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jimmyblue

jimmyblue

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Join date : 2012-09-23

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Sep 23, 2012 9:43 pm

Hey MG

Stopping in to say hi!
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Sep 24, 2012 2:05 am

Jimmy,

Good to see you. For those of you who might want to buy his music visit http://dinnermusicforthegods.com/ and tell them Michael sent you.

welcome to TuneLand

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Sep 24, 2012 12:14 pm

Hi Guys

Have the first pics of the new DecoTunes.

Michael's System - Page 7 NewdecotuneFS

After a year of folks telling me they wanted a DecoTune that was closer to a typical RoomTune product and still have the style of the DecoTune I have now completed just that. The TuneART is now encased in a 4" deep tuned Poplar frame. The inside wood is voiced North West Fir and or Redwood. The base is Brazilian Pine and comes with spikes. The base is a 3 point design.

nice!!

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Drewster
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Sep 24, 2012 7:58 pm

Shweeeeet! cheers cheers


jocolor jocolor

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kimA

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Sep 30, 2012 1:27 am

Just joined the club and want to say hi to Jimmy, B, Bob, Froggy, Lady, MG and all the rest. It's a great time listening to the tunable systems in Las Vegas. I get to take in the music at one of the places every couple of weeks and am freaked out every time. There is nothing like it and makes listening to any other system boring by comparison.

I also love going to hear live music and have a great time with the gang to hear Jimmy's band and all the others that come through town.

Hope you all have a cool weekend.

Kim
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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Oct 01, 2012 5:34 pm

Hi kim, good to see you.

the latest

We're working on wood for a tunable room so some of my space is taken up(grrrr). I like having 3 listening areas at least but space is space and I have to make do. My listening for now is in the small room and overflow to the writing room. Since I turned my room long ways the layers of depth have opened up dramatically. The stage goes way in front of me and behind me, something you don't hear much about in the audiophile world, but do in the tune. With this depth though comes a challedge. I have tuned this room to me, my body and my height. To be honest I didn't even know there was a problem till Bob came over and said the sound stage was behind him and not in front. I sat down and it was all over with me in the middle of it, when he sat down he described it as a "car stereo" Laughing . After trying to sit like he does in my chair and pulling up my hair I can hear what he is talking about, but going back to my regular position in the chair the sound stage is full, lush and dynamic.

Last night I shifted the stage forward but it sounded too much like a video screen for me, so I'm trying to find a middle point but have to say that when I open up the back I'm at home. Still though for me there are two worlds, the world I like, and the world where I can make the music do any thing I want and anything someone else wants.

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Robert Harrison



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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeTue Oct 02, 2012 11:18 am

Hey, Mr. Green,

Michael's System - Page 7 8047367128_1c3eb37bfc
Artie Johnson by ozonerman, on Flickr

VERY INTERESTING...

There's not much talk about listening height. Is it really that critical?


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeThu Oct 11, 2012 3:00 am

Hi Robert

If you are using a lot of focusing tools like SAM's, Shutters and in my case big baffle boards in a small room it can make a huge difference. With my wide baffle board setup I'm pushing the limits in this room for sure, but it's fun and I get to create all sorts of soundstage worlds during my main listening times. I say main listening times because at my place even though I do listening during the day my late night listening is in the fun zone for me. I ussually take my morning listening break around 5am which means between 12-1am to 5am is when I really get into it. My place at this time has this hippie (no drugs) creative Vibe thing going on. It's like a party of 2, me and Pepper the audio dog.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSat Oct 13, 2012 4:52 pm

You guys get to have all the fun Exclamation

For the last day and night I've been dealing with server problems and haven't been able to get on TuneLand and here you guys are having a good time. What's up with that Laughing

One of the big hosting companies lost about half of their service last night and the rush was on to get servers back up. You should have seen the behind the scenes panic. However it looks like the problem is under control now. Makes you wonder how we ever made it without the internet and forums. I guess if it was going to happen though it was good timing for me cause here in Vegas we got hit with the last (hopefully) monsoon of the season (better be). It's a record year for wet and you guys know how much I dislike that. Fortunately the desert bounces back quick because the over all dryness here is so saturated.

I'm finding the posting lately to be very interesting and it reminds me of some of the older TuneLand days or even before Tuneland when there have been fever tuning times.

One of the things that I'm finding of interest is the ceiling control issues being talked about. I do so many tweaks that as you guys know I forget which ones I've spent time on and which ones I haven't. I'm realizing that ceiling tweaks is not on my talked enough about tweaks list. The ceiling controller has been around a long time (as long as the regular PZCs) but not many people wanted to put things up on their ceilings for some reason so it has fallen on the back burner. In my own listening though it has always been a tool. Not always a germinate one though. Reason I don't show it much is because if the rest of the room is fairly tuned it can make the soundstage so high that I have had people actually have to leave the room cause they are looking up at the extra soundstage and can't relate it to their systems stage. Personally I like looking up, side to side and behind me. With this (for me) the stage floating experience is complete.

Another issue though that I should have talked about more is the stages focus and filling in that can happen when tuning the ceiling with a controller or pillow or even well positioned series of Sound Shutters (even though the shutters do give a little different effect). I was telling Sonic by email that I use to take a PZC Ceiling Cloud with me to studios when I would help do mixing.

well time to browse tuneland

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSat Oct 20, 2012 2:34 am

New baffle boards cheers No not a new design Laughing I'm just happy I got my 102 baffle boards out of Brazilian pine almost ready to put on the speaker. Been at the remote workshop all week and now some of the wood is making it's way over here and I'm loving it.

OK, now lets see what you guys are up to.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Oct 29, 2012 4:31 pm

Hi Guys

Want to give a little pictorial update on my small room system.

Michael's System - Page 7 Mgsr1

A while back I did up a design that I was thinking about doing based on some playing around I did at the Ohio location years ago. I called it the "Big Smooth". Well this is what I should be calling the most recent 2-way 10" setup. As you may or may not know I'm thinking of making the 62, 82, and 102 all fit the same basic structure. The "Big Smooth" Laughing has been the proto vehicle to make this happen. With this design I have been able to change in and out drivers and internal dimensions along with interchanging many different proto tuning toys. It has been called the 62, 82 and the 102 depending on which configuration was being used. "Big" has shown me many things about baffle/space/transfer/crossover designing that I'm not sure I would have completely gotten from all the different cabinets I have and have had.

Breaking new ground in the industry has been my battle cry for many years. I have been looking at specs for over 35 years and the numbers have never added up. I have followed the recipes to the absolute and have found them to never work at the absolute. What I have found is my respect for nature's energy grows with each adventure. Thank God there are a few folks out there still building simple parts. If I were to rely on the audiophile standards of today I would never be able to achieve what I am doing now. Don't get me wrong there are challenges but when I stop and think about what I am hearing and ask why the answers are usually not too far off. They are in the nature on energy itself and my job is to uncover them. So numbers to me also take on new meaning and respect. If I hear something that is out of balance (numbers off) I can because of my training look at why instead of moving on to the next part. For example lets say I'm playing 2 drivers that say they are, one to drop to 2000hz, and two to rise to 3500hz. This tells me that we should have plenty of room for a successful "cross over" between the two. What it doesn't tell me is how they sound. Are they able to reproduce notes? And if not why? Are they a product that are built to show good only on a test but when they are put into practice we have to do a ton of crossover shaping to get them to not only match up but sound half way ok? The flip side of this is to trust simplicity. Use our ears to determine what types of materials sound the most like musical notes. And more importantly which materials sound the most like musical notes when they are combined with other musical sounding materials. Once you find these matches you only have to use common sense concerning the nature of drive units and how they should work. This comes with experience and experimentation.

So back to my 2000 down and 3500 up. Is this their true numbers? Of course not. This is their numbers only in the test conditions. If they were placed in a box that only let the frame of the drivers resonate to a certain stopping point before distorting than that is what they are rated at. I have taken the same driver and tested it in several different test boxes and had the test results come out different every time. The more resonate the box the lower and higher the test results go until the box reaches resonate feedback levels. Surprisingly resonate feedback can accrue in cabinets that are too hard just as easy as in cabinets that are too soft, but you don't hear anyone talk about this distortion. To be honest people who talk about back wave distortion are most of the time confusing it with resonate feedback cause by cabinets that are too hard. Objects are not limited to partial range energy. They respond according to their surroundings. Ever see a resonate cap on a tweeter? This takes a tweeter that may be rated at a low of 2500 and drop it down past 1300. Well let me give you an update that same tweeter goes much lower than that under the right conditions. Same for a woofer. Put it in a cabinet that is too hard and it will only go so high without breakup. Put it in a more resonate cabinet and watch it's response rise dramatically. Isn't that making the driver distort? Just the opposite if you believe in the law of vibration.

How do you know when your speakers are in vibration rightness?

One way to tell if your speakers or stereo is in vibratory rightness is when you can hear the music all round you, without stage holes. When your drivers are vibrating full range the room disappears and you can see deep inside of the recorded information. Things that were noise become distinctly clear and at the same time there is a flow to the sound without space holes. When full range is in phase you can feel the presence of audible signal of a recording with or without the sound being loud. Your room becomes audibly atmospheric. If you have a 2 way speaker you can stick your ear 5" from the tweeter and hear lows coming from it and 12" from the woofer and hear highs coming out of it. You should also not be able to hear where the drivers crossover. The simpler the design of the driver is the easier it is to get the driver to disappear.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Oct 29, 2012 5:07 pm

Referring to the post above, the "Big" (I like that name) reached vibratory oneness this weekend. It took some modding of both the tweeter and the woofer but once this was done and the baffles broke in a little these speakers fell into disappear world. Keep in mind my goal was to make these without a full fledge (inductor needed) cross-over. To my ears so far mission accomplished. The speakers are using only a cap and resistor. If you are able to get the materials to allow you to do this the purity is staggering. You can feel the drivers relaxing and ambient sounds that accompany voices and instruments are connected to their whole and not and after thought. The music has a sense of weight without sounding tubby or bloated. Yet there's a real bottom that is not shy but tonal. The highs? What highs? It's like there are no highs to muffle and no highs to hide from. They are pure and extended without drawing attention to themselves. And the midrange? Lately we have been talking about midrange and to my ears 10" midrange has a quality that is my favorite. There's a certain push of air that I love to listen to. It's a liquid quality but fast and full. You get it on good 3 way systems but only under 200Hz. It's that movement of warmth, but when you hear it in the midrange it's something special. The special 82 I made came very close to this but with the extra inches it's even more. You can hear the air go all the way up like your listening to the system with the blow dryer on. It's that much air, not that thin air either. We're talking thick air, like wind blowing and trees swaying air.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 10, 2012 6:28 am

I'm so mad at you guys Razz

Because of the recent posts I went in and started doing the fast tune with different feet, cones and stuff, and yuk No . Boy what a difference between doing the slow tweak and the fast fix. Even though the changes were big, that underlined harmonic magic can disappear in a second. Laughing About 2 tiny changes into the comparisons and I felt the magic flow go right out the door. The sound of the woofers fell completely apart as if they were not even in the cabinet anymore. The oneness is gone. I went ahead and did a bunch of different feet under the speakers but in no time the structure came unglued. It was like someone chopped the bass right out of the music and made it flap. The non-rounded edgy sound is unbearable. I will not do this again outside of my regular testing routine.

Laughing I'm not really mad, it just goes to show how easy it is to head in a direction based on an incomplete signal flow, and how easy it is for people who do the A/B thing to get lost because they loose 70% of the music content. Guys, I honestly don't know how people can listen without a tunable system.

The good news is, because I'm always thinking materials I few old tricks are running through my head Idea . And learning different combos is one of my favorite things to do.

It's all about vibration Exclamation

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2012 12:22 am

How much do you think about volume?

You know last night when I was playing around and the magic left I started thinking about volume again. With the system slightly out of tune the volume got really weird. In tune the volume didn't matter much high or low because there was a balance and flow, but out of tune no matter what volume I used the music seemed to be fighting itself. Today things have settled down and I'm finding parts to the music enjoyable again but even after a day of the unsettled sound I'm tempted to go in the room and fine the right musical volume as if something is not quite right and needs to be fixed. Here's the interesting part. All of the tweaking I did last night was on the feet of the speakers and moving one DecoTune around. I didn't touch or tweak any other part of the system, or did I? By moving the DecoTune and playing with the feet I disturbed the force. All day long today I can hear that the system is resettling. Not to get cosmic on you but I can tell that the energy in the room is not resting into the same patterns that it did when I let the system settle for so long. There's an immature sense to the sound and even though you can hear parts wanting to be better the essence of presence is not the same as when it rested into it's nice pattern of before. This has my mind jumping through all kinds of sonic hoops and memories of systems past. Have I rearranged particles to the point where the sound wave patterns need to reestablish themselves? Do these patterns have memory, or is every time they form a completely different formula? I would have to say that I have never had two rooms or systems with the exact same feel. Each has a personality is if it were living. Each has it's on presence of energy. This energy to me feels almost like a mood.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 11, 2012 4:16 am

OK, back to Earth

you guys are good cheers

Because of my little sidetrack yesterday I was forced to listen to a break in and in the mist heard a funny sound in my hall with the music flowing from my room to writing room tonight. It was a lifeless sound in the mid harmonics. I thought well I'll just wait a couple of days and it will settle in on the system, but being me I had to explore and found an interesting tone happening between the speakers and the outside of the room. A nice find! don't know if I'll use this tweak much in the long run but it's a blast to find hidden gems. As I made this tweak I could hear the speakers wanting more support so this opens up a door for a mid-band to low-end platform. I would have ran out tonight and cut the boards but we have had a temperature drop and I'm trying to keep some wood toasty warm inside. What this means though is that I found another way to get to the same place. Stuff like this is a big deal to me cause when I'm tuning in my systems or hearing someone talk about theirs I'm picturing different paths for them to go to get there. Drewster (Andy) will tell you that I agonize over this kind of stuff. It's like playing the game of tune. Any way I have some fun things for you guys to listen to if you have Dark Side Of The Moon and want to play tune that stage.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 12, 2012 6:38 am

This weekend certainly has been an interesting and fun one. I didn't really plan to head the direction I did, but as it turns out the sidetrack was not all that bad. I can tell you this, having one system running is a drag compared to 3 or more. Garp mentioned my store in Nashville and it brought back memories of some of the different audiophile systems I've had. It's one thing to have one setup where you keep changing things out, and an altogether different experience to run 3 to 12 or more systems. I remember taking people on my listening tour when they visited from out of town. You see while my store was going there was also a studio, 2 tunable rooms and 2 of my private places going. The store was Ok, but the guys who ran it were very stuck audiophile-ish guys and it was a drag for me to hang out there much. One thing about me is if it is the wrong chemistry, and one not based on harmony you can bet I won't be around long. It throws off my sense of balance big time. At that time it was not so funny but looking back it does make me chuckle at not only them but me. I did do the initial setups at the store but didn't tweak much after that. Where I did tweak was my private studio, warehouse and suite. If things would have been different I probably would have stayed in Nashville longer. Nashville for me is when I decided that going the high end audio system way was never going to do it for me. I'd be lying if I said there weren't things about the charm of it that was and is cool. But then I have these times like now where the romance of it is little more than that. I have to be real here and say when I have moments like I have had this weekend with even my small room system I would not be able to tell you if it was tube or solidstate, vinyl or cd, big or small. For me, when I get a system to a certain point and somewhat tuned it transcends my ability to picture a system at all. I'm dealing with 2 count them 2 power cables, 1 interconnect and 2 only 2 components. My small room is a terrible room when you think about it because of where the door is, but outside of fighting with that some and the tiny dimension in the one direction this system has the ability to do what ever I say. When I went in tonight and sat down I have to say I was shocked at the front to back presence I had. It's almost stupid good.

Since I got off track I figured what the heck lets make that power cable change I needed to make, so off the system went, out to the bench, cable made and soldered and back in the room. I thought well I'll come back and spy on it in a couple of days and just listen to it burnin from my writing room in the meantime. But Rachmaninoff was calling and after the first note I grabbed my chair for the ride. About 30 minutes into it I ran out to use the boys room and the hall followed me. As I came back in and sat down I thought "now that's why I have a simple system". Sitting in the chair there is a presence of front to back that has no starting and stopping point. There was no stage between the speakers cause the music didn't know they were there.

Afterward I put back on Pink Floyd and was thinking I'm living in two worlds again. One world occasionally pulls me back into the romance of flavoring from particular equipment and the other, there is no equipment. There's only signal and the balancing of it. When the system goes one way and I want it to go another I just voice it into being and the less power cords, interconnects and equipment I have the easier it is to do this. I can walk over to my speaker and change the sound of that drum to whatever I want. Even my speakers before had 2 tuning bolts, mass loading, the screws for the parts and the spikes. Far more than any other speaker, but these have four times as many places to voice.

Sorry guys, I almost slipped off the edge again but to me the high end audio approach just doesn't make sense. There's a part of me that loves to talk the talk and I would love to sit down and listen to it, but it's not home and hasn't been since I stepped into a world that I consider to be one more accurate and two much more flexible. Do you know how many times I have listened to the drums on track 3 of dark side of the moon just this weekend? It's staggering, even scary. I've listened to the air only, the skins, the middle, the rims, the shells, flavoring the shells, them going to their own space, flowing across the room into other space, tight, loose, holy smokes that's just the drums. For me, I can't imagine adding more equipment or equipment that has it's on thing to the point that would limit me from having the ability to take the journeys I take. I'm speaking for myself as an audiophile and truly can't picture going back to a less open way of doing things. Something can have the nicest flavor but after a while I hear the flavor and it starts to get under my skin. Whether it be the sound of vinyl or solidstate vs tubes or rolled off this way or that or a limited soundstage, after a while it eats away at me and I want to go somewhere else. Sometimes I'm cool with having music night and letting the system tell the music what to sound like but other times I want to dig in and explore all the parts of the recording. I want to hear someone say something about a song and on my system it may not be doing it as well as their so I go after that part or piece with a vengeance. I don't want to be right, I just want to have total freedom. A system that lets me do total analytical but turn around and smooth out. A system where I can feel the glow and turn around and hear the sticks drive me out of the room.

I guess all these years of me saying I'm not an audiophile should be rephrase. I am a true audiophile. I love listening with my lab coat on or in the kitchen of flavor, but I want it on the same system, and don't want to spend my life jumping through equipment hoops. Heck I don't even mind that, I just don't want to be stuck on a saturday night wishing I could be listening to a particular flavor and can only think about it. Like Sonic put up that article and I keep thinking if I was that poor interviewer thinking recordings were bad or had to limit myself to what sounds good or bad on my system, I'd shoot myself. I've mentioned before that I actually liked a life of moving around. It's true having a chance to hear all over the world has been a trip and coming back home to mimic it when ever I want is way cool.

Earlier I talked about having stores and I have to say that was a lot of fun and I would do it in a heart beat if people still bought that way and it made sense. But also I have to say that for me personally it would be really hard to actually live with one of those systems. I could get use to having one arm and no legs but what a difference it is to actually be able to have all four limbs. I have friends with missing limbs and they certainly do things beyond what I can do, but they will be the first to tell me how their perspective has changed. That's what I see when I look at high end audio and the way that it chose to go. But what's different my friends are whole, and I see these systems as being (for me) incomplete. Like right now. Pink Floyd's money just started playing and I can hear that the "change draw" just dropped in place whereas 2 hours ago it was still playing at a higher pitch because of the new cables. If I had a system with more components I never would have heard it drop so quick and so distinctly. The signal would have had to run through a lot more mechanically limited stuff and the change would have taken a lot longer and to boot not be as dramatic. The change would have been a lot more subtle where this was like hello was that the same song that played an hour ago.

Ran in and listened quick.

Now this change that just happened if someone would have been sitting in the room they would have thought I just went from solidstate to tube. Maybe hybrid. that's pretty nice and getting maybe a quarter of the way I wanted to go with that cable change I did earlier. By morning (wow it is morning) I'll be able to voice in the rest now.

well my ears are calling

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 14, 2012 12:12 am

OK, so I gabbed my head off on Sonics thread today. Even started boring myself Laughing .

https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t136p90-building-a-room-full-of-balanced-harmonics#2195

But you might find some of it interesting cause I get in to parts a little. I kinda like talking about vibratory code. It helps explain where I'm coming from, from my side of the fence. And my side is surrounded by one main word "ease". I want a system that is easy. You know sometimes I hear the comment "you mean I have to tune all this stuff" as if it were a lot of work. Well if your in this hobby, your tuning. Your either buying a new part every chance you get or your trying to figure out how to make a piece of music sound good. For me I already have faced the facts Laughing .

no two recordings sound the same
recorded music doesn't sound like live music
there is no absolute sound, absolutely
soundstages don't have walls
everyone hears differently
the best and the most costly are two different things
there are no black holes in recorded music
distortion is caused by over dampening as well as over vibrating
everything effects everything else

So, what is the truth about soundstage and vibration?

I know a lot of folks have made statements about soundstage sizes, and what they should sound like but I have never really (lets be real here) seen people listen quite the same. I think it's part of the charm, ego and involvement of the hobby that wants to achive either something unique or something by the book. The book for me suggest the exact same size as the recording room itself. I've spent enough time with microphones and mixers to know though that when I entered that control room I was in charge of the new world and what was going on in the actual recording area was not what was coming through the speakers in the control room. I heard the same thing between the control room and the mastering room and then finally yet another sound in the playback room. So as much as it would be interesting to watch home speakers fly out of their baskets I know that a lot of the dynamics for one are cut out of the equation from live to reality. What I find interesting though (always have always will) is that somehow someone somewhere made the standard soundstage size for people to judge by. This to me is very strange cause it should be obvious that there isn't such thing as a frontal soundstage of a certain size. In the studio you have it cause of the mixer and speaker placement, but at home it's whatever you make it. This is something that people long ago settled for and some how made into a sellable belief. With all the variables in stereo I can understand why this happened I just don't think people should hang their hat on it. Probably my 4th or 5th serious system was an AR turntable, Mac electronics and B&W 801 speakers. I narrowed it down to the Mac but in reality it was a few different combos. I wouldn't even call this system my first High End or audiophile system. An owner of a High End audio shop in Atlanta came in with his buddy from the symphony to my hang out at the time and said "man you ought to have an audio store" "your setup sounds as big as the symphony", little did we know right Laughing . He asked me how I came up with this huge soundstage? Honestly I didn't really know what he was talking about but went over to his store and saw more toys than I had ever seen. I went into all his rooms and then realized what he meant. everything in his store was more or less producing the same size audio field. it was really really cute but at that point I still didn't get it. These guys somewhere started magazines that were telling people this was the way it was, fasinating. So Ok, corner horns are not right, Binaural was not right, head phones are right. Stereo being treated as a crosstalk setup is right Question Ok, if you say so. Well the powers at be did and the audiophile world (without understanding how a room even worked) expected it as gospel. Here's this cute little soundstage and all of the recordings content. Sorry NOT SO Exclamation If we want to be critical here stereo is a fictitious fabricated word that was turned into a marketing plan of a way to sell a thing called a stereo. Look up the history yourselves and you can see how this went from a theory in the 50's to a product in the 60's. When RoomTune hit is the late 80's people were shocked that they could have a stage that went far bigger than the typical system and not have to use the crosstalk speaker setup. Again I have to say I was shocked that the reviewers didn't already know this. Larry A says to me "so why do we need to treat acoustics?". It wasn't really till after my first show that I sat down and realized what I had done. "The industry really didn't know that rooms are made of pressure zones" I thought. They think it's the colliding of waves. (that doesn't even sound technical) At first I wanted to raise my flag, but then after thinking about it keeping my mouth shut and letting them come up with their own reasons of why all of a sudden by treating and controlling a rooms other sources the colliding is more clear Laughing . It's not the colliding at all that makes stereo, it's the build up of pressure and this whole crosstalk thing was a way of figuring out how to cancel waves until someone came along and said control the other sources (pressure zones) in the room. I use to setup my systems outside at TuneVilla. The soundstages were huge Exclamation I mean far bigger than inside. There were a few systems outside but 3 main ones and all 3 of these projected full size instruments with huge, vaste, clear stages. the only thing I had in common with my inside systems were a back wall.

You guys ask me why I don't place my speakers right at my ears? Now you have it. I can place my speakers at my ears, at the wall, straight ahead, backwards any way I want (and do) and if I tune the room to adjust my pressure zones I get an image. Are you guys surprised Question I'm sure I gave enough hints for you to figure this out on your own but I never till just now told anyone straight up that I never did buy into the soundstage stereo thing. If someone wants a small stage have at it but if you have noticed since the late 80's early 90's more and more people have been letting their stages grow. One magazine long ago said "Michael created nearfield". Nearfield has always been around but never truly excepted till the mid 90's as being a choice. the first show I did all the speakers were against the back wall except for our room. As my guys went around and tuned the rooms for folks I told them to try to talk people into pulling out their speakers a little. Remember when this was going on? the two big objections the mags and audiophiles gave me was WAF "I can't pull my speakers out" and two "I can't take my grills off of my speakers cause they were built to be on for sound reasons". The stereo industry is so young in so many ways. They made all these guidelines back in the 60's and 70's and no one uses them any more. Why? because they were just a bunch of engineers who hadn't figured out how the thing worked yet.

Still can't quite let go?

Empty your room, put the grills back on your speakers, take out all the treatment, place your speakers close to the recommended place on your front wall, crisscross them and listen. if you look at the time period guide books this is what they tell you to do. My own ad people back in the day asked me can we make our drawings look like the guidelines? These were not my drawings Laughing . Look up all the reviewers pre RoomTune and post RoomTune. Tricky aren't we. The industry is like pulling teeth about mass and acoustics, but step by step they are slowly getting it. And the more they get it the more soundstages are going to take on more of a natural size.

To be honest, sometimes I forget how far behind High End audio is. You have companies like Audio Physics and many others that try to take people further in their thinking but still some of the mindsets are in the dark ages.

Guys your soundstages can be as big or small as you want them to be. As big as you know how to control and as vivid as you can stand them. As you learn how to get there, there is any where you get and like.

Have you seen the Chesky ads. Binaural recordings. I've been listening inside the soundstage before I knew what audiophile meant or was. As I stated earlier I was shocked at these cute little stages in my friends store. Who doesn't like toys? i like miniature, I also like bigger, I also like real size, heck I'd like over size if I could get it.

Take a string bass, play it in your room. Now tell me it's not filling the whole room with not only sound but energy. Now put on your typical audiophile stereo and play that same bass. On the audiophile system why is the bass so tiny? This is how we at my factory determined soundstage sizes. Now lets be fair. Lets put the bass in a really dampened room with really squeezed mics. Play it back on the audiophile system. Why is the bass so tiny now that you could set it on your living room shelf? BTW the bass test recording played on my outside systems was bigger than the actual bass. This tells me that the recording has the ability to play much bigger than the real thing if amplified, so why then on the High End setup was the bass so tiny? The recording didn't shrink it so what did? Not only do I think that dampened overbuilt equipment shink the sound, but I also think that the methods of listening that have been adopted are messed up.

You may not have an audiophile system that can play real size but in a few years (very few) playback systems will be playing real space. Why do you think surround sound was designed? And why do you think the Binaural thing is going to take off?

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 14, 2012 7:16 pm

For those following my small room system you noticed that I made a change on my power cable (a little voicing I wanted to do).

Michael's System - Page 7 Mg4

Because of this the whole system of course needs to burnin and settle into a harmonic balance. For this I've been letting the system sit and play while I do other things. Last night I could hear that the signal was settling into an upper pitch that only happened on a few notes while the rest of the notes were settling into a nice comfort zone. What do I mean by notes having a pitch? What I'm talking about is the upper and lower harmonics that surround the fundimentals of the note. Notes play by the fundamental frequency (cycle) that is influenced by surrounding notes and also their harmonics's structure. When looking at an instrument in the soundstage you can see and hear the notes as they make their sound. These musical notes are not just one frequency but more a frequency plus the support system. This is what gives timbre and tone to the sound and also defines size and halo. The more balanced the halo the closer you will get to a real size recording of the note and instrument. It's hard to think of a note as being a range of frequencies but it's important to size and tonal flavor. If you didn't have this your sound would be a bunch of dotes on a 2D screen looking stage. the more depth your system takes on the more you want the balance to be fair to the note. If the balance is tilted down you get a wooly sound, if the balance is up you get a brittle sound. As you increase the size of the stage is even more important to keep this balance in place if you want a vivid picture. We've been talking about stage size and presence well this is a good place to put this in. Your soundstage can be as big as you want if you keep the balance going. When you reach a soundstages full size you will get a sense that the room is completely gone and you can not see the sound walls at all. At this point you will feel and usually sense that you are right in the middle of the recording and although there is stuff infront of you the sides and rear are just as active.

After I heard this little tilt on some of the notes I went into my system and took a quick look. One of the power cables has decided to settle on the top of the components chassis. It was clear to me that this at least was part of the notes tilts. now might be a good time to play with voicing those 2 tiny cables.

out come some of the voicers

Michael's System - Page 7 Cg1

Not sure which one or if any I will use but after putting a Magic wood Brazilian pine combo under the hot and cold the over all sound already mellowed greatly. the music has now played around to the one set of notes that were tilted and they are smooth as silk so we will see if this also settle the second and last set of tilt on this CD. Also i need to take a look at how this is going to effect the over all. Your probably reading this saying does it ever end? Not sure I would ever want it to personally. I'm a recording explorer.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 18, 2012 12:13 am

Hi guys, I put this up in the Abbey Road Experience but want to put it here too.

"Haven't posted on the Abbey Road Experience in a while but after Drewsters last posting on the CD I thought I should visit the pages here.

Last week I went off on a side track that took me into Brian Eno land along with Bryan Ferry. I didn't realize it I took my system in a very weird direction and at the end of things had some of the stage sitting on my lap as well as all round my head. A fascinating journey especially when it started with Classical. Finally I wanted to come into what I call for my room target. There really is no target but for me this is always a fun starting place. Yes,I'm talking about Abbey Road. After some pretty big moves I shaped Abbey back into it's spacial oneness. What I didn't figure on though was what I had done the last week to the bass. The other recordings codes must have been shifted up cause the bass now for this recording is more than full. It is big and round and pregnant. If this was any other recording I would pull the plug, or even any one coming to listen to my system but for me in my own little private madhouse I am locked into Paul's bass. It almost sounds studio-ish it is so plump. I have recordings of real studio (pre dynamic cut) and almost never put them on unless the volume is turned down to nothing and still then keep an eye on sub-sonics. Paul's bass sounds very much like this but without any sub-sonic overload. it makes me wonder if before the mix if he had this sound going on in the studio. the definition is staggering and pin point but it is also so full that it makes me forget about the rest of the recording.

Yet another view of this magnificent work of art."

I guess not many people look at the hobby the same way I do because so many are trying to get something that someone said was the absolute. For me in my experiences I have fun looking at a recording from the recording itself out and not the equipment out. After doing this for so long I couldn't go back to one fixed sound. This recent listen to Abbey Road shows how I look at the hobby pretty clear I think. I have found that you don't need to be stuck viewing a soundstage like a postcard but the real fun of this hobby for me is to be able to see inside of all these different parts from different perspectives. To really do this though you need to make your system as flexible as posible. If you have not set your soundstage free yet or know how to get a soundstage this view of the hobby may be impossible. However I encourage everyone to take a go at this because it shows you a completely different edge to the hobby. Just like "Q" sound recordings are so different from typical stereo the day will come where you are going to have many choices of stereo (I'm not taking about DSP). I see that the recording natives are getting restless and are going for more expansive techniques, and also when you think of what we already have with stereo the engineering techniques are all over the map. I see this as a good thing if you have a system that can deal with it and it doesn't have you going crazy getting there.

But first you must be able to get the basics and be able to return to the basics at any time. This takes practice and know how. You have to be in control of your system and not it in control of you. I'm telling you though, you can do it and once you begin to master this side of the hobby you are going to have such a different view of recordings. One of the biggest revolutions you will have is that thousands of pieces of music were you thought the recording was crap is going to come to life and be as good as the finest of fine recordings. Fortunately there is something inside of recording that is locked in was the recording is made and even if it is stored less than perfect if you unlock the code you find this surprisingly good sound.

Years ago for a time I got into this thing where I was buying different remastering versions of the same recordings. On one fix tuned setup they all sounded different and I began to grade. while doing this I took some of the less noted versions and spent time trying to tune in their pluses. What I ended up with was finding some goldmines within the lesser of the bunch. Many times the lesser of the bunch became first on my list. The more I did this the more I was seeing that there is a recording code that needs to be unlocked just like the vibratory code. After this I went back to my recordings and grabbed ones that I knew did not add up in listening and behold it was mostly because I hadn't found their code before and unlocked it.

This added a whole new outlook for me in the hobby. The more simple I made my systems the more music they played and the better the sound got, and for me the more exploration I could do into the music.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 18, 2012 3:42 am

Have I ever talked about what I like and don't like?

This might explain some of the reasons I ended up going with equipment that many looking on would call it mid-fi at best. there's a few designs that we listen to and all of them have their own good and bad traits here is some of what I hear.

You know sadly the reason I have moved on from both tables and tubes is the stability and what I perceive as noise. I think I may be over sensitive to change to the point when ever I would hear changes associated with either one of these it hits my fix it button really hard. You would think me of all people wouldn't have this problem but the times I have tried to get back in to either one of the camps the small variances stuck out so much to that I couldn't break away from the sound of that vs the music.

With tables (never heard one that didn't) the sound changes so much from the outer to inner groves that to me it's like someone changing pitch through the song. I've talked to many people who have never noticed this but when I did spot checks for them they went Wow! Unless you pay close attention this will blow right past you, but if you are super sensitive to it you will hear it every time and may (like it did me) stick in your mind forever. And as weird as this sounds no matter how quiet and stable I still hear (feel) the rotation. You might think well michael you have not heard a table set up right. Well I wish this was the case but being to so many shows, homes, reviewers, table factories and the best setup guys around and still hearing it and many of these people hearing it with me I think it is something that I just have to deal with. This also why I stopped tape which I loved, and in some ways is still my favorite. I was always able to hear the turning. For me like I said it's even a feeling.

With tubes, I know I'm nuts and it's just me, but I hear a gas sound that drives me up a wall. You know how the current in electricity makes this funny oscillation noise? Well I hear it in the tubes and when the gas sound expands it I'm in hell. Tubes have this great atmospheric way about them and many of them know how to spread out the mid harmonics to sound like heaven. Another great quality (and many audiophiles don't like to talk about this) is tubes even if they don't measure to, have a unique roll off quality. An amp can measure flat way up through the highs but listening they roll. Engineers have their theories but I think it's as simple as thicker upper mid harmonics that give a warm full sound that thin out and sounds like it is a rolloff. for me if I didn't hear the (gas leak) sound and if they were more stable in changing current I'd be all over them, but can't seem to get past the gas. Sounds like a bad taco commercial but true.

With solid state it's solid state glare. I'm really surprised heavy solid state amplifiers ever got popular. the glare sounds like a piece of metal hitting concrete and you can hear it in a whole range of areas in the low to high scale. It doesn't show up necessarily in specs but you can sure hear it. Most manufactures try to mask this sound by putting strangely large amounts of dampened parts in and go off the deep end of shielding. the more of this they do the darker the amp sounds and the more the manufacturers and reviewers have to try to romanticize this sound. However you put these amps next to a tube amp and there is a huge difference. Bigger tube amps can also take on this dark sound. In a way it's kinda cool as if you are walking through this dark cave all mystical and dripping, but after the listening is done you wake up to real life and can see that this was just a version of the music that was choked. So Solid state faces 2 problems, glare and covered up glare.

Some are saying well what about digital? There is no such thing. Digital is a language and folks should have never confused the issue by calling electronics digital.

So which do I choose?

Because of the mechanical sounds I can't go with Tube or tables. Part of me would love to but I know by heading down that road so many times the sound of gas and the sound of rotating is always going to bug me.

So you said solid state glares. Yes I did but this is also a mechanical issue. lets say you remove all the mass from the parts that cause the glare, and lets say you make the rest of the glare dissipate by allowing the signal to dissolve into sinks. What, heat sinks? Yes kinda but not heat like your thinking. Heat as in energy (vibration). The glare is there because it is stuck in too much mass and can't fulfill a natural drain like tubes burning. Provide the right path of drain and the glare is gone. You also gain far more dynamic range. So you would go with a small plate amp? No, I would go with a solid state amp that has a lot of space for the parts to breathe and dissipate naturally. A small plate amp has the same problems as a bigger amp. if a plate amp was made on a big circuit board than this might be different. This is the main reason I'm not crazy about the small digital amps. They are still out of balance.

So it's not that you don't like high end it's that high end doesn't make anything that fits your ideal setup? Correct, If High end made light weight parts matched with the boards for dissipation, got rid of the extra shielding and were without enclosures, I'd be back in to high end. But let me say this. High End just means expensive parts. Obviously if you built products the way I just spelled out the price (if produced in quantity) could be very low. For me this is no problem but for the audiophile they first need to get past their fixation on classes and categories and get to the place where the sound works. High End audio has tried to fix the problem but the lower priced manufacturers have caught and past up the high end guys from what I'm hearing. but keep in mind with neither of these guys do I like the sound of the chassis and that makes the "finding the right sound" a lot more on a level playing field in my book, so much so that I'm comparing circuits against circuits a mechanics against mechanics. What I'm not doing is paying attention to the faceplate or the money spent. This is going to be tough for a lot of male ego but that's not for me to deal with, I'm after not listening to gas and a rotating mechanical pickup (my preference) but rather a well balanced low mass solid state setup that I can get close enough to the expanded tube sound, cause I need fat harmonics.

To sum it up. I like the tube table sound (table not so much any more) without the extra noise and limitations. One of the limitations being dynamic range. I have never heard the dynamic range out of tubes like I have low mass solid state (tuned). But the key word here is tuned, and I'm telling you tube will walk all over solid state if you don't get the tuning just right. If I didn't hear the gas sound and I got more dynamics this would be a different story.

For those who don't think they can tune the solid state (it's not that hard) a tube amp with something like the Magnavox is hot. For those who can tune the amp like what is in the Sherwood I would go this route.

Notice I didn't mention Preamps. I don't use one and will probably never use one on my serious system again. Plugging something into the jacks on a preamp with more than one component reduces the quality of the sound. If you have a preamp and don't notice this, your preamp is buffering the sound already. If you can go two components and tune it in to your liking it will out perform running the signal through an extra component and the electric will also be better. A lot of guys add tubes to the sound of their CD player cause of the nature of CD sound, but I have not found this problem with the magnazox. Other CD players may or may not tune up as well. I know some samsungs were pretty good. I think tubes and cd are a good mix but I prefer a little more clarity if I can get it out of 2 components vs 3. If I couldn't I would be going a simple tube pre, solid state setup but this to me is something I believe I have avoided.

This is where some may say a magnavox CD and a Sherwood receiver? Well I didn't plan it this way. If I could plant my Mercedes sticker on my Setup I would, but I have to be true to my sound first and formost and I have fallen in love with 2 component systems. I've tried a ton of signal power amp setups and am open to more, but one thing that I would have a hard time stepping back to would be that 3 component sound. That extra chassis and power supply really stops me in my tracks. but I want to say I understand completely the easier going sound thing of the buffer. my favorite component for many years was the preamp (look at my store ads). They are a fantastic flavoring tool, I have just lost my taste for this kind of flavor as compare to the sound of the room and the sound of tuning wood and transfer.

If you get the hang of it there is a sense of dynamic clarity that takes place with wood transfer tuning especially top tuning that electronic (buffer tuning) doesn't offer. It's one step closer to the cutting room floor. It's like your adding the scenes back in. Preamp tuning can be pleasant but for me 2 component tuning is like getting her lipstick on you while kissing.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 18, 2012 1:44 pm

I don't know what I did but my bass is so good right now I could scream. affraid

OK, I screamed.

I don't have it turned up much at all but I can put my hand on every piece of furniture or any wall in my house and they play the bass notes. Their not vibrating, their playing the bass notes. That my friends is a tuned low end. I haven't gone to bed, I'm in bass heaven. It happened yesterday and am scared to death to move anything Laughing . I keep thinking if I go in the room it's going to be horrible but I get myself right in there and the stage is as perfect as it has ever been in that little room.

I love all the parts to the range but as I have said before, if you get that bass right everything else lays on top of it effortlessly.

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PostSubject: Bass   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 18, 2012 2:11 pm

Miichael,

I heard the same thing last night while listening to the Eagles Long Road Out of Eden Cd. The Maggie has settled nicely atop an old cable ground and the bass seems to have grown. As the Maggie has settled my 45 tubed amp seem to be getting louder Looking forward to the arrival of the Maggie Mini Clamp.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 18, 2012 10:04 pm

Another great Cd!

The Maggie is a rare bird that does keep filling out (in all the right ways) as it burns.

Don't know if I have the tube/maggie combo right here but this is what I'm picturing in my mind.

Michael's System - Page 7 Mrm1

Like I said, I'm not sure if this is it but if so this is a pretty sweet looking music maker.

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PostSubject: MR SES System.   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 18, 2012 10:36 pm

Michael,

I do have a C4 preamp and an EM7 amp like the pictures you displayed, but I also have a MR 245.1 45 tube based amp. Roger is able to squeeze 4 watts out of the 245.1 vs 2.5 watts for the standard EM7 amp. The 245.1 has some neat features like adjustable feedback as well a unique method for setting the power tube bias. The 245.1 amp has a led light in the middle of the amp with two leds lights on either side of the middle led. You set the bias by matching the led light intensity for the right and left channels to the middle led. Of all the standard triode tubes (300b, 2A3, and 45 or 245), I prefer the 45 tube as it sounds more balanced top to bottom if you can live with 4 watts or less. The 245.1 is my amp of choice for working with the Maggie. My C4 preamp has some unique features as well. It has a 6922 tube driven by a 6CG7 tube and two OC2 regulator tubes. It also has built in tone controls that can be turned off. I rarely use the tone controls unless a recording is too hot in the treble which can be adjusted down

The reason none of this products are offered currently is because Roger lost the wood craftsman that made all of these amp cases. He has been unable to find a suitable replacement craftsman, so these products are no longer offered.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 7 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 19, 2012 8:16 am

I have to find a picture somewhere and I'll post it. Since the economy woodworkers have been difficult to find. For me I have to spend 5 times as much time with them to get what I'm hunting for. Along the way though I'm learning some tricks of my own. I'm getting my chops down on saw speeds and types and other cools stuff. The speed of a saw and the blade makes a big difference in the sound. However with your Canopy top it's all chiseled (no electronic tools). With it being a small piece I went ahead a did it by hand like I do mine. Took forever but was fun. The poplar piece I think is gorgeous. Would love to see a MR made out of this. Wood has really gone up, and to get good wood is out of this world. I'm so fortunate I have managed good sources for the types I like. There's a big supply house that I stumbled across a few months ago that carry almost all the stuff I need. Problem is they won't let me sort, so I have to buy a bunch, bring it home, go through it and bring back 2/3 of it.

Does the 245.1 have a different name to goggle image it by?

The C4 and EM7 are hot looking I must say.

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