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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri May 24, 2013 5:59 pm

MG system update.

Thought I was set for the summer, but my system started out performing my room. One thing I didn't want to have to do is have any listening hassles during my summer stay, but the more I listened the more I realized I was not going to have things my way without modding the room and I don't think they would have liked that so well Rolling Eyes

I began my search for a different spot close by and by chance found some condos right across the street that have a pretty cool setup. I snaged one Laughing and this weekend am moving in. Swimming season is in full swing so I'm a happy camper cause found out my new place has 24/7 swimming yeah Exclamation Cool . So my summer adventures have a little twist but I think I'll be a little more "in tune".

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go shopping for a listening chair. Not a moment to waste as I see all you guys are having a fun with your setups.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun May 26, 2013 8:54 pm

And picked up a beauty.

Michael's System - Page 10 M6

This beats up on the one I was using, and as always with these you can take on and off the pillows depending on your mood. When I went to pick it up I was pleasantly surprised that it was a little bigger than the pic I saw in the ad. Makes it nice for straight up listening or slouching. With the back pillow gone I can (all 6'3" of me) lean back and not lose much.

I will need to make another set of stands but am listening to the tall ones for now.

Going from carpet to tile was a shock to the ears, but I'm already thinking about how to mod things to fit the materials.

This is something that I think we should always take a look at. We assume that systems have similar sounds when we move them in and out of different environments but this could not be further from the truth. What tools I use in one may change completely in the next room. For this reason I stress starting basic and build your way up from that basic. I've already spotted a couple of things that the last room was masking. Now that I hear them the little RCA SA155 is on the hot seat. There's an odd (high frequency) rolled off character that moved from my last room to this one. Interesting Exclamation

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon May 27, 2013 7:21 pm

Hi Guys

I'm spending time letting my place tell me what to do next. Been a lot of fun making little changes and then listening to them settle. For sure going too fast in setup gets a lot of folks lost, and lost quickly Laughing . But for me as much as I want to get to music, I enjoy listening to the process and it teaches me new stuff everytime.

BTW doing posting here if any wants to follow https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t171-platform-systems-vs-rack-systems

Sometimes talking about stuff in a way that translates burns a ton of brain cells Laughing and I hope I can one day get all this out so people can make sense out of their audio systems. Boy when I think of all the money most throw down the drain to only have to turn around and start coming back to simple. It's cool if folks only go part way but I couldn't imagine myself doing this and being happy with my hobby.

So in usual fashion for me it's a baby step, take everything in, setup trying not to miss anything that I have to come back to a change later.

Living in a kiln does have it's advantages. Today was 90 at 10 percent, beautiful for playing.


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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeTue May 28, 2013 9:21 pm

Tapping my toes waiting on the arrival of my Sherwood my current setup is telling me stories about things going on in the room. I'm in that boo stage that sonic talks about, however mine is only coming from 3 of the 6 walls, "my floor, ceiling and left wall".

Michael's System - Page 10 Mg5

My right wall has it's own thing going on that will be fun to play with.

After listening for the first half of day my ears started telling me to find the safe spot in the room. This would be where my ears can take advantage of the drywall behind my head and also pull the speakers into the area that wasn't so chopped up. As soon as my right speaker started to feel the wall between the kitchen door and the opening to the writing room it said "thank you". Not that I'm ready to go crazy yet till the 4105 gets here but I did want to get a little frontal engery controlled a little and the basic tunes up.

MG, is that an upsidedown speaker I see? No your sitting upsidedown Laughing . Actually at this height and with this tweeter I like the sound better.

Plus, I'm testing the wood of some platforms I'm making. What Question One of the things that I don't show a lot is how I test things. I do it through listening to parts and pieces as I go. I make stuff out of the extra wood and stick it in a system to see how they do.

like

Michael's System - Page 10 Mg6

See the tops and bottoms to the stand, look familar? It should cause it's the wood from Hiend001's and GARP's platforms. I steal samples along the way to tell me how the voicing is going. Also notice the spikes. They are the screws I use on rooms and platforms. The speaker has them upward and the bottoms downward.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeWed May 29, 2013 6:20 pm

Just had some fun.

For those following me, I'm staying at some condos by the Las Vegas strip for the summer (maybe longer). Yesterday my HVAC went out so the air guy came by to take a look. As a result 2 of the owners stopped by with a unit and to check on me.

Bob (one of the condo owners) took a look at the speakers and electronics and said "what have we here". I started to tell him what was going on and his mind turned on overdrive I could see. "so these are speakers" he asked "no, acoustical products" I said. He was amazed, and so I told him to sit down for a minute and listen. Helping him I asked "where are the singers" he answers with a confused look Laughing

After listening a minute he said "I heard the whole band" still looking at the RoomTune as speakers. "you transported me to inside the studio"

That was fun and when he left I sat down for minute myself to hear what he heard, since I'm really only just getting started. Laughing don't know if it has broken in this far or if the AC box sitting there with AC still in it did this but the stage is huge with the sound wrapping around me. Now I have to ask them to leave the box here after they install the unit Laughing to see if it did some of this. I should have the maintenance guys over more often fixing stuff.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeWed May 29, 2013 8:55 pm

While in Chicago I tweak on some of the parts and pieces while the kids sleep upstairs.

This gives me a chance to spy on the progression of some of the toys.

here's the beginning of my Sherwood tweaking that is in route to me now

Michael's System - Page 10 M11

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri May 31, 2013 6:28 am

Hi Guys

I've started a new thing in Audio Chat. Join me and discuss general topics.

Cool

https://tuneland.forumotion.com/f8-staying-in-tune-audio-chat

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 01, 2013 2:58 am

Hi Guys

I would also like to invite you to follow me this weekend on https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t181-a-weekend-of-ziggy-3-days-of-settling . I think you'll find this really interesting and something you can do yourselves.

Sometimes when we start talking about stuff it makes me very curious and it also makes me want to review my tracks to see if I'm actually able to recreate parts of the tune that I always talk about as being real or important.

I do want to also say that at any time that I may sound like "oh no you didn't" it's never because I'm wanting to be an audio bully or pushy. It's truly done out of an honest reaction that takes me by surprise. I not only enjoy being a teacher here but also a student. And most of all I love the adventurous spirit in all of you.

Watching you experience the tune is like drinking water.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 05, 2013 10:01 pm

Ok, I know I need to get caught up on posts and emails Laughing

I had a sidetrack and it threw me into one of those studied modes (you know how those go). They turn your ears around till you figure it out.

I've been listening to the RCA sa 155, and honestly took it to a place that should not have happened you would think. The bass was so big by the time I was done that it came within inches of throwing everything into over load. Then came my Sherwood 4105 and as I unpacked it saw it was damaged affraid . I was like nooooooo No No . Evidently someone decided they wanted to take a look at her during the shipping chain and by the time it got to me the back panel was dented and part of the faceplate was laying in the box. Why wouldn't UPS notify me of this I have no idea, but it was not a good thing at all. I was so primed to do the comparison in an ordery fashion too. I put the unit on and at first was happy at how the staging was, but the hours that followed started revealing a disaster.

The frequecy balance was way off and as it started to settle the tone started shifting up (a sure sign of blockage). By the time last night was over I had to cover my ears as I walked around my place. I went from beautiful bass to "where's the bass", and what's worse was the dreaded phasy shift, that is like kryptonite to my ears. I suffered through it all morning though as part of my usual learning (never move too fast), and came to the conclusion that the back cover must go by by. After it was removed I hopped in my truck and made a trip to my lumber yard. While there I started tapping on wood hunting for the tonal answer. Will I find it remains to be seen, but I did find this wonderful piece of redwood that was tone perfect so I made the purchase and will start my tuning prep tonight. Lucky me cause it was one piece out of 40 or so and none of the other had that thing going on. I think I should own my own lumber yard don't you? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 06, 2013 3:31 am

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Idea Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


Hello scratch father of the tune Laughing . What was I thinking Question Well I wasn't Rolling Eyes

I did a couple of things around the house and thought well I'll tune tomorrow. Couldn't even answer emails, I was so perplexed. How can an amp that I thought I knew get derailed by this other one that I thought was good, but still had questions about it? Did I miss the call? So I say, well I haven't slept in a couple of days let me relax and take a nap. So I lay down and look at this box that the sherwood came in. I need to throw this away cause I don't have room for it. I'm thinking the packing material would be nice to keep but I really don't have the space...space scratch wait a minute.....space Idea that's it Exclamation the one thing I did when hooking up the Sherwood was move it about 4" closer to the front wall so the power cable would work. Suspect Oh, you have to be kidding me. I moved the platform out of the center node. It was now sharing the front pressure zone and not the middle, much bigger one.

I quickly converted the shipping box into a pressure box and put it at the edge of the center pressure zone. Kaboom Exclamation Kapow Exclamation It's a tile floor dumbie. Of course that pressure zone is gonna be weird. It needs something to vibrate. As soon as I put the box down I could feel it. Sat down quick and put on 5 days (Bowie). There it was and not only that I found a ton of music to play with, a ton. I could have gone in a direction that took me completely away from where I should have been. Jump tuning is of the devil. I'm back on the path and my beat up Sherwood is making sound again. Still have to fix it a little but I think we're out of danger captain.

Captain's log

Don't jump tune, let the system tell you what's going on. Remember your biggest component host 80 percent of the sound. You might think your components sound a cartain way but only the room can tell you that. There is no such thing as a straight up A/B test.

As my friend Robert Harrison would say "Space, the final frontier....."

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 06, 2013 4:32 am

Nice work!
Could you take some time and explain how to make a pressure box and properly use it? I remember attempting to make one in the past to find pressure zones in the room but not knowing how to use it to my advantage. I think this simple tool could help me locate my equipment and that maybe a good foundation to build from.

Just happen to have a shipping box the maggie came in.
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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 07, 2013 1:20 am

I must pull away from my listening and tell you guys what's happening here, and I will. Just have to try to get my mind around the "float" enough to explain it.





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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 07, 2013 8:15 am

The Float

Hi Guys

I'm going to try to describe this the best I can while it's happening so bear with me.

The float is something that I've never actually heard outside of one of my own systems. I've heard it close I thought but then when it happens like the night before last and I realize that close is not "float". In a really good setup you can hear lots of things floating in and out of the stage and the stage is completely full with no empty space (black holes) . Tonal balance is nice and the music is engaging. Saying this, you would think this would be the beginning and the end on audio, until you hear the float.

Honestly I don't even know what I did, and have never heard it happen on such a fast and basic setup like this before. I usually have to spend a lot of time getting to know every inch of the room and play with the balance of transfer to get close, and even then it can be a chore or maybe not happen at all because the room won't let it. I use to think that the float would only happen in a tunable room where I could get to every screw , but Vegas has proven me wrong twice now. Is it the dry air? I don't know. And now that I have it in front of me I realize that my place where I had the workshop was close a couple of times but the true float didn't happen.

The float is more than 3D listening! 3D is a great place to be and lots of fun can happen with this but when you are in the float some really unusual things happen. I need to invite Drewster here to try to explain cause he has heard it in the Vegas Towers. I'm sure that inside of the float that there are different flavors but they would be some what hard to describe unless you lived there like when I had my TR's.

dimensions

All dimensions of the room have completely disappeared, is the first thing that I want to say about the float. I can not see the end to any stage as if to meassure how big the stage is.

Hang on got to listen a second

Ok, when a sound happens, lets say a cymbal in the right front, you not only hear it get hit and the size of it, but you also see the size of the room it was played in and you can feel the pressure it was stuck with, and the sense of it happens in the stage but also flows through you to way behind you as if you were not even there. The pressure in the room is almost erie as if you are not even sitting but more caught up in a wave of energy. Sounds weird I know but just trying to give it to you blow by blow.

weight

Another part is the weight of all the sounds. There's an incredable sense of weight of each and every sound. Kinda like looking at a sliced peach and then looking at it in a syrup. Each sound has itself distinctively and it's own syrup around it. This is major in the float and separates it from 3D listening. Everything, and I mean everything has not only a weight to the pressure of it but that pressure is changing as the sound appears and then decays.

the decays

Every sound happening in the recording has it's own decay and it is very clear and usually decays a lot longer than you think it would, but when something stops, it's on a dime without the slightest over hang (room effect). It's like the pressure zones are completely in sinc with it other and no one pressure zone is telling another one what to do. This goes back to that feeling of pressure I mentioned. Every thing loads and disapates at the same rate (weird). I dare not touch a thing Laughing . The decays also have an artifical effects in them from the equipment and you can hear with percision the differents between the two. It's thing listening to a bunch of extremely well defined ghosts and they are all confined within the over all effects as well. Then these effects are inside of this huge unending space, yet as I said there are no over hangs even though this room is live, which is pretty interesting. How can a room be live yet things stop on a dime when listening? HMMM. I can only say that it most be because the room is loading and decaying with all the the pressure zone in movement with each other in perfect timing.

instrument spacing

Not only is the decay perfect and beautiful to watch but everything is in it's own space and nothing sits ontop of anything else. There is a weird sense of independence with the instruments but yet they are all sharing the same space but yet each has their own within each others space. And everything has a back to it. It's like a vacuum has gone around the back of every instrument and made it just as visual as the front part. This is another thing that while listening almost makes you feel dizzy, or maybe I should say the opposite of dizzy cause it's quite refreshing and you almost don't want to breathe. Sitting there I kinda feel like I'm in a swimming pool with sound not only in front of me but I'm in it, and I don't me in it like I'm wearing headphones either I mean in it like the water is something I can feel pressing against me and I'm "floating" and so is the sound.

tonal balance

There is no tonal balance at all cause you completely forget about it as being a factor. It's so natural that each instrument and every part of the production has it's own tonality, but you have to think hard to make heads or tails of the tonal balance cause it sound exactly like the instrument or effect that it is. Even the air has a very neutral feel to it. Yes, you are in a recording world and can feel the flavor of being inside this space. I've had to walk in and out of this room for two days now just to experience walking in and out of the recorded space, and the recorded space definately has it's own tonal balance when you get inside of it's space that is different from the space outside of the space. Almost like someone put up a curtain. Even though the space outside is musical I feel like there is an invisable world in there and I'm on the outside of this tonal space. Sounds good outside of it but it is different.

Quick tonal test

I wanted to try something real fast but have to be honest was afraid I was going to mess something up Laughing I took the back plate from the amp that I took off of the back of the Sherwood and brought it into the room and set it on the floor. Sat down and listened and the whole recording raised in pitch affraid . Took it out again right away and things went back to easy going. WOW Exclamation These pressure zones must really be talking to each other. I mean the whole space chained in tonal balance, like even the air jumped up into my ears. That was freaky, felt like the TuneVilla rooms.

Speakers

There are no speakers. The rooms pressure zones have completely taken over the sound of the room and what the recording is doing. I absolutely feel like I am very close to the recordings info cause of the extreme clearty and there is not even the slightest hint that there are speakers in the room. In fact sitting there I loose all sense of stereo or the cues that come with it. I'm right in the music and it is acting like this perfectly even and balance, maybe I should say uniform state of being. You couldn't tell the speakers tonal balance if your life depended on it. They are just not an issue, and this surprises me a little cause I was and am needed to do some work on these. How does this info get through a pair of speakers and into the room this pure? I again would have to answer that with the room has at least gotten enough info and the pressures are so even that the speakers are at least given enough to reveal this much. That's pretty remarkable realy cause at this moment you could easiely put these speakers up against anything and you would pick these. Actually I think I'm still freaked out a little over placing that back plate in the room cause of the difference. Let me also say that I did have a drill and plastic bag also sitting in there next to the chair and now that it is gone I can hear the difference from my writting room. This is getting too freaky clown

Pace

The musics pace is interesting. Instead of the pace being fast or slow feeling each instrument has its own pace and vibe inside of an overall vibe and pace. Much different from when a system is good but not in float mode. Everything is like it is playing a solo but yet you are seeing all of everything. Not hidden secret blurs to figure out. And each song is very distinct from the song before. You feel like you were on a ride, then sigh, then next amusement attraction begins. It doesn't even feel like the songs are necessarily do in the same studio with the exception that you can hear when they use the same recording techniques. I can almost be blind folded and tell you which songs were done by themselves or in the same recording session. I can easily sense the recording flavor change. Would love to see the studio notes to see how the timing was. Talking about pace, plucking and speed of percussion is BTW remarkable. Everything has it's own pace inside of the recording and you can hear the masterminds behind the creations.

Production

I can hear the production (remastering) like I was doing it myself. You can hear very certainly the over all mastering equipment and how it is separate from the original recording almost like you were a mixer. I can hear faders at work and effects and all the fades, fasinating to be honest and something that is usually just blended in. In the float I can see and hear the exact movement on every instrument or recorded sound. makes it incredable when focusing in on any particular part. It very much feels like I'm in the studio while they are making decisions and that the control room is in my space but this is more expansive. this part is really cool cause you can hear the sound within the sound part of the production, meaning the master tapes are separate sounding from the remastering tools. So much for transpartent sounding equipment Laughing

Dynamics

Well this is perhaps one of the biggest shockers. The dynamic range is so big that it is completely effortless. I know that live is far more than recorded, but the dynamics of the float is totally believable. Drums and everything percussive are not the only percusion instruments being played. Everything sounds like it is something being plucked or strumed or picked or there. And "there" (direct plugged) is an understatement, somethings are jumping off the carts from start to finish almost like a scary movie scene at times if you didn't know the recording, and even if you do your shocked to hear just how dynamic a certain sound is. Things like hearing the pick on the acoustics is like heaven cause you can hear every little part of the guitar including when the player moves just slightly.
 

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 07, 2013 6:15 pm


Wow! That sounds incredible! bounce Do you think you'll be able to keep it for very long? I might have to come out to Vegas...

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 08, 2013 1:26 am

Hi Bill

Well here's what I think after listening this session. I started to put on a few CDs to see if it would hold up, and it didn't, but what it did do is show me some things about the system that I can play with after I get back from your place this time.

At this time the clearity is still there and I'm happy with the info part but I have spotted two or three things that need to be done, but I'm not going nuts to find them cause I have a feeling that I might be able to take this to a place where I can make easy adjustments to go in and out of the float. I wish I could sneek a line from the fusebox to my listeing area but no doubt I would get caught in the process. That won't stop me from trying to get the most out the electric the way it is but this will ultimatly hold me back a little.

My first goal however is to find the essense of the 3 main parts while I have a basis to work from. Meaning now I know the Sherwood can produce the float, but it needs to produce it and do the couple of things I want on top of what it is now doing. The Maggie is a given but I want to find it's magic and be able to tune it in fast. The third and the part that surprises me is the mini mod.

When my new soldering piece gets here I will slowly start tweaking some stuff and see if I get lost and what to do to find my way back. It only begins here and there is much to study about each part.

Ok, got to go listen!

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 08, 2013 6:57 am

Well in my last post it sounded like I fell out of the float, and it did, but why? Parts and pieces were very good but I started to wonder what had happened, maybe a shift in the power grid......or......what could it be? O well, I'll play with the center pressure zone and learn what it is all about.

This was pretty exciting and the weird part was the pressure box ended up within 1/2" of where I originally threw it on the floor to hear, but there is bigger news. While doing test I brought in a piece of cardboard to try a couple of things. This 2'X2' box top was leaning in my writting room against the backside of the shelving seen in the pics of my room. Incase you haven't been following my writing/resting room and listening room open into each other, and there are other parts to this that I should draw up now. Anyway when I brought this box top into the room something weird happen. No matter where I put it the affect was pretty big, but nothing I wanted so I took it a threw it into the writing room. I sat down and hit play and everything was out of whack. It took me all of about two seconds to realize what was going on Laughing and after one placement of the box top the listening room jumped into the float again.

Some brilliant designer wrote once "everything affects everything else" Laughing wonder who that was? Most importantly wonder if he can heed his own words of wisdom. This is turning into more fun than I had thought I would be into by now. I feel like I'm way ahead of the tuning schedule I set for myself. Now I need to do that drawing to show you how this small place is tied together and what is going on. One thing for sure, if I have gotten this far already how far will this little place go, and while here how will it control my living space? It would be a shame (kidding of course) if all I was able to do here is listen, write, eat, clean myself and sleep. Now the trick is going to be learning this space and how it is interlinked. For those who have visited TuneLand Nashville or Vegas before you saw how everything in my space was strategically place. Of course one of these places was 3200 sq feet and the other 1400. I've never done this where the total space was near this small. I'll need to get a tape out and see just how small but it's compacted. Kinda like living in a squeezed manhattan place, but for what I'm doing I'm digging it. But, there is zero storage to screw up, especially if I need to keep the shelving empty on top and hollow inside for the bass trapping needs. I will have to keep on my toes for sure every time something comes in or out of this place.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 08, 2013 12:48 pm

Here's a drawing that shows the entire acoustical space

Michael's System - Page 10 Mg7

There are some things to take note of if your looking at what's been happening here as compared to another place. Most important is pay attention to the materials used and the environment. Where your comparing setups. It's true some things are a given but the condition of your signals (electrical, acoustical, mechanical) have a formula that is unique to your listening place. For example the sound of tile in dry air are two big factors in the sound that I'm getting in this place.

Do I want you to run out and get tile floor? No please don't. I would trade this with a wood floor with sub-flooring underneath it in a heartbeat, but this is what I have in this particular summer hangout (who knows maybe longer) and I am having to work around certain charactors that are not the easiest to do. For those of you who have hard walls, I hear you. Something that a hard surface does is throw a bunch of info back into the room that can be distorted because the surface was not able to vibrate in a full range manor. One of the problems that come with this are thin sounds (lack of harmonic support) and until you find your areas that can be used to trap these sounds and convert them (if you lucky) you are going to be fighting that surface to try to change the sound of the corperate energy coming off of it. I'm fortunate that this is happening on only two of the surfaces but believe me I hear and am acting fast to deal with this. First thing is to know the sound of these kinds of surfaces and knowing how they respond to on coming waves.

Here's what I need you to hear. I use the word convert because this is a major problem with our hobby. Energy doesn't just go away, it conforms to a different state of energy. You need to grab this and hang on to it cause until you get this your never going to understand the way materials control the sound of your room. It's very rare that acoustical dampening as we know it can make your room whole from a reproducing side of things. When you absorb a wave and there is not something there for that wave to resonant and create the pressure needed in your room for you to hear you might as well kiss that wave and the associated waves goodbye, cause your never going to hear it. Follow me on this ok. We've all heard this but maybe have never had it explained. You know how when your listening to a system and hear something new you never heard before? You look to see if it's the same recording and is, but you could swear this is the first time you ever heard that instrument or sound in the playback. Well, your not crazy. What has happened is the fundamental and corresponding harmonics never found enough support somewhere in your system to develop. Yes, absolutely yes, I'm saying a whole instrument or effect can and is missing from the music playback. It's there on the recording but you can't hear it cause it has been corrupted to the point of not being able to convert into a wave form. This seems mythical yet we have all heard it.

This is actually not as tough to get your arms around as you think or people are making it. Here's what you need to plant in your minds and keep it there. Energy needs a host to exist. If energy is only a language (formula) but has no means of being executed it will never form. In other words when you are playing your recordings all this info needs to find vibrating conduits that can actually produce (reproduce) this signal with it's language intact for you to hear it. This is not just in recordings but a part of acoustics in general or any other energy form. It's very likely that you are sitting there right now listening to your system and it is only playing a fraction of the actual recorded information. Some things you may hear clear enough, and some things fuzzy, yet other things kinda sound like noise, but there is even yet more that is not to the point of forming a noise as it is missing that much of the formula to make it into a cohesive combo of waves that can be formed into usable info (signal, pressure). It's like taking an eraser and wiping out a whole instrument from this picture. Let me say yet again this is why you need to keep things very simple. The more complicated your system is the more info is probably laying on the cutting floor. You hear this all the time when you visit peoples systems but maybe didn't know that this was what was actually happening, or maybe you did. Grab your CD head to your friends house or local show or store and listen for yourself. Whole parts of the music are missing. How much depends on how complicated the recording is. If you have a ton going on in a recording that can add up to a lot of signatures that need to find a home.

Still not getting it or able to justify this in your mind. Let me use your computer as a testing ground.

Lets say you are trying to produce a piece of music (we'll call it mg8) and your computer is the language conduit. What happens if you leave part of the info out or distort it? Will you see the message?

lets try it Michael's System - Page 10 Mg8,jpg

Didn't work did it?

Now let's do the exact same info only make the , a . as is needed to make the translation correct.

Michael's System - Page 10 Mg8

All I did was take http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/mg8,jpg and correct it to http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/mg8.jpg but as you can see because the info was incorrect you got a X in a box instead of the message. Go ahead click on the above links. One you won't see the piece of music and the other done correctly you will.

Sound is a lot more forgiving in the info department but if you remove enough of the content you will either get a noise that you can't make out, a black hole or empty space, or the instrument will be missing in the stage entirly.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 09, 2013 11:54 am

If you read Sonics thread you see where last night I took a bit of a side track. Fortunately the system has settled pretty well with the new transformer screw tweak. A few minutes ago I was jamming and was wondering if I keep moving forward or wrap things up for my trip. I kinda hate to do so much and then get a weird sound right before I leave. It's much cooler to leave after a really killer session. But what can I expect from a new room and electrical system. Plus I've falling into the "float" a couple of times and that's kinda still freaking me out a little. This is something that takes a lot of work and brain power and I usually keep a lot of this stuff to myself but for some reason I've been into sharing the step by step part of what I do. I think the repeating of the process keeps me on my toes and allows me to find hidden treasures to share. Ask people who know me and they'll say I'm always covered in sawdust and finish. Voicing has been a major part of my life for many years. Getting that perfect tonality and space is where it is at.

Things like Magic wood have become a main part of the transfer world for me and I'm always coming up with combos of flavor. The other day I came across a gem of a piece of wood that I just moments ago got to put into the system. Actually it's the wood I used underneath the Sherwood when the float happened, but I didn't want to give credit to something without doing a little more voicing on it. The pieces underneath were sanded with 2 types of paper then 3 blocks were placed 2 in the front and 1 in the back. I had nothing to compare so I took another piece and did a phase 1 sanding and finish on it. About 45 minutes ago I replaced the back one and my jaw is still on the floor Shocked . This did way more than I thought it was going to. I don't like jumping to conclussions, but this is of great interest. If I find a big brother to the Magic Wood I will be out of my mind. You see the Magic wood will only let you go so thick before running into problems. It's a powerful sounding wood when cured. This means though that there's a hole in the transfer choices for those hunting for blocks. Blocks are cool cause of their size, but with most wood pieces this size you really need them to be longer for the tone to happen. With this one I treated it differently than I usually do thinking that I can get the finish way down deep inside of it. Then really dry out the pores (fibers). So not to give away a secret by being too detailed the ends are treated different from the grain. The results at least on this piece worked perfectly.

My string instruments have come completely to life which is hard to get the harmonics to sound this liquid cause anything with a string has a really long sustain life and the equipment parts usually come out of tune way before the intrument is finished. As a result violins, cellos, guitars, and pianos don't quite sound as potent as they should. I only have the one piece done to this level but I placed it right where the speaker outputs are and the sound change was heavenly. Got to go listen Laughing

One thing that I can guarantee I'm doing though before I catch that plane is make sure I can get more of this Very Happy . If this is a one time wood I'll .......

Actually it probably means digging through lots of bunks to find the pieces that have that magic. Wow, a big brother to magic wood would be great news.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 10, 2013 6:14 am

design report


I'll be doing more of these tomorrow and letting them cure while I'm gone but I put the second tuning block on moments ago and I'm loving it. Looks like I'll be digging through my jazz and classical cause the resolution is right down my alley. And the body is filling more from the middle out. Years ago I was playing with similar wood but for some reason didn't think to finish and cure it this way. I liked the way it sounded but it was too much so I never went with bigger pieces. And I remember the grain was a little different. I'm going to meet with them tomorrow again and see exactly where they are getting this from. This sounds like a harvest of wood I could do a lot with.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeTue Jun 11, 2013 3:19 am

I leave tomorrow for Chicago so did some rush listening today. Disaster Laughing the different recording codes stuck out like sore thumbs. There wasn't one time when I felt like a recording was in sinc. That's what I get for going from a well settled setup where each recording was given time to settle to jump listening. The 2 hard surfaces have made themselves known and I'm looking forward to getting back and seeing how much of this I can make disappear through tuning my electric and cables.

One thing I do want to point out though. I'm not starting off with a typical audiophile stage. I jumped right into a (un float size) 9 foot deep stage with another 2 feet in front of the speakers and when you go past about 4 to 5 foot deep in a stage you will see things leap out as problems because their not masked as much. Each recording I put on today (with the live ones being the toughest and electronic music) I heard this 20 minutes into the record space change as if the recording wanted to settle. Very fun to listen to but I'm sure unnerving for many who don't know what this is. Also the volume trick after about 20 minutes is a good idea (but it takes another 5 to settle).

On the live recordings when the volume was not right the crowd would stick around the speakers, but set correctly faded into the stage. This was kinda cool because I could use the crowd as my guide to set the volume. It's also fun to be doing these things and talking about them cause I'm not sure if I ever have and maybe this will be a help to those while they listen. I do this stuff so automatic that it's just the natural part of listening for me.

Keep in mind that I haven't been up to the office to pick up extra acoustical stuff so I'm not doing any acoustical tweaks yet past the one I did with the box. The only tweaking I have done are the blocks. Many times I was tempted to jump in but I tied my hands and feet. My tweak has been settling and what a tweak it is. I have gone back through some of the music I did today and this time let it play through a little and then started it again. Major change the second time through. Pink Floyd Pulse for example was horrible from a cold start but after the settling in place and it was hard to get out of the chair. there were about 3 CDs though that had such a difficult code for this setup that I could tell settling was not going to instantly fix this. These recordings somehow would not let go of the sound of the hard surfaces and you could hear them dog out and part of the recording was not going to become real. Other recordings however after a period of time seemed to accept the hard surfaces with the exception of an occasional glare that told you a renegade frequency was going to need to be tamed in the room. My mind would start thinking about sonic's system and what he must go through when these frequencies would hit. They can be ear piercing. The tough part to this is they are recording dependant and if you want to get rid of them in every recording and not worry about them than sometimes your going to short change a recording from revealing all. My plan to solve this will be to add wood in the right places and do it very carefully.

One thing for sure is, this is a blast if you have your head on straight and realize how a system works. If I were not knowledgeable however I would be tempted to lose some of this long hair. For me it's like "wow, that was cool". I'm like in science class dissecting that frog (how cruel was that BTW).

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 14, 2013 12:47 pm

I really can't wait to get home and do some writting. Do you know what I'm realizing after all these years? Many of the things that I take for granted are not things that others think about when setting up or tuning in their systems. Or even consider when reviewing the industry. Like for example the speaker room ear connection. It's nuts when you think that most in audio (meaning the industry) look at the system as being the source amp speaker only. They don't understand that if you don't make the room produce the sound passing through the components correctly you will never hear what the components are doing.

How can you be a designer if you don't know acoustics?

The first thing I want to know when people make comments about sound or audio tech talk is, how is their room? If their room is not in tune with the system they really are only taking a guess at what the part, piece or component sounds like.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 20, 2013 11:29 am

Hi Guys

Wanted to show what was done at Drewsters and also here Kinda.

Michael's System - Page 10 M13

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 21, 2013 5:07 am

Since I opened up my sound electronicaly I decided maybe I should make the room sound as big as I can, so I turned the system so I can use the energy coming from my writing area.

Michael's System - Page 10 Mg7b

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 21, 2013 1:44 pm

After a night of settling the room feels like I'm sitting in the middle of a field listening to music. The stage is pretty big and "The Wall" is all over the place and very liquid sounding. I think I'll be whipping out some of the classical later.

There's so much energy back in the now front area it will be interesting getting to use it.

I haven't decided where to put my equipment yet but because there is so little it is flexible. I love these little two piece setups. It allows me to make the room my system and by setuping the room up in different ways I'm learning what one part of the room is doing as opposed to the other parts. This is big for me as I believe in making "the room" the system and not being stuck by any variable. So many times (this is very important) we try to work around components to make our sound but many times it's all right there in our room waiting to talk to us, but we don't give the room enough credit for the sound so we set things up facing one direction many times and miss a very cool, maybe even best sounding, pressure zone to sit in.

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PostSubject: Re: Michael's System   Michael's System - Page 10 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 22, 2013 12:45 pm

Today's adventure is a continuing of porting the front wall plus converting the room's over to the sound of wood.

Because of the tile floor and one block wall I want to bring more of the sound of wood into the space. Must be careful though not to decrease the pressure and lose staging space. When doing voicing I keep my eye on the volume control at all times. TT already brought up room volume and I will be responding to how this works, but as I'm doing this same thing in my room I will probably do most of the posting on this here, jumping to his and other threads if needed.

When tuning it's very important that we keep the room volume on the plus side and not dip to the negative. When we do dip below the negative of a room's natural volume level music content disappears quick and sadly we may not notice this right away. I like having my room boost to between 1 and 3 db up. 3 may sound extreme but when you think about the size of the normal room this is about the right amount of amplification for distortion free sound. Keep in mind that your room needs to be part of the amplifying stage. This is something many audiophiles have never been taught but it's very important.

The easy way to keep this in your mind while tuning is, anything before the amp stage is line and anything after the amp stage is amplification. If you decrease amplification after the amp stage you will absolutely lose info. Amping up a system doesn't and shouldn't stop at the speaker. Again the speaker creates the wave but the room supplies and delivers it. Always important to keep this in your mind. If you need to picture the room as a big speaker that's fine, just don't think of the room as something you need to remove from the chain cause that's where tons get screwed up.

Also don't try to get your head out of whack when it comes to stereo. A lot of times engineers talk about stereo as if they only had one ear. Your not going to mess up the stereo effect (just the opposite) when you use your room as the speaker. You absolutely have right and left plus everything else when you get your room involved in the chain just as having two speakers. This is one of the beauties and fun of tuning your room.

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