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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2015 6:26 pm

Hi Sonic

What do you have in the way of wood not being used?

Lets do an experiment with your electromagnetic fields.

As soon as we get all the products in full production I'll be working on producing "field" tuners, something I was on track to do in the 90's, and is something I still do today, but it is so sensitive that Electro Magnetic Tuning (EMT) may very well be different, and not only that, but in constant change per area.

The space cone is not only a transfer cone but is also the center piece of a tuning technique that at the time I was not able to bring to market properly. At this point it shouldn't stop me from sharing a DIY cheaper version, but I don't know how well this will work as compared to a more formal unit.

First though I want to revisit the sound you get when you place the Space Cones on, by or around your transformers. Put either Magic Wood or LTR Blocks between the space cone and the transformer. Report back pics and findings, and lets see if we can't do some long distance field testing.

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 04, 2015 10:07 am

Michael, you have just given Sonic a load of ideas!

The transformers...why didn't I think of them?

If each transformer in my system is a "tuning point", then I have at least 5 such "points" -- and do whatever is in wall warts count?

Pictures and ideas tomorrow.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 04, 2015 11:50 am

Hi Sonic

Yes, wall warts too. They're all field generators.

Here's a pic of the powerstrip unit.

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S347

I opened it up and snipped the cables, put it back together and it sounds fantastic Exclamation Sounds like a hollow music block, very nice Exclamation The tone goes extremely low. I like the inside design too. Just bi-pass the switch and your set.

If we had UL approval we'd mod these ourselves. I'd be tempted to build a custom Tuning Board for this.

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 05, 2015 10:05 am

Greetings Michael and Zonees

Progress and Puzzlement with Space Cones

Progress
As settling advances, Sonic is getting a depth and weight in the bass the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs did not give me till now. And the cymbals have a beautiful sheen too. The realism brings a smile to me and to those who have listened with Sonic.

On some records, I am hearing a projection starting in the midrange…it is not a “honkiness”….but a feeling that the sound or a part of it wants to break out into my room and fill it.
 
With extended listening, Sonic also notices the observed “snap-blur” signature of the Magneplanars – a sharp and good transient followed by a blurry vagueness – is totally absent. Now the first person I know who described this is Peter Aczel who reviewed the Magnapan Tympani 1-d in The Audio Critic in the 1970s.  It is interesting that back then the single-ended Magneplanars (those with one plate of magnets for a mylar diaphragm, as opposed to push-pull which have two plates) had the metal pole piece facing the listener.  Also I am told but Sonic cannot verify that the mylar used was thicker in the early models.

Many Magneplanar owners blamed lack of power for this effect and used amps running in the hundreds of watts.  But here is Sonic after advice from Mr Green getting a sound that other Magneplanar who hear shake their heads given they are hearing my planars powered with an amp that is 85W on paper.

Beyond this, Sonic is waiting for my order of T3 cables and the mains distributor strip to ship from MGA which I understand from Harold will be sent this weekend.

The sound is so good now thanks to Michael, his products and guidance  Very Happy   I hope the T3s will be just the thing tip the scales and bring the promise of the Tune to Sonic’s system.

Puzzlement
Now Sonic has a new adventure after Michael suggested that I try Space Cones on MW pieces (or Low Tone Redwood blocks) on my transformers.

This is easy….given Sonic has four Space Cones and lots of MW, here is where I can experiment.  

On the two toroidal transformers of the main amp:

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S351

And the transformer and choke (a mini transformer really) of the Quicksilver Preamp:

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S350

Of course, Sonic will not try all this in one go! An evil recipe for confusion.  So I started with just the main amp’s toroidal transformers because Michael said somewhere on Tuneland that toroidal transformers give off a lot of charge/EMI from their centre cores compared to conventional transformers. If this is the case, we should start where the problem is worst, should we not?

First impression is promising – the sound was deeper in tone and richer sounding (slightly), like moving in a “tubey” direction. No loss of detail but things are sounding more rounded and the bass line is clear and every note is counterpointing the music better.

Of course a big source of EMI and grunge is here:

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S348

The switching power supplies of these CD/DVD/SACD players are notoriously “dirty”.  Some listeners Sonic knows say they hear so much hash from these things that they have to install ferrite clips on the mains leads to cut the hash – may be this suppresses the grunge but ferrite can cause many downsides too. But they may be onto something.

Michael – I think I should tune that little transformer in the player’s power supply (the yellow block) don’t you think?  I don’t want to try tuning the two hi-speed switches in foreground of the pix (adjacent and to the right of the T1 wires going to the PCB) because those switches are electrically live.  Placing MW on something with live electricity with a metal Space Cone on it seems like asking for trouble.

I could do this:

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S349

Then the unexpected happened – as Sonic was listening late into the evening and doing some labour using the computer at the same time with familiar CDs and SACDs playing – then Sonic looked up and thought “this doesn’t sound right….all the frequencies are there but the sound is shrunken…like the volume level was not enough…” but Sonic knows these disks well that this should not be. And what I was doing in terms of labour was mentally interfered with. The sound was not good as it was before the experiment.

Listening fatigue started and while this isn’t the best thing to do, I made a switch. Space Cones and MW removed from the main amp’s toroidal transformers and I placed one smaller piece of MW on the Quicksilver preamp’s big transformer and set a Space Cone on that.

Back to doing things with music playing.  After an hour or so, the sound went the other way. Thinner and the soundstage was less relaxed and the bass while more prominent in terms of notes and phrases played, was sounding over damped especially in the bass. Real bass is tight but not like this – this is hifi transistor/over damped infinite baffle speaker tight. Quite wrong!

Shaking of head (Sonic’s). I then went to just MW and Space on the CD players small transformer.  More typing and laborious things while music played.   No, this is not right either. The ensemble is not filling my room, similar to like the effect with the preamp. The performers are not with me anymore nor Sonic with them. I was listening to 1s and 0s from a plastic disk.

Its now very late and morning is just a few hours away (from Paul Simon)….and I got an early morning start at the place of labour. Sonic removed all MW and Space Cones from the system, played musick and very soon I was working better, efficiency coming back then Sonic is nodding to the rhythm and flow of the music. The system is sounding much better without the Space Cone/MW combination anywhere.

Today as I prepared this post, the system was run in for some hours with no Space Cones/MW around.  Sebastian Bach’s Anna Magdalena Notebook on the digital player (Igor Kipnis, Nonesuch Digital) and there is a semblance of a real harpsichord playing with a warm bass that projects in front of me with a gentle ambience imposed on my dwelling.

What do you think Michael? While Sonic is prepared to persevere and let prolonged settling occur but where shall I start given that none of these options appear to work within the first hour but actually deteriorate rather noticeably  scratch  scratch  scratch

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 05, 2015 8:30 pm

Hi Sonic

Bear with me on this if you would. Let me use you for a little experimenting.

I want to hear the fields around your parts starting with your bigger transformers.

Keeping the space cones off of anything, cound you do this arrangement for me.

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S352

Usually I raise them higher on voicing dowels, but let me hear this if you will, thanks.

Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 06, 2015 11:35 am


Hi Michael

This one is going to need your views and guidance Shocked

Sonic placed six Space Cones (that's all I got) on the floor in the arrangement you indicated and started musick.

I started listening carefully at a point when the system was warmed up sufficiently to be reliable in the sound it makes but Sonic knows this is early, not settled by any means and may change with more run in over the next few days.

What Sonic heard and what I say is:

a. I like the sound of this more than any of the Space Cone applications of the last post. The bass is bigger and the sound is transparent with more performance details.

b. The soundstage is now strange. The right hand half of the soundstage to the right wall is clearer and stronger in definiteness while the left hand half of the soundstage is darker and softer, a bit closed down.

c. Another way of explaining this is if I am listening to two violins playing recorded with one 1/2 right and the other 1/2 left, the right hand violinist is standing one foot closer to the mike, while the left hand violinist is playing with slightly less attack and using a smaller tone.

d. There is no imbalance in the stereo sense -- centre panned images are in the same places, no drift to the right.

This is an unexpected effect. What do you think, what shall Sonic do next?

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 07, 2015 12:44 am

An hour on with the six Space Cones and here is a development!

Sonic listened next to two familiar CDs – a double viola da gamba disc and Handel’s Water Musick (Pinnock/ The English Concert/Archiv) – and yes the left-right anomaly is there.  There is very good detail and projection in the Right Hand side of the soundstage but a slightly closed in and soft Left Hand soundstage.

I then removed the six Space Cones from the room and immediately, the balance of the Left Hand soundstage matched the Right Hand soundstage perfectly.

In the process, Sonic observed that the sound of my system without the six Space Cones had more sense of room size and ensemble width.

The system with the six Space Cones gave greater detail and projection in the right hand half of the soundstage but with less apparent/implied width.

The ideal I am pursuing is based on Sonic’s listening to a live performance of a small classical ensemble in a 70ft x 50 ft performance space, rehearsing in front of an audience of five people (including Sonic). There was detail, projection of instrumental lines as well as the sense of the size and width of the room.

Now how do I get both in Sonic’s system?

Your views, Michael?

Sonic


Last edited by Sonic.beaver on Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Formatting and correction of typo)
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 07, 2015 1:51 am

Hi Sonic

Put the cones back in, let it play a while, then spread the cones 2 or 3 inches out, and let it relax again. As you do this also spread the transformers further apart from each other if you can.

below is a look at your field pattern, looking down at the transformer

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S353

above is the side view of the same pattern

If you go back and look at your SP placements, where the transformer is in relationship to other field makers, and the pattern above you will be able to spot where one or some of the field rings may have gotten out of balance.

Above you can see the uniform harmonics, with a nice strong third harmonic.

Below you can see that the third harmonic is out of balance, changing the overall flow of one harmonic to the next. Also notice it changed the magnetic core.

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S354

This is what is happening when you are tuning not only your transformers, but any part, transformers, electrical wires in the walls and metal chassis being the biggest field changers.

Don't let this scare you  affraid , it's just another level and is more complex. Once you get the hang of seeing what is happening as you do it, it's not that big of deal. But this can also get scratch

Keep in mind everything you are hearing is about SPACE Idea Too close, too far, just right Basketball and everything has a "charge".

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S355

In a perfect world, you would want to see the rings like this.

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S356

What you would want to try to do is find out why they are or aren't giving you this structured pattern.

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 07, 2015 5:34 am

Hi Michael and Sonic,

Hope sonic don't mind me chiming in to his thread Smile .

I have a question for Michael regarding the space cones, by looking at the pics (transformer and the position of the 4 space cones corners of the transformers over the floor) :

1 ) Can we apply the same way over your amp, preamp and cdp ?

2) If it is so will it have the same description as what Michael has been describing but maybe in a smaller similar or different effect ?

I have read around regarding space cone usage around the rooms and on certain parts of the equipments and also towards furnitures but not towards the whole amp/preamp/cdp itself.

Once again sorry Sonic using your thread.

Regards

Tj
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 07, 2015 9:40 am

Hi tjbhuler

Actually you are welcome here! Sonic hopes and wishes you would come over here often for a chat, discuss, question and share ideas. I would like to do the same on your thread if you like. That's how we both learn and help the Tune grow Very Happy

There are six Space Cones in my set up round the toroidal transformer pair.

Following Michael's advice I put the Space Cones back and started to move the transformers and cones apart a little. I think the imbalance is reducing (though still noticeable), yet the whole sound is beginning to change. I played familiar recordings and what Sonic heard was perplexing in that the system now sounded unfamiliar.

Something is going on here Exclamation for certain.

System now put on settling routine and I will post the changes as I hear them.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 08, 2015 4:12 am

Hi Sonic,

Thanks I always read your thread because there is so much of rich information that you have presented to all of us tunees. Your perseverance towards your audio journey over the years is legendary.

I however am not ready yet to dissect my amps, preamps and cdp (well apart than loosening the screws at the pcb, removing the covers and cutting the cable ties). Looking into ARC pre's and amp is scary and it is still new along with warranty steers me away from doing what you have done but maybe after a while (years Laughing ) I will attempt to do so.

That is why I asked that question to Michael is it possible and effective to use those space cones over the 4 corners of the amp, pre's and cdp as a whole or does it only work with certain parts inside those equipments scratch .

Regars

TJ
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 08, 2015 5:04 am

Hi Sonic

Let me know how it's going.

Do you have any styrofoam or paper cups?

After things settle, I would like to hear this

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S357

with the same placement only up on the cups.

This may not make sense to you but it will help me hear what your fields are doing.

step 2

After you do this, I would like you to cut a cup and make a cap out of it, then cover the cone.

Let me know the difference between these different settings with the cones in the same placement. Floor, raised then covered.

study

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 08, 2015 5:30 am

Hi TJ

Because your system is different (in the chassis) I have other ideas and plans for you Smile


Always something up my sleeve Wink

I'd like to get you into Platforms and then some cool top tuning a field tuners. However after I do a few things with Sonic it will help me size up what's going on over where you guys live, then I can make some custom toys, for you guys to play with.

Sonic's place being high humidity and hard walls, is acting as a field diffusor I believe, but will know more in a few days. Once I get a grip on how things are phasing in and out, then can make a model to play with. But first there are a few hoops to jump through. We have to match the electromagnetic field to the right dimensions, densities and electro-mechanical vibratory codes. Basically building electromagnetic antennas that can be used just like the floorstander products. Once the spacing is right the electromagnetic field and the mechanical pressure of the room can be tuned in closer together, we will head toward interesting results. This will let the soundstage clear up like someone lifted a blanket off the room. Sonic playing with the cones you can tell the room is wanting to have the fields tuned. They're more than likely fading in and out as the Earth rotates. Not to sound goofy but there's a reason they are called space cones Very Happy

let me explain further

In Sonic's case the one thing I'm concerned about are the electrical wires running through the walls. It almost sounds like the room is Shielding itself. The wires acting as the shield inductor and the walls the dielectric. Will be getting interesting in a little while. Sometimes though you can hit a spot in the room and things will tune in just like a FM signal. Pretty cool stuff Smile

Remember I was telling you guys about the wires surrounding us in a room? Well every room that has in-wall wiring whether it's on or off is a capacitor and as the Earth goes through it's cycle of Sun/Moon and to some extent other planets, this capacitor charges and discharges, kinda like the exchange of lightning.

Got to take a break, but one thing I wanted to leave with you guys to think about. What material was designed by nature to filter electromagnetic exchanges between the ionosphere and Earths core? Wood and plant fiber. Now you know why nature designed different species for different parts of the world. Trees as well as voiced wood are antennas.

What we're building together on TuneLand is our own tunable science lab. Again take a look at Hiend001's thread. Smile Then I think in the archives somewhere Jim and I talked about the musical forest. Our products are not just acoustical and mechanical they are also field tuners.

Remind me to talk about the fundamental response range sometime.

have fun

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 08, 2015 6:23 am

Hi Michael and Sonic,

Cool this will be super fun I am all about tuning. I have been reading alot from the archives untill now but I have to admit reading some of those articles is not that easy to understand  Embarassed .

Well for me the first part of learning is to be confused and then only will I start to learn Laughing .

One big question and issue I faced and asked myself after reading all those articles is when will I know that the sound is not correct because of acoustical, mechanical  or electrical problems? scratch

Regards

Tj
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 08, 2015 8:39 am


Hi tjbhuler

scratch scratch scratch after a while a Tune instinct develops and you start to know what causes what and how to tune it. Another thing is I try to be connected to acoustic unamplified live music and speech in places such as recital halls, rehearsal halls like school music rooms and in church and monasteries. This sets my compass of what the real thing sounds like -- so right now I am playing Beethoven's Eroica Symphony (No 3) on the digital player and having heard Ludwig van Beethoven's symphonies performed live by the local symphony orchestra, I have a sense of what my system should be delivering. Remember there is a lot more reality in the grooves of our LPs, pits of our CDs/SACDs and even our cassette tapes for us to unlock. Sonic not joking about this Exclamation

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 08, 2015 8:44 am

Story of the Transformed Transformers - 1

Sonic next moved the toroidal transformers forward by an inch from the amplifier casing and apart by the same distance. Then I added the six Space Cones around but more spread out from the transformers.

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S358

Observations: the imbalance is gone Shocked or so reduced that whatever effect is covered by variables in recordings.

The layout of the amp is straightforward with the device built in two halves so it was simple for Sonic to trace that the toroidal transformer on the Right (closer to the FS PZC/front wall) is the one that controls the Left channel.  So that is a zone Sonic needs to tune Idea ….it is a bit cramped there.

The sound has changed overnight – more rounded and projected but in the way a vintage EL34 push-pull tube amp with Brimar Thorn NoS tubes projects, that is a warm “rolled off” projection not the hard projection of horn speakers driven with transistor amps.

Here is now a slightly bigger sound and when Sonic played The Moody Blues’ Threshold of a Dream, the sci-fi mellotron effects were at many points all round me in the room, surrounding me and better yet had subtle details and other musical/effects within the wash of sound – most of which I knew were there in the mix but never stood out as part of a well thought out sound effect, but a couple are now audible but not before.

Sonic will look at easing the jam around the Right transformer next, report the effect -- then get into cups.

Question: Michael, when you say cut the top of the cup and make a cap for the Space Cones, you used the singular – cap one Space Cone or all six?  

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 08, 2015 10:39 pm

Hi Sonic

The key here is I want you to take your time and let the field settle. My guess was correct according to the pics so that's good, I'm starting to hear the fields.

Now I want you to be thinking space, rings, fields, placement materials, with a mindset that will help you during the tuning. I also want you to take another look at the wires you have connecting these parts. It looks to me like they are still curvy. When you get your Type 1, look at how straight it is and compare this to any single wire runs.

I haven't shipped yet so if your going to need more type 1, better let me know, cause if those wires are wiggly like they look you are going to want to get that straighten out, and since I have this baked wire here, you might want to save yourself some shipping and have enough on hand. Also, when you splice cables make sure the wires are making the best path they can.

here's some tips

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S359

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 08, 2015 10:49 pm

Hi Sonic

"Question: Michael, when you say cut the top of the cup and make a cap for the Space Cones, you used the singular – cap one Space Cone or all six? "

mg

I drew it as one to save time but I start with one and then go through and do them all as I listen inbetween each step of the way. Keep in mind all those cables are part of the field's arrangement as you are noticing and the waves are both horizonal and vertical.

I'm pretty methodical in my listening as you know Rolling Eyes . Sometimes it seems like it takes me forever I know but for me it's all about the settling and trying not to miss anything as the energy takes it's natural course.

have fun

Sonic said

"Observations: the imbalance is gone Shocked or so reduced that whatever effect is covered by variables in recordings."

mg

Becoming master and student of your own system gives great rewards.

Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 11, 2015 8:59 am

Hi Zonees

The sound is really good with what Michael showed Sonic relating to the Space Cones.

Before I go further testing them, and soon to receive the wires and power box from Michael, Sonic took time to listen to this:

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S360

Sonic found this in a record shop's discard bin.  A look at the vinyl told me why -- it was covered in light scratches, there was lots of dirt ground into the grooves.  It was a mess.  I got it for virtually nothing because of several other records Sonic bought.

I took it to the place where Sonic has records cleaned -- on a advanced device.  The Cleaner says to Sonic "it is useless, throw it away.  Worst I have seen etc".  Sonic says to clean it anyway.  After cleaning all the dirt was out but more scratches were visible.  Cleaner says "you'll wreck your Ortofon if you played this with it."

So Sonic brought out my Audio Technica AT LP120 and set it like I did in my post of Nov 7, 2014 (see the pix there, its the third page of this thread).

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S245

Fitted a new Audio Technica AT-95e, aligned to Stevenson setting, tracking at 2.25 gms.

And played.

Not too noisy, some distortion and occasionally too.  Only one skip.  No click clacking. Low level background crackling but every song was reasonably clear and enjoyable. Maybe it was because Sonic was expecting the worst.

The whole thing sounded better than the CD transfer of some of these songs. Sound of Jack Bruce's bass was awesome.  And for the first time, I could hear Ginger Baker's drumming captured well. Sonic now has this classic in my collection Very Happy  

The odd name of the album came from a malapropism.  Eric Clapton told a roadie he wanted to buy a racing bicycle and the roadie asked "one with disraeli gears?"  He should have said derailleur gears.  Everyone cracked up and it was Baker said that should be their next album title.  And so it was.
 
I still won't use the Ortofon 2M Blue to play this but this is so good I would bring the AT LP120 back in future and get more of these records.

Now onto the test of placing the Space Cones, transformers and foam cups.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 12, 2015 9:04 am

Story of the Transformed Transformers – 2

Considering Sonic went to a simpler system and removed the heavy ClampRacks only in mid March (that is less than three months ago) this year – the progress my system has made in 2 ½ months is astounding! Thanks to Michael and advice from my fellow Tunees.

Sonic tried this to free up the space around the Right Hand transformer.

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S362

The Brazilian Pine board has been moved back and the FS-PZC brought out to the edge maintaining the same distance from the front wall. The FS-DRTs do not rest on the Brazilian Pine board.  They float free on mountings from Michael Green applied here.

After a couple of days of intense settling, Sonic’s assumption that the right transformer needed moving further apart along with the Space Cones to create aural space, is not completely beneficial.  A little more space but there is a clanginess in the mid-range and upper bass thinness that robs the music of the dense harmonic impact that Sonic recently got in the system.

So we go back to:

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S361

The sound is back last evening with a convincing sense of reality. Reproducing fortepiano pieces.

So on to foam cups.  

Sonic’s set up of cups looks like this:

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S363

The bottom of the cups are not flat but has bumps from the manufacturing process so the Space Cones do not sit flat on the surface.

After several CDs played to run things in, Sonic noticed a hollowness to the sound, then the midrange became more “sparkling” than usual or reality. The upper bass is now a little thin so the sound of the orchestra shifted up.  

Sonic has learnt from Harold that my T3 speaker cables along with the T2s are shipping and this means the package will reach me next week. I therefore removed the cups and will not try capping the Space Cones. Best to get the system in a place where the sound is where I like it and wait till the T3s are delivered and installed, then take the measure of the sound.  

Given that my split T1s speaker cables are not ideal for the system – I mean Hiend001’s great tuned system is on T3s  Shocked  -- and given that two wrongs don’t make a right, Sonic should now just listen to lots of musick and wait till the T3s get here and I install them.  If my speaker cables are indeed too thin to reproduce the girth, bass and size of the musick, the T3s will be a revelation. Sonic should now be patient.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 13, 2015 10:16 am


Story of the Transformed Transformers – 3

Sonic had an all-night listening session starting with CDs then LP after LP. Wonderful music spanning everything from Bob Dylan -- Slow Train Coming (played twice through), Hubert Laws, Leo Kottke plus more Smile

As I stored the last record away for the night, Sonic had a nagging feeling confused The midrange colouration that I had noticed each time Sonic has applied Space Cones and let them settle was back.

The tone of this colouration had had changed, now less noticeable because it is lower in frequency. A slight loss of headroom when playing loud.

Not that Sonic was sleepless from this. After a good morning's sleep, I removed the Space Cones from the room and set the system on settling mode with the "settling CD" playing on and on.

Then Sonic listened and thinks that midrange colouration is gone Exclamation The sound is slightly darker which is what my notes say before the transformers where moved apart and away from the amp chassis and the Space Cones applied. This slightly dark, tubey sound is something Sonic likes and can live with comfortably.

But found something that Sonic inferred from Michael as true. The spacing of the toroidal transformers from each other have some effect on the sound. Keep them away from each other!

Is this a sound I heard or is Sonic influenced by the charts from Mr Green of the field lines from the two transformers Question Of course logically if they are too close to other then the fields interfere. Unless the designer knew this and built the system such that the two fields were out of phase and zeroed each other when the two transformers are side by side. Appears not this.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 13, 2015 11:15 pm

Hi Sonic

Sounds like the Space Cones are needing some voicing. This might be a little time consuming for you right now, but we can re-visit this when you have the time to move a little slower, no biggie Smile

For quick testing sometime, do the same thing with copper pennies, zinc washers, Harmonic Springs and report to us so I can get a read on your field. Also go back to the Space Cones sometime and place the zinc washer on the cones. I won't keep pushing the use of the Space Cones I just want to play with the field you have there and what materiels it likes and doesn't like. One thing I haven't shared much is I have made Space Cones and other antennas out of a wide range of materials and shapes.

Also keep in mind heights and surfaces. The important thing is your learning the field and will be able in time to make it adjustable.

Let me know when you get the cable, and plan on that chapter to be another "over time" experience.

this is fun stuff, but as you are seeing time spending  study

you said

"Is this a sound I heard or is Sonic influenced by the charts from Mr Green of the field lines from the two transformers Of course logically if they are too close to other then the fields interfere. Unless the designer knew this and built the system such that the two fields were out of phase and zeroed each other when the two transformers are side by side. Appears not this."

mg

Yeah, I wouldn't give high end audio designers that much credit Laughing

If they understood this stuff we would be seeing a much different looking audio componentry style. They'll maybe come around but not before getting their teeth knocked out a few times from more simply built components.

Here's a big clue to keep watching for. Smaller transformers and further away from the other parts. Transformer polution is a big problem in this hobby.

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 14, 2015 5:14 am

Story of the Transformed Transformers – 4

“Smaller transformers and further from other parts” says Michael Green as a mark of good tune.  

This will cause problems for designers of power amps where transformer size is linked to the stiffness of the power supplies which means transformers that increase in size with higher wattage and power supply requirements.  If it is an integrated amp or tube amp with the output transformers, you are going to get a lot of stuff squashed together or if you spread them out, unreasonably large cabinets -- three or four times the volume of today’s gear.

Mr Green says he has made antennae out of things other than Space Cones – like zinc washers and Harmonic Springs. Harmonic Springs  Exclamation

Exclamation  I got a number of Harmonic Springs – machine wound plated, machine wound matt, hand-wound unplated.  “This is easy to try” thinks Sonic.

As I started to lay out some machine wound matt Harmonic Springs (there weren’t enough plated ones), Sonic was thinking “yes, this might work given the signature I got with Harmonic Springs is rounder and fuller than cones like MTDs and Space Cones.”

Sonic realized too that I am tuning to get a specific sound in my head.  That sound of course has revolved over time but a sound there is in Sonic’s head that is a reflection of musical reality.  To describe it I might say this target sound is “tubey with dense harmonics, sweet in the highs with little edge, a 3D midrange, good transients with a mid-bass that punches forward, and of course a deep low end.”  

Strange perhaps to articulate it this way, but my experience with live music parallels this – cellos have projection, plucked string basses have enough thump to poke one in the belly when listened to up close, pianos are complex sounding instruments. An orchestral bell can be sweet, played so softly that it is barely audible yet floats above the ensemble.  

Sonic then recalled that in tuning, I found often that Michael’s hand-wound Harmonic Springs were often too warm in several applications. What if they gave this flavor when used as antennae round the toroidals?  I got lots of them…so away with the machine wound Harmonic Springs and Sonic did this:

Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 S364

The toroidal pair is now surrounded by 13 hand-wound Harmonic Springs.

Settling is progressing. First impression with a fully warmed up system (but not settled), tells me I may have got a bigger, warmer mid-bass and no edge in the treble when playing a harpsichord CD. So far, the instrument imaged well in my room and having listened to large harpsichords close up (not the smaller spinets), this sound and tonal balance is in the ballpark. Thinks Sonic but notice my use of a tentative description. Let’s see…

Sonic


Last edited by Sonic.beaver on Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:03 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Fix grammar, add missing words, fix typos, changed numeral)
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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 14, 2015 8:09 am

Hi Sonic

I should also add, that this will happen as a proccess.

“Smaller transformers and further from other parts”

Speakers will also become much easier to drive with smaller magnets. I don't necessarily see this as being R&Ded by the high end audio guys, but more by the next chapter of the masses. I believe recordings will be done differently as well.

Don't worry we will always have the stereo movement, in our lifetime at least, but the future holds a different look, function and lifestyle.

When ever you hear me talk about the age of the hologram, this is what I'm talking about. As soon as center room holograms (already designed) come on the market recordings will be done in Quad (already being made) from then on. This will over-take the home entertainment world. Once people get a taste for being in the soundstage it's hard to go back to looking at a box of sound.

How soon? Don't know but it's getting closer every day. A lot of this will be pushed by the "gaming industry". It doesn't take much to see how this will go, plus I know some of the team doing it Smile

How does this tie in with smaller amps?

How much power do you need if your speakers are corner designed Idea 4 corners, 4 speakers, quad recordings. It all adds up when you think about it. It will be a while before this whole thing will compete with our tunable stereo setups but quad will end up taking over. Surround Sound almost did it but the engineers never stopped fussing, and after a while there were too many choices. With 4 or 4.1 it's easy for anyone with your typical room of 4 walls.

Who wants to bet me dinner that I'm wrong scratch Of course by the time it happens I won't have teeth to eat my steak. Smile

enjoying your testing study

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PostSubject: Re: Tuning My Musical Journey   Tuning My Musical Journey - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 14, 2015 9:06 am


Hi Michael

Won't have teeth to eat your steak.....then Sonic bets you a soy-veggie-puree steak dinner that the holographic soundfield of tomorrow will be delivered by headphones with some vision goggles and tactile sensing systems, not with loudspeakers in arrays as we imagine them now.

Sonic
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