in.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Boy do I know about system shock

Being in design mode I have to keep an ear out 24/7 to listen for the slightest movements in the timbre. Often I'll be doing something else and I will hear "IT", then I'm off to the chair to explore what took place. Horrifying as this may seem to some, it's like finding treasure for me.

have fun, I'm watching

Hi Michael and Zonees

After two days of running the system in after the return of the repaired amp, Sonic has started some listening with seriousness tonight.

There is more settling ahead so what I am posting here is an initial reading.

First, what the system looks like now:











The phono stage is supported in the Michael Green Mini Clamp rack with two deep bell AAB1x1 rear and one shallow bell AAB1x1 front.  The down rod is Resitone from Mr Green.



The central FS-PZC sits on the Brazilian Pine board with the four AAB1x1s resting on 2.5 x 2.5 x 0.25 inch MW squares.



What is free for further Tuning use are two Brazilian Pine boards and 22 Low Tone Redwood blocks.



The sound is getting pretty good – the bass, mids and highs now sound all of a piece and in phase, the bass peak is gone and the frequency response follows the general contour of the Magneplanar bass (a slight rise to 60hz then a gradual slope off but useable output to below 40 hz).

Playing the Bee Gees Odessa CD, Sonic observes a slight convex soundstage where the middle images like voices are pushed a little towards the listener and the side images are at the plane of the speakers.  Sonic is not unhappy with this. Much better than the other way (concave).

The harmonic richness I was expecting from the Brazilian Pine is only partially here.

Sounds at the speaker locations do not sound like they are stuck to the panels – they just happen to be in the same place visually.

The Bee Gees overdriven bass that rolls forward into the room does roll forward into the room. Decent bass tunefulness.  But let us not push this tunefulness thing too far.  Rock bass can be tuneful but often not so much heard but felt as a solid, deep foundation that pulses to and behind the musick.  This tunefulness thing might be a hi-fi myth, part of the PRaT nonsensicals from certain British audio manufacturers.

Playing the Handel Water Musick CD, good inner detail of the various counterpoints going on, the bass line holds up well and the counterpoint can be followed.  The violins need more harmonic richness but they have a nice sheen. The midrange hardness Sonic reported is gone or nearly all gone.  The cembalo playing behind the ensemble in the continuo is clearer than before.

With eyes closed, Sonic does not think the sound is produced by or related to any object in the room.  I get a fairly wide slab of sound across the width of the room. The sound is “whole”.  

The soundstage is freer but not free or wide enough.  The convexed soundstage is not evident on the orchestral recording but the centre-fill of orchestra is improved compared to before.

Then I tried LPs. Now here is something good!

Images are bigger than those on CD. I also get more sense of the entire soundstage moved forward from the panels and playing nearer me with the table carrying the TT and CDP not factoring as a barrier to the imaging.  Sonic is going to spend most of the night playing records which truth to tell are now my primary source. More reason why the Turntable is coming forward as my primary source for serious listening, with CD as the casual listening source, the means of system warm up but also for certain my very serious source of good and great musick recordings that are not available on LP.  Good musick ahead!

Michael – your comments and suggestions on what to do next.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

Sonic’s late night listening (but not all-night like Michael) session was great!

Sonic was playing to mostly LPs. Listening to things you’d associate with Sonic as well as odd things that are recommended to me or Sonic finds on Saturday/Sunday vinyl digs – J S Bach, The Lettermen, Charles Bernstein, J Haydn, Linda Ronstadt, P Hindemith - the sound in my system playing LPs is closer to my idealized sound that lives in Sonic’s head (always assuming such a head exists for Sonic) when compared to CD. There’s bigger images and girth, a more anchored bass, good voicing in the alto/viola range, a better sense that humans are making the musick and not synthesizers, reasonable dynamics too.

The harmonic density from the Brazilian Pine and Low Tone Redwood blocks is gradually building up. I can hear it in the cello range.

Playing various recordings Sonic can hear how different they are. This is from LP to LP and to an equal extent from CD to CD. I think I need tone controls. Recordings differ not only in frequency balance but optimal playback level too.

Sonic understands the relation between playback levels and frequency response. Think Fletcher-Munson curves, yes? I feel that the removal of tone controls was one of the biggest mistakes made by the designers of home stereo gear. And after that, the next mistake might have been the elimination of the flawed-but-correct-in-principle Loudness Switch. Some of the pop/rock records I heard have been EQ’d such they sound rather “right” when played at low levels.

Sonic has spoken to an elderly audiofan who not only collects LPs and 45s but also has a big collection of magazines dating to the times of the 1950s. He uses graphic EQ in his system not like Sonic who uses one just get the right playback EQ curve for 78s and pre-RIAA records. This one puts it to extensive use for recording and system/room sound tailoring.

We talked and Sonic was told of the first time the hi-fi designers threw off the yoke of the evils of tone controls. Sonic was shown an advertisement in HiFi News and Record Review from the early 1970s of a system made up of the Linn Sondek LP12, Grace G707, Supex 900e MC cartridge, Supex SDT180 transformer, Naim NAC32 preamp, Naim NAP160 main amp and Linn Isobarik DMS speakers….and he pointed out there were no tone controls! “Back then the new word was 'musicality'”, said my friend “and the magazines told us the extra circuitry (of tone controls) distorted the sound and if you needed tone controls to make the record sound good your system was crap. A system that was musical would play all records to sound right on it! So a system without tone controls became a badge of pride for owners and everyone fell for it.”

Sonic

Sonic said

"Playing various recordings Sonic can hear how different they are. This is from LP to LP and to an equal extent from CD to CD. I think I need tone controls. Recordings differ not only in frequency balance but optimal playback level too.

Sonic understands the relation between playback levels and frequency response. Think Fletcher-Munson curves, yes? I feel that the removal of tone controls was one of the biggest mistakes made by the designers of home stereo gear."

mg

As I have said many times here and other places, this is the biggest mistep the high end audio world has made. It is so obvious, yet blew right past the ears and minds of the audiophile reviewers and designers.

How can a playback system, if it only has one sound, one fixed setting, play a wide range of differently prepared music? What's worse is, how did an entire chapter of this industry miss the boat by this big of a margin?

The answer comes from being on the inside, which I was and am. The listening stopped as the egos in the industry grew, around the time of "discrete" being proclaimed as the only way. It's been down hill ever since. The pride of the reviewers will never admit this, but the results speak for themselves.

There are only two ways for success. One is to tune the variables more organically as we do, and the other is to go back to electronic equalization.

Designers in this industry who claim to be purist are actually far from it. For example for speaker builders, what do they think a crossover is? It's an EQ obviously, but because it has been given a name and a brand, it is not considered an EQ. A speaker crossover does exactly what a parametric EQ does, only the paramatric is variable while a crossover has a fixed value.

the reality is

This industry and hobby is based on tuning the variables, but somehow and "somebodies" made it into a different game than what it really is. We need to go back and blame the discrete people for not being as good of listeners as they portrayed themselves. We handed the industry over to the egos of writers and designers past their listening prime or abilities, and created a hobby "sub-chapter" that was flawed or at the very lease incomplete.

These are hard words for many who have spent tons in this hobby, but it is the truth none the less and shows itself everytime we put on a recording that doesn't do what we think it should. Those of us who have accepted the truth, value the tools that allow us to find and reveal the recorded codes, but many are in complete denial that such a mistake could have possibly come from our trusted audio authorities. "Some" are indeed luckier than others and seem to have playback rooms that sound fairly natural from the get go and their systems are able to play the music with enough politeness that they are able to get by, but if we are being real with ourselves as listeners, the majority of this hobby has still to this day, no clue as to the power of the audio signal and how it relates with the audio code. The last 20 or so years of the High End Audio hobby has been in holding pattern, only because they refuse to back up to the point where the mistakes were made. Instead of exploring the very thing that can set recordings free, the audiophile hobbyist turned to the darkside and made thousands upon thousands of very good sounding fixed systems that can only play few pieces of music extremely well. For those who find this statement outrageous, they should have traveled with me on my review tours. This is when I traveled to over 50 of high end audio's best reviewing ears and listened with them, with the same pieces of music. The music was their own recommended recordings and I can tell you, not two systems on the entire 3 year tour sounded the same on any two systems. But was the industry going to raise the red flag? Absolutely no way were these groups of people going to miss out on their gravy train.

Now that the high end audio hobby has been softened by economy, it is easier to bring the truth closer to home and give birth to the hobby that should have happened in the early "90's". A hobby that is based on the recording itself and not on over built golden calves. This is a hobby that the EQ guys understood more than their discrete counterparts. I'm not saying EQ's do not present their own problems, but what I will say is, There is far more signal in the recordings themselves than we are still giving credit to. It's hard for engineering types to get the mind around the fact that the audio signal is by nature "present". If it was "recorded" it is there. It's there on the storage source, and playing in the parts of the components, and in the space in our rooms. Even if 50 percent of a recording was lost somewhere along the way there is still more music available than we are giving birth to.

example

Something I like that TJ says "I can sometimes hear more of the music in my car".

I remember leaving reviewers homes after they showed off their systems, and getting in my fairing tweaked car, putting on the same music and blowing away their sound. But would they ever say this? Not in a million years X 2. I'm speaking especially in the area of "body". There are a huge number of audiophile system plug & plays that can't play any sort of musical drive and pace. And what did those car systems have that the home audiophile systems didn't? Variable systems

for Myself

I enjoy doing my tuning naturally. A simple system for me is something that can't be beat. I'm not the sort of listener that likes listening to parts, and when I say this I'm not talking about Equalizers, but more over-built audiophile parts. The more time goes on the more the sound of audiophile components, to be honest, bugs me. After a while my ears start screaming for something real to listen to, like being couped up in the house for a month and finally getting outside.

This no doubt is because of my love of space. Space to me is everything, from back in my days of miking both the inside and out of instruments and their interaction with the room. It's a totally different sound and sense of pressure than these audiophile systems. To me high end audio sounds like thinned out brashy dulled dynamic-less vanilla. Don't get me wrong Vanilla is a great flavor, but why not start with vanilla and each time you listen add a topping to it. Today I want vanilla, tomorrow & stawberry, and the next day vanilla strawberry and chocolate.

I bore quickly of one flavor, and the thought of not letting the music's space come through like I know possible from being a part of the magic of making music. All of these artist had something to say, and when I treat them like vanilla I feel like I'm doing both them and my ears an injustice, like I just wasted my time and theirs. I want/need to be inside of that recording no matter where it takes me or how my mood wants to be a part of. I need to be able to "interact". I'm not just along for the ride but I've been given a personal invitation to the concert. I do appreciate the looks of some of these manly components, but I'm not driving my components around or showing off my wrist. I'm listening and that's what these guys have lost. The audiophile started looking at this hobby and stopped listening to it.

A major step forward when you start realizing the huge differences from one recording to the next. Now the choices begin.

good posting

Hi Zonees

Sonic found one of my hoped-for recordings

It is J S Bach's Christmas Oratorio. This is a three-LP set from Vox.

A 1959 mono recording by the Akademie Kammerchor and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra (Ferdinand Grossmann, cond) with E Majkut (tenor), D Herrmann-Braun (contralto), E Roon (Soprano), W Berry (Bass), L Dutoit (echo), B Seidlhofer (harpsichord), J Nebois (organ).

This mono recording is beautiful focused yet expanded. Voices are natural and the balance with the instruments correct. Listening very soon Sonic had forgotten this is mono, just wonderful musick. And almost completely noise and damage-free for records 56 years old.

Sonic is feeling, after many hours of listening this weekend, that the harmonics are building up. The BOO! test shows a definite deep undertone developing in my room.

An idea -- since I got a Brazilian Pine board (notice Sonic is no longer referring to them as "shelves" since there re no more Clampracks in the room for the system) under the central FS-PZC and it worked successfuly, and given there are two Brazilian Pine boards left, Sonic wonders if they should go under the FS-PZCs at the Left and Right walls?

Sonic may try this next. If I go this way, Sonic would have used up all six Brazilian Pine boards.

Now I got a big pile of Low Tone Redwood blocks sitting on the floor which can be applied to get more low-tone in Sonic's system, which is what I need.

At this time we have gone far from the clinical hard sound of the room. More harmonics, undertones and image-size are needed but we are getting there.

Sonic heard CCR's Green River (LP) last evening. There are people who say Creedence Clearwater Revival recordings have the bass rolled off. While there weren't super-low notes, the bass is full enough and goes low enough when bassist (Stu Cook) played the notes.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

Another idea: as Sonic was looking at the system and planning my next step with the Brazilian Pine boards, I looked at the central FS-PZC that now sits on a Brazilian Pine board, the AAB1x1 resting on MW squares (see my March 20 post). Thought Sonic "instead of MW squares why not Low Tone Redwood blocks?"

So I did this and the music started. After a couple CDs -- the system was fully warmed up before the Low Tone Redwood blocks were introduced -- Sonic began to hear more depth in the bass than I was accustomed to from these disks.

There might be something here.

Sonic

Hello Zonees

After Sonic placed Low Tone Redwood blocks between the Brazilian Pine board under the centre FS-PZC and the AAB1x1 supporting the aforesaid FS-PZC, the results after four days was adequate for Sonic to want to do the same for the FS-PZCs at the Left and Right walls, this time with both Brazilian Pine boards and Low Tone Redwood blocks installed together.

Sonic did this and at first there was a small increase in weight and bass extension but that’s about it.  Then Sonic did a concerted run in/settling then started listening again. Again not that much difference till I was playing musick (LPs and CDs) in a mind of relaxed state, when I started to hear things  

The soundstage with my familiar favourites is now projected about three feet ahead of the speaker plane from left to right – with a little bending of the plane but projected forward and there was a tail of images and ambience extending out beyond the walls. Better still, the table (with Brazilian Pine boards) carrying the Rega turntable and the Sony blu-ray player has become acoustically absent.  The stage of sound doesn’t sound like it is behind or ahead of the table.  It is indifferent to the presence of the table (with the Brazilian Pine boards) carrying the Rega turntable and the Sonic blu-ray player.  

Sonic has been working towards this goal for a long time and I finally hear it.  Salute to Michael and the Tune  

Then I noticed that bass is stronger and anchors the sound better while the interplay between bass guitar/acoustic bass and bass drum is better defined. The playback level needs to be raised by one or two clicks on the preamp depending on LP/CD for the same accustomed SPL at the listening chair.

The width of the soundstage is now adequately wide but not super Beyond Walls, yet there are unexpected moments on several recordings that the stage goes way wide. There is more sense of height. Height is something Sonic rarely talks about. For instance a CD of Brian Eno’s Ambient 1 Music for Airports is wider than the room if Sonic closes eyes or looks straight ahead plus the height is apparently floor to ceiling.

Of course, I could do with a more pronounced sense of bigness, but Sonic is not complaining because every recording Sonic hears is sounding different from each other. I would be worried if a certain system sound characteristic carried from one recording to the next.  This is called colouration.

I am getting harmonic clarity of different musical tones and instrumental timbre but still little depth in the soundstage.  There is some depth (what I hear is not flat like a piece of paper) but this is good enough.  Yes, there is some depth but it is subtle.  

In Sonic’s experience each time I am invited to hear “great reproduction of depth” in anyone’s system, Sonic has always found it some form of “banana soundstage” that is a concave stage with a recessed centre image. On the other hand, the wonderfully dynamic systems that I have heard with large JBLs and Tannoys have tremendous ease, slam and clarity but little of the famed “five layers of depth” and since when was real soundstage depth presented in discrete steps/layers?

To bring this together, here is a Chart:



Fig. A is what I very often hear in many high-end audiophile systems – the banana soundstage where the middle images are recessed towards the front wall.  A concave stage.  The circles around the speakers indicate that images are bound to the speaker locations.  This effect tells a listener that the sound is emanating from loudspeakers and the concave stage leads some listeners to wrongly identify it as “depth”. There may be sometimes imaging beyond the speakers’ outer edges.

Fig B is more rare where the stage is not concave but stretches in a line across the plane of the speakers.  If there are “blockages” the images near the speakers get plastered to them indicated by the circles which again tells one that speakers are making the sound.  There may be imaging beyond the speakers outer edges. At its best this soundstage can be very real particularly if the system allows the images around the speakers to be free (in which case a diagram like this would show no circles around the speakers).

What Sonic has tuned in is Fig C.  The whole soundstage is forward of the speaker plane, the middle images are slightly more forward ie: a convex stage, and the soundstage extends beyond the speaker outer edges but in my case sort of fades off.
   
Recordings played by Sonic these couple of days:

Brian Eno                                Ambient 1 - Music for Airports        CD
Ladysmith Black Mambazo        Shaka Zulu                                   CD
J S Bach                                  Christmas Oratorio                        LP
Bee Gees                                 Cucumber Castle                           LP
J S Bach                                  Cantatas 84 – 91                           LP
Crosby, Stills & Nash                Daylight Again                               LP
Deep Purple                             Machine Head                               LP
Mozart                                     Piano Sonatas 1 – 5                      LP
E Cohen/E Cory                        Quintet/Profiles                             LP
Borodin                                   String Quartet No.1 in A Major        LP

Given the quantity of analog Sonic is playing, I am wondering about improving the analog front-end.  Two avenues come to mind easily. One option is to change the cartridge from the Ortofon 2M Blue to an Ortofon 2M Black. Not for me are the moving coils, though Sonic is fairly encouraged by many audiophiles to go this way but I hear a particular sound that appears characteristic MC.  And I once participated in a test where a track from Cat Stevens’ Tea for Tillerman was recorded to CD-rom in 16/44 with levels matched.  Several cartridges were used to play that track. All were properly loaded.  There were five cartridges used.  I heard and ranked them without knowing what cartridge was being used.  Of the five playbacks the one that sounded best turned out to be a variant of the Shure V15. Among the worst was a much more expensive MC.  The MMs (Shure V15 and M75ED) in this test were preferable to the MCs blind…the MCs had much greater clarity were unbalanced, some frequency ranges were thin, while the MMs were more whole and balanced octave to octave and delivered more “slam”.  The Denon 103 (MC with a spherical stylus) was pretty good. Maybe it did not have an exaggerated ringy treble. Another option for me is to fit a Groovetracer kit to my Rega P5, a great turntable it is…lightweight, stable and simple in construction. Sonic won’t mention or compare it to the Great Cult Turntable With The Number 12 which is now priced way beyond the performance it gives.  For the Rega, the Groovetracer mods give you a precisely machined inner platter in alloy and a delrin main platter.  

Anyway that’s a story for another time.  For now Sonic has learnt and is enjoying the musick that the combination of Brazilian Pine, Low Tone Redwood gives. It works!

Sonic

Hi Sonic,

Wow now that is something, my aim is to get my soundstage like yours (diagram "c").
This is what drove me to this audio hobby and now to see Sonic having that is really great and motivating. I am at page 32 of " Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics " thread, it is amazing reading your journey and having learned so much just by reading Sonics thread on it.

Awesome job Sonic

Regards

TJ

Hi tjbhuler and Zonees

Thanks for your comments tjbhuler! Sonic has found the combination of placing devices on top of Low Tone Redwood blocks that then rest on Brazilian Pine boards that then grounds through a coupling device from Michael (might be AAB1x1, Harmonic Springs or more Low Tone Redwood) is a wonderfully harmonious combination.

Now listening to LPs of Beethoven's String Quartet Op 59, No. 2 (Janacek Quartet) and some David Bromberg. I plan to next place the Rega Turntable on Low Tone Redwood blocks that sit on Brazilian Pine but the musick is so good, Sonic will take time.

Sonic

Taking time to settle while exploring, I have found, is one of the greatest lessons to be discovered within the tune.

There's always a piece of the recording waiting to reveal itself when we learn how to align the hidden harmonics. The secret to "hidden harmonics" is as much of a timing issue as it is an acoustical, mechanical or electrical one.

There is a particular sound to listen for as harmonics develope that let's us know if we are letting them settle into a stable place. It may not be so easy finding those harmonics, but once you hear them you will remember that sound forever and they give you something to always listen for. At this point you can always use the music to guide instead of trying to achieve with parts.

Hiend001 asked me about the search so I'll hop up on his thread to talk about this topic more.

you can never go wrong with settling

Greetings Zonees

This week mostly no listening as my dwelling had works which required covering and partial disassembly of the system for protection of the equipment and records from dirt and damage.  Finally the work is completed and the clean up and reset has taken place.  This means settling again to get into musical stride after system shock.

Before the shut down last weekend, Sonic made a discovery.  Through the week earlier I had found that Low Tone Redwood blocks-on-Brazilian Pine boards make good musick.  Sonic went one step further in a discovery – possibly even better I have found is MW-on-Low Tone Redwood-on-Brazilian Pine which made the musical images larger, more projected and harmonically more complex.

I am settling the system with this configuration under the Rega Turntable, the CD player and in several other places and the effect is beneficial from the time I restarted the system after its hiatus! String sections of even smallish baroque ensembles have more “sweep” and are not point sources trapped on or near a loudspeaker surface.  Sonic is now listening to more Schmelzer and the musick is flowing and the bass resonant.



Now some comments on “Hidden Harmonics” as exposited by Michael on Heind001’s thread. I am trying to get to grips with this term. Like all terms to describe an experience it can evoke different responses in each reader.  Someone told Sonic that the sound of a cello is like deep brown velvet. I said “wow! That’s a brilliant description.” Yet another person might not get the point.

So too with “Hidden Harmonics”.  Sonic is not certain what the term means in actuality. For certain, CDs and LPs and properly recorded analog tapes have far more realism, details and information that our systems are playing back to us. In this sense, the details and the information is “hidden”. As Sonic gets my system more tuned, I am hearing details and a wealth of things from the recordings that I did not hear before or notice to the same extent.

It might be a softly recorded instrument that I can now hear every note played. Or some low level detail like the intake of breath by a vocalist before a loud phrase, it might be a bow accidentally taping a music stand in an orchestra or what sounds like two instruments playing together that turns out to be three.  Of course the tone of the system has changed – the sound of instruments now have more character, no longer a “generic violin”, a “generic brass section”.  

The thing is when we talk Harmonics, Sonic thinks of the overtones (sometimes undertones) that relate to a fundamental note. Properly speaking these are harmonics.  While as a term “Hidden Harmonics” is tautogrammatical making it a memorable term for Tuneland customers to recall, are we talking about Hidden Details/Hidden Harmonics/Hidden Information that through Tuning a system can start revealing?  

I would find it very useful from Michael as he dissects Peter Gabriel’s “Up” (see Hiend001’s thread) to describe what the sound of a recording is like before and after a Tune to indicate what Hidden Harmonics are, what they are not and how we can recognize them as our systems get tuned.

Just as Sonic was signing off this post, as Bach’s Suite E minor played on an unusual instrument, the Lute Harpsichord, and I remarked to myself “the instrument sounds it has deep undertones in the bass that Sonic did not notice before”, then “the sound of the instrument is filling the front of my room, it is huge.”  

Sonic