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Sonic Voyager



Posts : 130
Join date : 2018-05-25

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 43 Icon_minitimeSun Jan 26, 2020 5:57 am


Hi Michael

Sonic wanted to ask you a question about perception of stereo imaging by different listeners.

Q: Have you ever encountered two different listeners hearing different image locations when listening to the same system, from the same listening seat and same CD?

An example: Listener A and B hear the same music thru the same gear and Listener A says "the guitar image is half left and about 2 feet behind the speaker plane" and Listener B says "no, I hear the guitar further to the right and right behind the speaker". Listener A: " the vocalist is quite forward of the speakers, projected into the room but a bit unfocussed". Listener B: "I hear the vocalist is quite focussed and centred between the speakers, not forward as you say."

So my question is whether different listeners perceive the soundfield differently locating images in different places?

Sonic

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Michael Green
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Michael Green

Posts : 3799
Join date : 2009-09-12
Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 43 Icon_minitimeWed Jan 29, 2020 5:36 am

Hi Sonic, great seeing you back more! I wish I had more time for TuneLand Forum but this last couple of years presented more tricky life's obstacles. The weeks have seemed like days to me they're going by so fast. The main problem is "Space". If my downtown TuneLand was just a listening writing space than maybe it would work, but doing some production too  Shocked  bom  Shocked there's simply no way in this tiny place, at least no way fast and healthy. Still, listening wise, I've had some fun moments and maybe even pushed or forced my skills to sharpen.

"Hi Michael

Sonic wanted to ask you a question about perception of stereo imaging by different listeners."

Q: Have you ever encountered two different listeners hearing different image locations when listening to the same system, from the same listening seat and same CD?

A: I'm not sure I have ever experienced two listeners hearing the same thing.

Sonic

An example: Listener A and B hear the same music thru the same gear and Listener A says "the guitar image is half left and about 2 feet behind the speaker plane" and Listener B says "no, I hear the guitar further to the right and right behind the speaker". Listener A: " the vocalist is quite forward of the speakers, projected into the room but a bit unfocussed". Listener B: "I hear the vocalist is quite focussed and centred between the speakers, not forward as you say."

So my question is whether different listeners perceive the soundfield differently locating images in different places?

mg

From early on I was always aware of vibrations (energy) more hypersensitive as compared to the people around me, so picking up on these types of things have always come naturally. In fact so much so that I had to learn that others didn't pickup on what I did naturally. HEA was, even from the beginning, a bit of a shock to me with it's pretense and paradigm creating. You see for me, I never expected each of us to hear the same. That goes both physically and emotionally. Our senses are designed uniquely suited to us as individuals not a cookie cutter mode. When we get to share in the same likeness it's fun but it's not identical.

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Sonic Voyager



Posts : 130
Join date : 2018-05-25

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 43 Icon_minitimeFri Jan 31, 2020 9:20 am


Greetings Michael

MG says:
A: I'm not sure I have ever experienced two listeners hearing the same thing.

Your reply undergirds (gives girth to) something Sonic has experienced. Here’s what happened:

I recently had two guests at my dwelling at different times and both heard my system.  Neither are audiophiles or care anything about the HEA. Sonic was requested to do a demo of my system for them by their host. Not knowing their musical tastes, Sonic played some acoustic jazz 16/44 FLACs for them.

Listener A – late 20s:
He was standing just ahead of the listening sofa when, after a few moments of music, he looked puzzled and asked Sonic “how come the cymbals and a drum is (playing) so far in front of your speaker?” He was pointing to a spot at least three feet ahead of the RH MG1.5QR panel.

He walked about a bit, sat down and then said something about the sound being very big.

Now I was puzzled. Sonic listened to the same track from the same spots he was hearing them, and all I heard was a conventional sound stage.  The sound was so-so big, and the cymbal and the drum were not projected forward of the speaker panel though there was girth and “bigness”.

Listener B – 70 yrs old
This person has vast experience with classical and live concert listening but is contented with a desktop computer system and mobile phone set up for music at home. He remarked “Your instruments are all round your room! How did you do this?” while pointing to some spots across the front half of the room.

Again this is not what I heard when Sonic listened.  There was a detailed soundstage across the front of the room though the expanding ambience of the music was forward and high up.

Sonic’s Puzzlement
The thing is in both these cases, I heard only a good but conventionally understood soundstage. Sonic did not hear any projected images or an immersive soundfield that these listeners hinted at.  

Over time, Sonic listened to those recordings again at several volume levels and I understand that I hear differently from them.  Given that Sonic has attended listening tests where High End Audiophiles argued fiercely on  stereo image location and the extent of depth “layering” with everyone involved having different opinions, this did not surprise me. I concluded that my ear-brain system does not resolve images forward of the speaker plane well. Rather I hear the sound imaging laterally more clearly. True, the tracks which the listeners heard had some sort of “immersive effect” which I hear as a kind of ambient field extending upwards to the ceiling and overhead.

With this Sonic got to the point where I could say to myself “OK, I can sort of hear this is filling out the music space above my head. I can understand why they thought it was big and immersive though I don’t quite interpret it like as such.”

Maybe I Got The Tune (or at least some of it)        
This may mean that my system (with Michael’s products) is already producing something of a dim reflection of the enveloping 3D soundfield that the great Tunees like TJ and Hiend001 achieve fully in their systems.  To be clear, Sonic is emphatically NOT saying my system is doing what Michael’s and the others’ low-mass tunable systems can do.  My equipment has blockage and limitations and my room is only partially treated the Michael green way. At best what I have is a shadow of Michael’s, TJ’s and Hiend001’s systems though Sonic has probably found that Michael’s methods, gear and The Tune has delivered more than I perceive.

A Caution
Michael once said he could tell from Tunees’ description of their sound and their system configuration if they have actually achieved the Tune or if they were just engaging in big talk.  Sonic will therefore leave the final assessment of the degree of my system’s Tune to Michael.

Sonic

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Michael Green
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Michael Green

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 43 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 15, 2020 1:20 pm

Hello TuneLand, and hello Sonic

I have been super busy lately trying to make my little space work for all I need to get done while shopping for more space. With the temperature hitting in the low 60s I'm like a race horse every day at the gate ready to take off for that short time of good weather (60 and above) and then as soon as it comes up and I get things moved outside it's time to bring everything back in again. Am I complaining? The answer would be yes, but life doesn't always make room for a good thing until we learn our lessons. I think the lesson for the people around me is "let him tune" meaning me.

One by one as people give themselves over to Low Mass Tuning they are leaving high end audio (HEA) for a better way. It's not a decision I, or anyone, can make for them and as such may take some Tunees a day to convert or years to deal with the conflict within their own personal hobby. Several listeners right now are going through that conversion waiting on me to produce their goods. Now that the season of warmer days are getting here "making the goods" is all that my mind has been rattling around about. Try doing that in a 500sq ft place LOL.

So if it appears that I'm not on the case trust me I'm more on the case than ever, but it takes a great deal of patience on my part to let nature do it's magic and for me to be a good steward of every minute I have as well as every inch I have to get the job done. I'm thankful for all of you being patient with me as well, because you are as much a part of me designing and making as I am. Again THANK YOU Tunees.

Smile Cool Smile

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Michael Green
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Michael Green

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Location : Vegas/Ohio/The Beach

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 43 Icon_minitimeYesterday at 10:15 pm

You know it's weird. When people stick their heads inside of my apartment here on the strip in Las Vegas (a block away) they look at me strangely and say "you live here?". It looks like a wood warehouse when you walk in and I'm sure smells like one as well. There's this narrow pathway in-between two, floor to ceiling, curing racks hosting currently over 150 pieces of wood in different stages of my voicing and another 100 waiting to be started on when they are ready (brought down to their lowest tone).

For me it's wild cause I can hear the difference as each piece gets moved around and how it affects the sound and soundstage, and even my personal vibe. Thank God I have a SAM directly behind my ears that helps me get past the sonic changes with most of the time minimal tuning to get things to at least a reference point.

The system is on 24/7 and from my writing room I can hear the wood going from a fresh sand and coat through the particular coat drying stage sound, a beautiful experience once you get use to how wood settles into it's fundamental and harmonic balance.

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