Tuning a New World of Computer Audio Playback

Hi Zonees!

More on JBL 4343 martial arts from this Forum:

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/the-true-reason-why-vintage-jbls-are-so-popular-in-japan.641074/

Here Sonic reads that “Forward presentation speakers for Jazz, big sound stage speakers for classic, is Japanese audiophile consensus.”  

Meaning Sonic supposes that for jazz music, speakers with projected responses (in the mids) like JBLs and Altec are preferred by Japan audio-fans and loudspeakers that throw large soundstages are found desirable by them for classical music. I suppose this has to be taken in context of these Audio-fans' often tiny listening rooms and/or their peculiar room acoustics.

A quintessentially Japanese audio picture:




A Philosophical Point

This approach does call forth a point for Sonic and Zonees to get our heads around:

Is our hobby (audio) about attempting to recreate some objective reality we assume, but are never fully certain, is captured within the magnetic traces, record grooves and the 111001010s of our digital media;

OR

Are we attempting to create (not recreate) a musical experience in our homes, never mind if accuracy is compromised even ignored. An experience where the definition of what it is and what creates it may change day by day  

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

The Space Cones have been “seeded” by Sonic in this way:

a. one cone on every wall wart powering the turntable, computer, DAC, crossover, phono stages: 7 Space Cones

b. on sundry Low Tone Redwood blocks supporting devices and on the X-30 tuning platform: 14 Space Cones

c. in a grid around the main amp transformers (as Michael once advised me) and on transformers: 10 Space Cones

Sonic has chosen these spots for a. and b. because Michael says in his product description for Space Cones that “everything in your house vibrate. What these parts and pieces don’t do is vibrate in harmony (in-tune). The Space Cones is your tool to put your mechanical and electrical materials in tune with each other.”

In the case c. Michael once advised Sonic to place the Space Cones this way to control fields around the toroidal transformers. His advice was to place a grid of six Space Cones surrounding the two toroidal transformers of the main amp. Sonic placed a grid of 9 Space Cones on the floor.

Mr Green also pointed out to me that there are big fields that extend up and down the centre of toroidal transformers perpendicular to the plane of the torus. To tune this field, he has made Tuning Poles of special wood that are bolted to the core of the torus up and down with a Space Cone topping of the assembly, with the whole thing in a mini-platform. Sonic may rig something up to address these fields.

I also placed one Space Cone on the Rotel amplifier that drives the Janis W-1 subwoofer.

In the days Sonic started placing the Space Cones, there is a glimmer that the Tandem-Tune approach is working. The muddiness from the placement of the FS-DTs is being balanced out by more midrange and treble shift from the Space Cones.

As Sonic has found that Space Cones settle slowly, so I should go slow reporting the results and avoid any premature pronouncements on how things are going till there is some certainty.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

An additional reason why the Tune of separating the Paradigm X-30 crossover from its case is so successful might be in part to removal of damping insulation pieces stuck to the bottom of the circuit boards.  These pieces are essential to prevent any electronics touching the metal case and shorting or causing pops/bangs that might blow speakers. Yet damping being what is has side-effects of closing down the sound and soundstage size.

This is what Sonic means – the pads you see in this picture are located where they were originally mounted on the underside of the circuit boards.



Zonees will see two Space Cones on the mini-platform used in the Tandem-Tune.

For those of you wondering what Michael advised Sonic on controlling the fields round my amp transformers and his device to control fields referred to in my last post, here they are:





The Tandem-Tune appears to be beneficial.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Will be interesting to see how the settling goes

I can't wait to get caught up on my projects so I can get back to serious listening. For the heck of it I laid out some Space Cones and dots in room 3. The next day I put in my order for 20 more. Once you get these babies to energize it's like being inside of an acoustical energy field, pretty trippy

Another trick I did was to take them outside and set them in the direct sun (110 degrees) for 6 hours, brought them in (must have heated to 150 or so) and sat there in shock The second and third row of strings came out of the fog and became crystal clear. The mid bottom seemed to have found hidden tones.

If I get time (doubtful ) I might do it again today and listen to Simon & Garfunkel "live in central park". Love the crowd in this recording.

Always something to have fun with

QUESTIONS FOR MICHAEL

MG: For the heck of it I laid out some Space Cones and dots in room 3. The next day I put in my order for 20 more. Once you get these babies to energize it's like being inside of an acoustical energy field, pretty trippy!

Sonic: Where in your room did you lay out these Space Cones -- give me some ideas to try, were the Space Cones in corners, in front, behind the listener, in middle of the room on the floor -- where? I would like to get inside this acoustical energy field

MG: Another trick I did was to take them outside and set them in the direct sun (110 degrees) for 6 hours, brought them in (must have heated to 150 or so) and sat there in shock! The second and third row of strings came out of the fog and became crystal clear. The mid bottom seemed to have found hidden tones.

Sonic: did the effect go away as the Space Cones cooled? Will using an oven do the same?

Greetings Zonees!

The Space Cone application experiment as a Tandem-Tunes progresses.

Hey Michael -- where did you put those Space Cones in Room 3?

Now back to Sonic's system -- this time round with the Space Cones, there is less upward shift in frequency though some is noticeable which Sonic remedied by reduction in the number of Space Cones employed:

a. Space Cones on the all Low Tone Redwood blocks have been removed – as Sonic hunted for the source of the upward tone shift, I found the Space Cones turned out to not have much effect on the Low Tone Redwood blocks so I shall not go waste precious Space Cones.

b. The Space Cone on the Wall Wart that powers the Tube Phono Stage has been removed – it made the sound of the analog side of Sonic’s system thin/tipped up in frequency balance which led me on the road to reducing the number of Space Cones used in this Tandem-Tune arrangement.

So where are the Remaining Space Cones?
We now have Space Cones on the computer, the computer power supply, the Aune x1s wall wart, the Rega P5 wall wart, the X-30 wall wart, on the X-30 mini-platform as you saw in the pix of July 24, and around the toroidal transformers of the main amp. In total 16 Space Cones used in the system at this stage.

The sound is good playing both analog and digital sources.

Now waiting for more settling to occur and for Michael to reply so I can apply the Space Cones in the way Michael did in Room #3 and get that big field!

Sonic has been playing lots of LPs since the weekend, no digital files. Just listened to an RCA recording of Sir Malcolm Arnold’s English and Scottish Daces (R Irving cond. the Philharmonia Orchestra) and a Supraphon LP of Viola da Gamba pieces by Louis de Caix d’Hervelois – Pieces de Viole Book 1 (F Slama – Viola da gamba/J Hala – Harpsichord). The Rega P5 with the Ortofon 2M Blue is working well and this turntable is known for its extremely low record groove noise. And it sure is!

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Sonic said

"Hey Michael -- where did you put those Space Cones in Room 3?"

mg

First thing I did was put on "the bird and the bee" and listened for a few minutes.  I usually let the recording itself tell me what I'm about to do. This of course after I have gotten to know my current setup for a little while. It's not all that hard to see if a recording is somewhat working or not.

Second thing I do is start thinking about what tools might be wanted to achieve certain sounds. In this case I heard a little mid left hole and a looser bass line. The crossover was right on the money as well as tonal balance so I didn't head in that direction. Keep in mind I have several closets full of toys and if the sound I'm hunting for is in one of those spaces, I start creating a new tool. This recording was not that tough.

Sitting in my rooms I have become use to the different forces that change the sound, sometimes sounding similar and other times sounding very unique and definitive. With system 3 sounding the way it did (with this recording), my mind focused on two main things. One the sound of the glass in the room, two, the electrical field. Either one of these could be creating the hole along with many more issues. My method is usually to move one step forward, take an A/B step back to get a clear sense, then keep this in mind as I move forward.

I took one Space Cone and set it on the hollow round foot I'm using under the front edge of the Luxman amp platform and the energy in the room and signal immediately made itself known. It's kinda like I sprayed audio windex in the room and everything became clear. I studied this sound for a moment and moved on leaving the SC there, knowing that I might just be using it or them to reset the field in the space. It's a powerful tool

I then went around the place setting Space Cones and listening to the energy get itself in tune. The immediate effect is sometimes too clear, but a very good resetting value. During this time I usually find that as I set a new placement I might go back and remove or reset an earlier placement. You have to get use to playing with the energy in your space to really start to understand what these tools do. Once you go through a few cleanup sessions it's easier to at least come up with a method if not a permanent placement. For my own listening I use Space Cones as more session setters than permanent fixtures. But I'm like that with a lot of listening sessions or seasons. I say this all the time "the music is my reference, not the system". The system is a tool to get to the music and level of listening we want to achieve during a particular listening session and for me, I don't think of this as being something that you "fix" and leave unless you want to hear the music through the systems point of "Ever Changing View". In other words, when settling is good, enjoy it. When settling takes a shift, or you change to a recording that may be a little or even a lot out of tune, don't think of the system or the tools, or even the recording as being a bad thing. Your system (the whole system) is simply out of tune. So many times this hobby preaches "fixed" audio, and even we as tunees get stuck in that "I've got to find that one sound" mentality, forgetting or maybe not accepting the truth about playing a moving hobby.

While playing this recording I found myself changing, or should I say working, with the system, recording and energy till I found a placement (in my listening) that made me want to go through the recording as an unique moment. Fixing the hole in the stage was as simple as leaving a Space Cone on top of my front SAM FS. And that Space Cone on the Hollow Foot ended up being removed after the system recharged itself.

The Space Cone tweaking I did that made the recording explode took maybe 15 minutes in total, using 12 Space Cones for full resetting and only one Space Cone remaining through the listening session. That was unique to this particular session. There are times I might keep the Cones in a system for months and other times for a few minutes. The method however and understanding what can be done and when it should be done is something I think is more than likely a practice that we all grow into.

Remember when I started using blocks? How many of you were tempted to sell off your cones ? Well that's not how the tune works, in my eyes at least. The tune to me is an action word. It's not so much one thing replacing another like this hobby sales itself. Tuning is about being able to get to that one recording and make it come to life. Tuning is about understanding "motion".

Trading placement ideas is a good thing. Expecting the same results is, even for this designer and listener, wishful thinking. When you guys give me specifics in your sound based on one recording, I can relate to. Sometimes I get lucky and feel what you are hearing based again on you, but learning this incredible method together is where it is at. It's what take us past the audiophile hobby and into something much deeper.

Those Space Cones are some powerful tools. I'm glad your getting the hang of them. I'm sure they will teach you things never discovered before. They certainly have me.

Greetings Zonees

This is truly the Maestro in action    

What I don’t understand (maybe one day I will) is why Michael chose the footer of the amp when he had some many other places to start.  

Michael -- where did the other Space Cones go in your room to change the fields before you removed them?

This is the first instance where Sonic has heard you can take RoomTune devices, place them to correct something and then remove the devices and the correction stays.  

These six pictures show where the Space Cones are presently applied in my system.



This is the first time Sonic has found some success with the Space Cones, although my application is still static -- that is, one size fits all or one setting for most or all recording played.

Zonees should know that this is a work in progress and the next week may me post pictures and report this system with the same, more, or less Space Cones possibly some in different places.  

Michael -- could you go to Page 2 of this thread, look at my posts of March 7 and March 21 where I have pictures that give a 360 degree view of Sonic's listening room.  Where will you put some Space Cones in addition to those in the pictures today?

Sonic is still tuning, still experimenting to find the way to use the Space Cones that will make "recordings explode" like they did for Michael  

 
Let’s start the 360 degree tour!

Starting with the view from my listening chair facing Left:



Here is the rear RH corner:



And the rear LH corner:



The ceiling:



The space to be tuned:



Sonic

"Michael -- where did the other Space Cones go in your room to change the fields before you removed them?"

Hi Sonic

Interesting question that I need to think about answering correctly.

Greetings Zonees  

While Sonic waits for Michael’s answer and suggestions three things are appearing in my experience about Space Cones:

a.        they now work in my system

b.        their function is somewhat complex

c.        at a basic level they can be placed on things that vibrate and the Space Cones “harmonise” these vibrations as advertised, and then at another level which Michael has just described on this thread, they affect the “fields” in the room and can do Big Things with the sound.

Sonic may have found out something about the “fields” and the Big Things by a happy accident.  I left one Space Cone in a certain spot in my room/system and that evening the sound came alive! I thought it was the other Space Cones working and so I listened way past bedtime and was kind of a zombie at work the next day.  Then while cleaning the room I noticed that Space Cone and returned it to the storage cupboard, and that evening’s listening was OK though Sonic observed that Bigness and soundfield was gone.

Yesterday I brought that one Space Cone back to that spot and the sound has started expanding again    

Is Sonic encountering auto-suggestion after reading Michael’s post     Sonic will listen more with this placement of Space Cones and see!

As we proceed with discovery, for the analog-loving Tunees, here is something on the venerable Ortofon SPU that Sonic found at:

http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/ortofons-spu-at-least-one-of-them/

The rest of this post is an excerpt of the portions that Sonic found relevant to my thinking about audio. It is not the full article which can be read in full by clicking on the link.

Sonic


Ortofon’s SPU (at least one of them…)




SPU stands for “Stereo Phono Pickup.” The model was also one of the first moving-coil cartridges, and originally intended as a broadcast pickup.

The cartridge’s seductive sound quickly made its way to the era’s audiophiles, and represented a perfect fit for SME and other tonearms utilizing a universal headshell-mounting system. The somewhat low-compliance SPU is heavy (30 grams) and includes an integral headshell comprised of Bakelite.

Eight variations on the design currently exist, and three are mono versions.

[Using a Technics SL1200 and an SME 3009]….the arm provides the subtlety required to extract maximum performance from the SPU.

The SPU grabbed me at first listen; this is indeed a special sound.

The best balance of tracking and high-frequency response occurs at 4.1 grams.

This cartridge will not be for everyone and every record, and unless you live on a steady diet of music from the 50s to the mid-70s, forget about employing it as a solitary cartridge.

The SPU claims a likeable warmth and unmistakable tonality. If you’re on a quest for tonal accuracy, pass.

The SPU is all about major tonality. Set the conical stylus down on a Jimi Hendrix album and…..Hendrix’s guitar oozes so much soul, you can almost feel the grille cloth on his early Marshall cabinets flap. As it is with John Bonham’s bass drum on the first two Led Zeppelin albums; it’s more than just about adding weight to the presentation. The SPU provides a distinctive level of tonal saturation.

The key to successfully enjoying the SPU stems from playing favorite records that have a slightly compressed tonal range. Then, let the SPU do the work. Even some of today’s pressings prove a perfect match for the SPU. If the LP sounds a little flat on your standard cartridge, there’s an excellent chance it will come to life on the SPU. And if that sounds a little like a tone control, so be it.

Recordings with a ton of dynamic range come off sounding slightly lifeless. Music Matters’ Blue Note pressings, which blast out of the speakers, are more subdued with the SPU, where the older originals really shine.
It’s exactly the opposite with a modern, high-performance MC cartridge; vintage discs are less exciting, yet the Music Matters discs explode.

While the SPU’s lower register is a bit under-damped (which can be awesome in the right system), the high-frequency side is smooth and extended. And if you guessed that the elliptical stylus makes for a great tracker, you are correct, even the idea of a little piece of diamond undulating through the groove walls at 4 grams is a bit unnerving.

Mids are where the music is at, and it’s here where the SPU excels. Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young’s classic Deja Vu offers great harmonies, and the SPU clarifies their individual voices with gusto. Play to the SPU’s strengths and you might get spoiled for anything else.

Much like a pair of Quad 57s, the SPU does its thing with panache and might be better at painting a warm, musical, soulful picture of your records in a manner no other cartridge can.

Way too many audiophiles miss out on this hobby because of misinterpretations of Harry's "absolute sound". Even Harry himself fell prey to his own words many times because he was trying to make a movement take place as so many writing egos do. There's only so much time in a lifetime and this is why I stay on the edge of high end audiophile-ism.

Taking a "one sound" system and calling it a reference instead of the music and physics being that referenced moment is exactly where the "high end audiophile", who can not get out of the thinking funk of the absolute sound blow their hobby. Maybe it's because they have a listening discipline outside of the "audio"-"phile" hobby. But the above post is what gives audiophile it's meaning. Audiophile is the pursuit of audio, the pursuit of "sound" and the variations of it.

Why do I so many times refer back to some older equipment? It's because of the magic of sound. Each generation of audio gives us a chapter in this book that is unique all to itself. We keep trying to make it all fit into the world of today and the sound of today, but the truth that the "stereophile, absolute sound" version of audiophile doesn't understand, is the history of audio and the many sounds that come with it. Not only the sounds that come with it, but also the tools to get that sound.

This hobby has a flaw built into it that holds it back from becoming a true audio-phile hobby. It misses what makes this hobby work, differences. Being able to explore different eras of recorded sounds is part of what makes this adventure work. It's all about being IN-tune and understanding the different concepts of being in-tune. Varied adjustable audio is the whole ball game. The actual act of tuning "IS" the hobby. All the other fixed myths are nothing more than a failed long term experiment. The experiment of discrete, the experiment of inert, the experiment of isolation and the experiment of one sound are all failures. Take a vinyl pressing from 45 years ago. Use the exact same pressing machine and make a vinyl back 45 years ago and today (of course you'll need a time machine) . Play those two recordings and experience how different they sound. Here's another. Take a vinyl pressing #5 and compare it with a #1500 pressing. Again different sound. Let's go even a little bit more picky. Take 2 records from the mid sixties exactly the same and put them in two different sleeves. Open them up now and play them, different.

point being

I love pictures like above because I can almost hear the sound. Part of being an audiophile (maybe one of the most important parts) is taking in the differences of this hobby and putting those signatures into context. Not better and not worse, but different in ways that gives us the meaning of the music and the times that music took place. Sometimes we put on a recording today and it sounds horrible only because we are not playing that recording according to it's context (signature). After making the necessary that same recording fills the room and comes to life as though we have stepped into a time machine ourselves.

Sonic, what do you use under and with your Space Cones?

Greetings Rotelguy

For the Space Cones in the pictures, there is nothing under them. They just sit on the surface of the objects/floor you see them on, I don't have any Michael Green wood under them. The Space Cones on the computer casing and the wall-wart powering the ASUS computer have a bit of semi-dried double-sided adhesive tape from an earlier installation, so these two Space Cones are lightly adhered to their respective objects.

Sonic does not understand the second part of your question -- what I am using "with" the Space Cones. If you elaborate I will let you know as best Sonic can.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

That accidental placement of the Space Cone appears to be changing the “atmosphere, the air” in Sonic’s room. At the same time, I can hear some of the shift upward in midrange and highs that Space Cones have in previous attempts have brought about, but this time the upshift is small and the application of Space Cones on balance is beneficial.

Sonic will spend a bit of time of the next few days changing the number of Space Cones and their placements and see what results.

As an aside, Sonic was sent this letter published on Stereophile Online.  Have a read.

This would mean that if the signal to noise ratio of the best and best-maintained analog tape machines gets to about -80 dB, the equivalent resolution works out to something like 13 or 14-Bits if Sonic understands the usual x-Bits/SNR tables to found on the internet correctly.  


Editor:

I have enjoyed Art Dudley’s “Listening” column for years, especially the builds, and neat ideas like having home concerts. His March column, though, made me want to write.

He wrote: “Once you convert an analog music recording—a thing of virtually infinite resolution and remarkable complexity—into a digital file, you have reduced the amount and the density of data in that recording by at least some degree.” My issue is not with the fact that a copy, whether analog or digital, will reduce the amount of data, but with the notion that an analog music recording has virtually infinite resolution.

This idea that analog recordings have infinite resolution has been written about a lot on the Web, and I think it has spread because it seems reasonable. The idea, as I understand it, is that an analog recording can preserve a continuum of amplitudes, at least down to the atomic level, and so has virtually infinite resolution. Unfortunately, the first does not imply the second. Yes, the magnetic field in a tape or the groove in a record can take an infinite number of values, but resolution has to do with how faithful the recording is to the input signal. For audio recordings, the input is a voltage, so resolution has to do with how well the recording medium can distinguish one voltage level from another. This is limited by noise. Given the exact same input, we would like to have the exact same output. Because of the noise in a system, this will never be the case. No recording medium, analog or digital, can exactly reproduce the input voltage. Resolution in audio systems is generally measured using signal/noise ratio (SNR), defined as log10 (signal power/noise power).

If we go simply by resolution, then digital recording is much better. The best Studer or ATR tape machines, fully calibrated and recently demagnetized, are hard-pressed to reach 80dB SNR. The best A/D converters reach 123dB SNR. If we do a general comparison, like THD+N, which measures the total difference between the input and the output signals, digital again wins out. This, of course, does not mean that a digital recording is perfect. There are a multitude of distortions in digital, such as jitter and aliasing, that may cause people to prefer analog recordings.
Going back to the original thought: If we make a digital copy of an analog music recording, we will reduce the amount and density of the data, but this will also occur if we make an analog copy. So if we had the original Beatles tapes and wanted people to hear them as faithfully as possible, we either have a tape machine in everyone’s house and pass the original tape around, or we make a digital reproduction.

—Dr. Shawn Hunt

hunt@ece.uprm.edu


Sonic

Greetings Michael and Zonees

The number of Space Cones that Sonic is using may be contributing somewhat to a “hardness” colouration that gets activated by violins or brass when playing in a certain range.  This “hardness” is the kind of thing that you might expect from solid brick and plaster walls. Fortunately, this effect is relatively tamed in Sonic’s room most of the time though not eliminated, and yet once you hear it, the colouration is recognized and then the mind plays its tricks.

I have also found the “accidental” Space Cone placement to work, so now Sonic is moving slowly with getting the right number of Space Cones in the system.

Michael – your answer to Sonic’s question on “where did the other Space Cones go in your room to change the fields before you removed them?"

Your answer will guide me on how to go about using the Space Cones to tune the fields in Sonic’s room.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

Here is my present set up of the EQ:



The cabling used is whatever Sonic had in the closet which is some Belden coaxial for the Send from the Quicksilver and some leftover Michael Type 1 for the Return.  

What Sonic learnt after these many months from my “Electronic Frequency Tuning” so far is that there are different forms of correction required by recordings. Broadly there are three types Sonic has encountered so far:

Type 1:  Tonal Correction – this is easy to think about, some recordings are too bright/dull, some too mid-forward or recessed, some too thin sounding, others to bassy often in some of combination with each other.  Like a Bach recording Sonic likes sounded better when 1 khz was cut by 2dB, 250 hz +2dB and 60hz +3dB.

Type 2: Imaging Correction – the recorded images of voices and instruments may be odd in terms of size and placement

Type 3: Spatial Correction – this is the ambient field, natural or from machines.  Some recordings are too dry, others have too much reverb.

The EQ as I am learning to use it affects Type 1 most of all and to some extent the other because getting the tonal balance right can get the imaging in shape which in terms gives more realistic spatiality. Though it might also go the opposite way – getting the Tone right might show up where the engineer failed in Imaging and Spatiality. Then to get these right will need Michael’s products like wood pucks, adjustment to top tune and rack/platform surfaces.  At this point this stuff is beyond Sonic’s ability.

Correction takes some thought and effort, I find not every recording needs the labour of correction.

Sonic is learning to recognize the frequency spectrum and which band of the EQ influences what. Normally if I do any correction I start with just a bit of lift that the extremes (no more than +2dB) yet Sonic encountered a recording that with 40hz +4db,  250 hz Flat then 1khz, 5khz and 10khz +2db. With this setting the recording seemed to “click” and make sense, yet hearing it flat this is not the first setting that comes to mind.  Those records really come alive with some EQ.

For those Tunees who are ABBA fans, Sonic learnt from a very discerning listener who is into Digital EQ/DSP big time that to get that Swedish group to sound right the curve is -6dB @ 2 khz, +2 db @ 500 hz and a slope starting from 250hz to +5dB @ 40hz.
 
Of course, the best soundstage and presentation you get comes when you don’t sit in the listening chair and have a laptop on your lap. Just the machine’s physical placement can affect the sound, not to mention the EMI.

Just listen as if you are in a concert hall, at most have the record sleeve in your hand, maybe a glass of your beverage of choice at you side.

Sonic is soaking in the musick.  



Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic is staying put with the Space Cones experiment till I get fresh guidance from Mr Green because I know the signs of what’s creeping up -- once Sonic starts removing Cones from my room/system to reduce any “hardness”
colouration, this action is the start of earlier cycles:

Applying Cones -> Finding they work -> Post a report on Tuneland of Disover/Progress -> Enjoy listening for period of time -> Start hearing a tip up in Tone –> Reduce number of Space Cones -> Reduce Space Cones even more -> End up with no Space Cones in the system

For now Sonic has removed that “accidental Space Cone” and defaulted back to the earlier application of Space Cones where I thought of them as “harmonisers” of things in my system that produce vibrations rather than attempting to employ them for “fields”.

While Sonic is playing Dave Brubeck’s Time Out, here’s some thoughts about the Tune:

All my interconnects, loudspeaker cables are mounted loose and light as Michael and Tunees like Heind001 practice – for instance all RCA plugs in this set up are just inserted into their respective sockets barely enough to make contact and then pushed in a tiny bit more for safety and that’s it, in the case of loudspeaker cables, the wires are held down by the locking screws with the lightest contact and no more.

This gives me the best treble, most natural midrange and a bass that is more even and goes lower than if the plugs were inserted all the way and the speaker cables locked down tight.

My three phono cartridges are mounted tighter than this but still looser than many audiophiles who tighten their cartridge bolts to the point short of the screw threads stripping.

This practice of “light” connections has been proven time and again in Sonic’s system where each time I test something with connections tight, it closes down the sound, does funny things to the treble and causes the bass to go thin. Yet audiophiles and the magazines say connections must be tight in terms of torque with lots of contact area to sound good. Guided by the Tune, Sonic found the opposite to be true.

Of course “light” connections risky – if in the course of moving things about or touching a cable it might pop loose of its socket and cause a equipment-damaging “BANG!”

Are these “light” connections something that the mainstream designers know about but cannot apply commercially because of the risk – if something comes loose and people blow equipment or their ears the lawsuits will fly?

My point is that a lot of things in the Tune work wonderfully but Sonic observes that they result in systems and rooms that have to be set up delicately – like equipment racks set almost wobbly (when I used racks Sonic dreaded audiophile visitors attempting to give them a shake to see how rigid they were), “light” connections, amps with lids off and circuit board mounting screws cracked, equipment on woodblocks and top tuned – and the power supplies….I won’t even go talking about these.

Contrast this with the mass users of audio equipment – like those who live in small apartments, who use active bookshelf speakers placed under furniture and use an iPhone as their music storage and playback device.

These people (from those Sonic knows personally) do not sit for hours listening to files, CD and LPs. They are always multi-tasking, working/connecting with acquaintances by social media while eating/music playing all at the same time.

With the internet and so much of our lives contained in our hands with our phones and sound delivered with ear buds while on the go, this is a social megatrend that is happening the world over and even Sonic finds myself multi-tasking in a way similar to this except my “me-time” is with nearly undivided attention listening to music and poetry played back on my system.

Can the Tune be ever brought to this mass-market or will what we Zonees do so painstakingly be something that will forever sit with a small number of dedicated hobbyists and as this group of hobbyists develop different life priorities over time and age, who replaces them/us?

How to bring the Tune to a world of plug and play, maybe adopters of New Vinyl, the next generation of listeners and those who are now chasing the invisible playing Pokemon Go?

Perhaps even this is not the heart of the issue. Maybe it is this – what is the Core of the Tune that can be applied to a world of mobile devices, smaller dwellings and new ways of relating to music and personal entertainment

Sonic

Hello Zonees

You will have guessed Sonic like those wonderfully complex hi-fi systems that you see particularly in those Japanese magazines like Stereo Sound and Tube Kingdom.

Here is a picture of a fascinating system -- look at the Garrard.  I found it on the internet a lot of time ago so cannot recall the source.  



Sonic

Hi Sonic

Sorry I haven't jumped in, ran into some additional work this week that has knocked me off my schedule. Can't wait to get back to TuneLand but got to get some of these things done before fall season starts. This summer has certainly turned out to be a lot different than I thought it would.

That Garrard is awesome.

Greetings Michael

Good to hear from you. I would like to get your thoughts on the path of the Tune within the trajectory of personal entertainment in the future. We must remember that audio (home/personal) does not exist in isolation but within life, business and social trends which are very complex.

Would Sonic have thought when I started looking at the Tune 10 years ago that today I can exchange high-quality (FLAC and WAV) music files via a large-file relay system with an audio-fan on the other side of the planet in a moment, download the file, play the music and both of us can discuss the quality of the recordings and music by a chat/video app?

Sonic has brought the Space Cones experiment to a close after a few days since last week of not thinking of them and just enjoying musick.

This time we made progress and got to the stage where I got the Space Cones to work with certainty on the Wall Warts powering the Aune DAC, the X-30 crossover, the Rega TT and on the casing of the ASUS laptop. Sonic hopes that these insights and my struggles with the Space Cones have been useful to other Zonees reading this thread.

In the meantime, I started another experiment on Monday and over this week learned something surprising about my room.

More tomorrow.

Michael, for this one Sonic will need your guidance in quick time if possible. I might be on to something….

Sonic

Hello Zonees

You will recall this experiment where I moved the FS-DTs from the rear of the room to these positions:



It worked to improve the imaging and tone. However with settling, Sonic found the rear corners were getting in need of the control the FS-DTs (while there) were providing.  This is a “zero-sum” tune where moving something shifts the control about and might make an improvements somewhere but leave something untreated elsewhere. So I had to move them back.

This told Sonic that these zones behind the loudspeakers were significant, so I tried during a holiday this week to Tune them.

First a pair of spare EchoTunes went up in these spots:



The ETs had a good effect of illuminating the front corners of the soundstage but a midrange glare developed quickly and after half a day of settling it was not working.  

Sonic then turned the ETs to absorptive side out. Better….then as settling progressed over 24 hours, I found the sound has gone thin and the bass rolled off    

I took the ETs down and let the room get back to normal with background music and the evening listening was back to normal.

Sonic next took two pieces of thin cork sheets of about 3ft x 2ft x 0.25 inch and taped them to the walls in these places:



In bass really got swallowed up this time       It sounded like the subwoofer amp had been turned down accidentally. It seems like the Janis W-1 had fallen into some Black Hole.  Playing Enya’s Orinoco Flow which has some Big Bass loud, I crawled around my room and the bass at the Janis W-1 port made my ears pop yet at my listening chair the sound was thin and lightweight.

Cork removed, system returns becomes nice again and Longships from that Enya album rumbles my stomach and room again.

As a next test in the interests of science, I used 3M Command tape and put some spare Michael Green treated MW pieces where the ETs were.



The effect this time is surprising  

The sound became richer and the bass warmer and “bigger” and “floating” in space.  Celli in string quartets and the tenor and bass viols in baroque ensembles are developing better heft.  Previously the low notes were strong in a frequency sense, now they are “big” in a spatial sense.

Michael – What’s going on?  Audiophile thought say Bass has long wavelengths.  A thin EchoTune against a wall and a thinner cork sheet should have zero effect below something like 6khz, yet everything below 100hz is dropping away?

And now two pieces of treated Michael Green wood whose combined area between them  is around 1 square foot, each piece being ¼ inch thick makes such a difference for the better? How are these tiny surfaces attenuating waves that are 10 feet or longer in wavelength?

My Discovery – the Progress Made

Zonees should remember that Sonic did something like this years before and reported similar improvements in warmth/girth. See my earlier thread “Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics” (Page 4 November 9, 2012).



And these were removed in January 2014 (Page 21, Jan 17, 2014).

Remember my system set up was pretty different back them – I had racks, the FS-PZCs were in different places, the Janis W-1 subwoofer was on the other side of the room, the use of Low Tone Redwood and the Brazilian Pine boards were still in the future and I was still learning my room.  

Is this going in circles?

Sonic doesn't think so because when I read my posts back then and the number of room/system problems I was discussing with Michael such as:

• Out of control bass notes
  

• Inadequate imaging width
  

• Subwoofer integration problems
  

• “Banana soundstages”
  

• the BOO! problems at various frequencies
  

• Sound/instruments at speaker locations sounding different from the sound imaging elsewhere in the room
  

These are all solved problems today.

Back then my Tuning was largely corrective in nature – tuning to fix some problem. Today Sonic has moved to creating musical environments that take me closer to the heart and soul of the recordings I love.  Sonic can hear this in the range of recordings that sound great including those in my collection that formerly sounded odd/bad. While Sonic pushes Michael and he pushes back, this system is a long way from where we were in 2012 - 2014. I do notice that Michael and Sonic had much more to and fro interaction on the forum back then.  

Sonic

Hi Sonic

This has been the busiest summer I have had in years on many different levels in many different areas of life. I way over booked my schedule. My answers will be spotty at best I'm afraid (for now) cause I'm not able to get my mind in that usual MG can see the sound mode . So if I skip over stuff please forgive me

I will be back in full swing, some day   , but by the time I do you might have moved on and need to recycle the adventures you want to cover again.

I'll get there bear with me

One of the projects being worked on is http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/

Thanks Michael – all the best with the catching up

You are the Boss, the Maestro of Tuneland. Here’s hoping to have you back to your old level of activity soon

For Sonic, as I read back my earlier posts related to wood on the walls and how Sonic got to the point when the issues that vexed me were “solved problems”, I found that Michael had in fact called out all my problems accurately. I just didn’t know it at the time but by moving along the path he was defining, Sonic eventually built solutions for my room.

In re-reading Mr Green’s replies to my questions over the 2012–2014 period, Sonic found so many gems, some forgotten by me, that Sonic thought I would post some of those that were the foundation of Sonic’s fixing the major room problems. Maybe some fellow Tunees might find these useful.

Let’s go:

“Rooms usually respond corners out or centers in depending on the construction of the room” – Mr Green.

Sonic’s take: we usually start tuning from the corners because that is where the main pressure build up will be for most rooms. Some rooms like Sonic’s have to be tuned in from the centre. In such cases, tuning the corners have only moderate effect but do something in the geometric centre and KAPOW! the effect is much greater.

So if your room appears to somewhat unresponsive to corner tuning (which still should be done), the answer might be in the centre.

Sonic

Sonic found that I had previously experienced bass roll-offs when bringing Mr Green’s products close to my walls.  This issue was discussed once in Sept 2012.

Q: why the severe roll-off in the bass when the DecoTunes were brought close to the wall -- it was a slope that started above 100Hz and dropped 60Hz to inaudibility.

MG said: "Boundary tuning is like cutting with a knife (slope) and spatial tuning is more of a flow that is developed after the laminar effect happens and pressure is built. By following your room for years I would guess that your laminar effect is between the surface and maybe 7-9" out. After this you are dealing with pressure zones in the open."

Sonic’s comment: He was right and this answers the question I asked in my post of August 12, 2016 about why the pair of ETs rolled off my bass. Knowing the difference between tuning the flows along surfaces and the pressure zones that occur in the main volume of the room is important.  

Michael also said this:

"You've been talking about the midrange….(which in a balanced system) is taking the harmonics from the lows and the harmonics from the highs (which don't get talked about enough) and thickens or thins the middle."

"When the middle is lean it is very analytical but can shift upward fast. In an audiophile system they counteract this with killing the room, but if you took away their killing you would hear their systems tilt upward dramatically and the bass would probably show some problems of their own like thinness or boom. This is why they don't listen in open sounding rooms cause most of their systems are bright and brittle by nature and they have gotten use to the dull."

"The Tunee system has many times over the midrange vs the typical audiophile setups. True, out of balance it can sound ghosty or boo-y….with a dynamic range that leans toward ease and effortless tones. The instruments are complete, full and punctual. In a dampened room you hear a forced take off and a stop that is way before the instrument is done. At first it can sound dynamic but in time there is a clear lack of believability and you can tell huge parts of the music are missing altogether."

Hi Zonees  

Here are insights from a 2014 dialoque with Michael that Sonic hopes might be useful to your Tuning.

Here Mr Green decodes some fundamental problems of my room and gives an explanation why Sonic’s repeated attempts using Space Cones always end with an upward shift.  

So the case is closed on the Space Cones for me --the answer to my question was sitting here all along.

Happily, a lot has been achieved in Tuning my room in the intervening 2 years so Space Cones now work in this room/system as long as they are used very selectively and in small numbers (three in number maximum) on things that have their own wayward vibratory codes like computer gear.

Where you see some text [….], here Sonic has added something to give context. Other than that I only corrected typos here and there.  

From Michael when he learned that Sonic’s floor is not suspended but wood over concrete:

"So you haven't got full range resonance response on any wall, floor ceiling    

You have been trying to use inflexible surfaces to build full range. This is like next to impossible at least on a consistent basis. As soon as you think you've got the sound right it disappears right?

Your vibration is going from components and speakers right into the floor and coming right back up into the system without dissipating/dispersing naturally.

It's like your floor is acting like a big choke then reflecting back up into the system what it doesn't absorb.

The more you open up your system the more the signal makes it's way to the floor then because the full range cannot be dispersed (only a few select frequencies) the rest comes back into your system.

This is also why the [Space] cones are acting the way they are.

[The Space Cones are] acting like mid to high frequency magnets. There's not enough full range meat in the system to transfer so you get strange results……in the right environment do amazing things fullrange, but I can also see why they could back fire with all hard surfaces. The cones are built to send and receive, so when they are getting only part of the signal they are sending that part clearly and in your case right now you don't have enough going on in the way of "transfer to" in a fullrange capacity….

If you look at the people who are having fullrange you can see a common theme. Transfer that is not choked out. I would venture to say you have a good 1/3 of your harmonics gathered into a narrow band and when this is opened up you are going to hear far more of the harmonics in the way of body. This doesn't mean that this is your taste but what it does mean is you can open it up and dial (tune) it back in.

A thinner harmonic approach is not a bad one, but it can easily send the listener into high frequency and mid over load, leaving some of the content missing.

I go through this with several listeners. They want a certain sound but when they get there they notice that at the time of listening it sounds good to them but after a while their ears start to scream something is out of balance.

The first sign is usually in the high frequencies. Many times they take the entire musical range and move it up a couple of steps. At first things sound very clean, but then their brain starts to work and after a while they realize something is no longer natural. They think the system has changed when actually it is their brain that is trying to tell them this is not natural.

Bass can sound odd if not played with a full structure. Certain parts will stick out and seem to overwhelm some of the other parts to the flavor of the bass notes. You can have a lot of bass but when only part of it is playing (something that cannot be tested with a RTA) it can sound loud but strange (not blending with the rest of the bass note).

A note is not a frequency. A note encompasses the use of both high and low frequencies to form it's structure. If the high frequencies are thinned the lower notes will sound artificial and boomy.

Your notes are not opening up enough. Your tuning but within too narrow of a harmonic bandwidth. We need to eat some tome and get you fatten up. Once fat it's a lot easier to focus in on the details.

The hemlock [RoomTune Clamprack shelves, the heavy old gray ones made of hemlock chipboard] is too dense and hard for your flooring. Your signals vibration are wanting to stretch out but it's hitting into not enough warmth and the walls and ceiling are not making up the difference. If they gave more flex you might be ok and the signal to wave balance might have a better conversation, but right now there is not enough in the developing stage vs the room to compensate or complement each other.

We tend to think bass boom is a malfunction of the math [the dimensions of the listening room]in the room, I have found a lot of the boom is found inside of our components.  There's a great number of cycles being sent through that system and it's easy for a "frequency" to go out of balance."