Michael's System

Hi Guys

Starting to post on the new speaker line.

https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t259-designing-for-excellence-the-mandolin

enjoy

can you believe we're finally going to production

thank you thank you thank you Harold

Well the Mandolins are in my room, and inside of their first day I'm thinking maybe they should have been call Grand Piano because they are not small sounding.

There are a few things that need to be decided on, but general design is sound and a good starting place for the final lap. I'll get batteries for my camera and give a pictoral.

The Viola (below) is also approaching the final stages.



We're playing with different wood combos, and narrowing it down to our favorites. What your looking at is a Music Ply Birch with Alder seams. We're doing this and a hybrid. The hybrid has the top, mid and bass plate in hardwood, the front back and sides Music Ply, and tuning bar in a special Hard Maple we found. I usually don't use Mable but this find and treatment has fantasic transfer. I'm listening to it inside of the Brazilian Pine Mandolins in my room now.

This is a step toward speakers being musical instruments that is so full of tone that I have to get my ears around a whole new set of boundaries, or should I say lack of. The instruments become so real that I'm seeing inner harmonics that don't relate to what speakers do. I'm reaching yet another level of mid harmonics that make the girth of the instruments playing take on their own bodies and thickness within their own level of richness. Over the next month or two, I hope to be taken to a place I haven't, or at least haven't in a production way.

very fun times

in the breaking in of the "mandolin" speakers I'm just getting to the point where I can do my regular reviewing of recordings.

The Neville Brothers are far more than the pop Aaron hits, which are pretty darn good on their own. One of the favs in Neville cd's is "Yellow Moon".

They called them New Wave, they called them "Pop", I didn't buy that and called them straight up "Rock & Roll". On a system that doesn't do "The Cars" justice I can see where someone would call the debut Pop, but if you have a rockin system The Cars smash every bit of power rock.

Take it easy mg You would think that I would be playing everything simple with the new speakers, thought it was 4 days old but it's only three. Hmmm, but for the last day they have been screaming "girth". Nuts right? You take a new speaker and go from "selling england" to "the cars" to Joe Walsh "look what I did" disc#1, but it seems that's what the doctor has ordered so far.



Bass & kick drums on the James Gang cuts are slammin, like someone was hitting me in the chest with the kick. I did a little block tuning on the player and the speakers followed right along.

I don't like anything in only three days, so I refuse to say I like these well... we'll see.

Had to unplug things for 3 days to do some voicing, about killed me I didn't have the other systems going and the silence was like prison

The Mandolins have moved on to



And next onto some jazz and classical.

It's interesting and fun to design speakers for me, cause there's no guideline to follow when you do speakers from the cabinet to the parts, instead of the parts to the cabinet. Normally a designer is thinking about the drivers and crossover point, whereas I'm thinking about the tonality of the whole. It for me has not to do with the tested specs as much as the natural resonant tone that happens when drivers meet wood meets space. I spend my time working on the blend between the parts involved. This means goodbye scopes and hello ears.

Since I only use a cap and a resistor it requires a lot of listening and knowing the other parts of the system as well as the speakers.



At this point in the build I'm paying close attention to how much I want the tweeter in the game. I believe in allowing the woofer do as much as it possibly can and letting the cabinet be a natural roll off, so I don't like chokes in my design. What I have found in doing this is that the woofer if not damped will extend in range in both directions. Back in the day of the Chameleon I thought differently, but this was before I took a listen to what parts do, and what parts are needed and should be used for.

The D-27 goes down to 700hz but do I want the tweeter to be in that very important range? So what I do is start lower then begin to raise that cap till I heard the blend happen. Then I find the right attenuation. Letting the cabinet do the work I have found brings me much closer to the musical fundamentals and harmonics.

With this design philosophy one of the first things noticed is the dynamic range increase. Second is the tonal development of the space and instruments. When the balanced is acheived in the speaker this is when I know it will work the next phase of amplification, and the most important phase, the room.

I do believe in flavors, and feel that the speaker should have them, much like an acoustical instrument, but I also believe that this should happen as natural as possible.

Well, I thought I was going to move on . The mandolin is handling "a night at the opera" so well, I'm not moving on just yet. First I heard it on the left side, the cap opened up, or maybe the tweeter then about 20 minutes later the right side opened up, a cool experience.

Now the tops of the drum skins are worth another listen through, or 5

That was pretty nice and made me want to hear some string girth. On goes

Beethoven has really come to life

I'm familar with Louis Lane as he is one of the two main conductors of the atlanta symphony when I was there.

This morning I tried to match the volume of the recording to what I was use to when I would get a chance to come down front about 8 rows back or just behind the first aisle. The Mandolins nailed it and gave a true tonal representation of the girth and body of each instrument. Organic is the word that comes to mind. Have I reached another level in my designing? I think if I'm able to continue in this direction the answer is yes.

I hope I get to listen to the hybrid speakers as well soon. Tapping on them in the woodshop was pretty exciting. Having the 3 models in my place is going to be like christmas X 3 for this boy.

Yes, I have been in the listening room with the Mandolin

My dry climate has opened up doors for me that continue to take me by surprise while designing. I have been anti-crossover parts for a period now going back over 20 years of removing parts, however when I am in design mode it makes me sit up and take notice of what each of these parts do to the sound.

First I have to think about the testing of drivers in a sterile environment vs being in a cabinet and room that sets them free. These are two completely different set of guidelines. Next, what really happens to that driver (tweeter or woofer) once we add electronic parts to the mix. Thank goodness there are a few simple drivers being produced cause the thought of trying to do what I am with the modern difficult drivers makes my head (ears) spin.

How could any designer miss the obvious, let alone an entire industry? And, my thinking is also telling me why are these people messing with "slopes"? Again obviously if you have a cabinet that is choking the driver you are going to get distortion at the extremes of their movement, but why? The answer is found in the acoustical instrument. Designed correctly there isn't distortion at the end of the response or so little that in fades into a slight pitch raise or dip at the end. But this only happens (with a good design) until the next motion (movement of note creation) is made. I'm hearing the exact same reaction with the designing going on here. At the end of the day these drivers are going to stimulate the pressure. Their going to say what they want to no matter what they are being told, and frequency response is only that (a measured volume response). It isn't the "sound", and only tells part of the story. Tonality and textures are a totally different animal. Their the part of these pressure makers that make the sound pretty to listen to or un-natural.

more coming up, got to fill my ears

It always nice to come back to the common sense approach to distortion as opposed to the traditional audiophile notion of distortion found on other forums.

Some hobbyists can not get past the hunkered down understanding of how their systems are only playing a part of the signal.

Oh well ... The mandolins 'sound' quite savory

What a great name .. The name invokes such sonic imagery.

I know, I know, my pictures will make anything look ugly but these actually are quite beautiful, just a little banged up by the guy doing all these voicing things to them

thought I would take some quick pics while the paper tweeters are in them



If you look at the last pic you can get a little taste of the color flavor of the wood, not quite black, more of a deep varying mix of black and honey brown depending on the lighting. Sorry about all the fingerprints, these poor things have been extremely tortured.

Tonight I'm listening to the Mandolins with only a cap, hello, only a cap

This evening and morning have been piano time on the Mandolin speakers.



here's a review

"Review

A few years ago, I went down to the Village Vanguard to check out pianist Fred Hersch. Sitting next to me in the crowded club was one of today's most popular jazz singers - also a pianist. After the first set, said jazz celeb commented that Hersch was in a different league and that she really needed to take some lessons from him. What strikes us all in Hersch's playing is his perfect blend of technique, style, and sensitivity. His version of Billy Strayhorn's "Daydream," from Hersch's 1996 Strayhorn-tribute album, Passion Flower, illustrates just how good a trio and string orchestra (arranged and orchestrated by Hersch and conducted by Eric Stern) can sound. A lot of players (and arrangers) could use lessons from Hersch.
--- JAZZIZ Magazine Copyright © 2000, Milor Entertainment, Inc. -- From Jazziz"

In his CD Works For Me, guitarist John Scofield returns to the jazz heartland, focusing on straight-ahead, four-to-the-bar swing in the company of Kenny Garrett, Brad Mehldau, Christian McBride and Billy Higgins--all masters of their respective trades. Scofield, one of the most distinctive and influential jazz guitarists since John McLaughlin, has always had a penchant for word-play titles (most of them in fact devised by his wife) and "Works For Me" is very probably a coded reference to the fact that in this album he favours the music closest to his heart. It's not all heads-down bebop though: there are chastened ballads and episodes of the funk vamping which has become Scofield's latterday signature; however, on this occasion even potentially banal riffing is spiced with harmonic surprise and enlivened by Sco's distinguished rhythm section. Scofield the instrumentalist also seems to enjoy a renascence, stepping up to creative levels he hasn't always reached in recent years. Such early triumphs as Rough House, Who's Who and Still Warm are run close, if not entirely recaptured. --Mark Gilbert


During his illustrious career, John Scofield has cleverly kept abreast of trends, lending his serpentine blues-'n'-jazz riffs to volcanic fusion blowouts, grits and gravy funk, even whisper-soft big-band projects. His chameleon approach has shone on such albums as Bump, his seminal fusion recordings Still Warm and Blue Matter, and his bop band workouts with Joe Lovano and Bill Stewart.

At his core, Sco is a jazz master, and we long to hear him interact with other giants of the genre. Works for Me answers this expectation generously. What's so compelling about hearing Sco with Billy Higgins, Kenny Garrett, Brad Mehldau, and Christian McBride is the accumulation of the fiery solos each man plays and the mood of each collective note. Higgins is the balloon the band rides here, and Mehldau has never sounded better. Garrett's dense logic is the perfect foil for Sco's charred leads; the intimately crafted songs find each man going deep with each improv. The band's overall crystalline perfection is so relaxing that it's almost mystical. And for all that, they trade fours and eights, a rarity in the pressured world of studio recording. This is an exceptional album that tells its tales with great depth, detail, color, humor, and passion. --Ken Micallef

And now mg's review



Modern Jazz is really not modern without a few names, John Scofield is one of them. This recording in particular is so well blended if you didn't know who John was you could guess he was a sax, bass, or drum player the way each instrument is featured and each playing off of the others with equal respect. This to me is a sign of truly great composition, especially in Jazz. The dynamics of this recording moves you from place to place and instrument to instrument as if you were having the perfect conversation where no one is talking over anyone else to be heard. It's like looking at a Picasso, "which part will I take in" knowing it isn't going anywhere and there's plenty of time before the gallery closes.

John has given us so much, and this is one of his finest moments as Jazz player/director.

Soon it will be "let the ping pong games begin", one of my favorite parts to designing. System 2 will have the "Viola" speakers.

Diz................

WOW!

a little bit a

From Mark I go to Joe.

Interesting night of listening that started here,



went to here,



ended up here

All music is fun, but there's something about the picture that early to mid rock did and does that once opened up takes me to this next level.

Up on Stereophile I read sometimes where a person looks at rock as a lower level of production and my eyes begin to and I think "how bad can their system be". I understand that it may not be the taste that suits someone but to say the production is shotty is more than odd.

These recordings were made back in the day when studios were not shinny pieces of selling "time", but when everything was an experiment of genius making soundstages that were never done before.

the progression of this era is like no other before



I think we live in some of the greatest times of recording history. What a generation, to be a part of the recordings most creative time span.

I'm in the middle or at least the beginning of speaker heaven. This is quite the journey and my respect for curing wood as well as voicing is gaining every day.

I believe it was an email from Toledo who asked "when do I know when a speaker is ready". The easiest answer for me would have to be "when it stops being a speaker".

There is a melting (maybe melding) that happens in audio designing for me and this last span of time has gotten me closer to that place again. It's a place where the product melts into the music and the music structures themselves take over. It would certainly be hard for me to describe in audiophile terms cause it goes so much deeper and I can't really think of audiophile type terms to describe the integration between the music moving through something as if the object wasn't there. It's like the speaker or and room becomes the music and what was once a product or object moves out of the way or is overtaken so the signal can display it's energy.

When something is not ready it hangs on to that last little bit of fight. That tiny piece of the lack of being natural, and then if and when it passes over to purity everything disappears into a sea of oscillation and harmonic rightness and pace. Tone and rhythmic movement of the smallist part becomes as big as the whole, as if the whole of the recording was depending on that little part or piece to make it complete. Recordings themselves are our teacher, and here's the thing. Good or bad or somewhere inbetween every recording has one thing in common, space.

Sometimes, and I'm noticing this a lot on other forums, people don't get the importance of space. I can not stress enough how important to your sound space is. Space is what unlocks the music and any part of the recording that we talk about as a description of the sound is only a part of the recording. The recording itself is captured and replayed space. No matter if electronic or room space there are no such things as holes number one, and number two the recording is omnidirectional.

After months of back and forths between the new FUNAI and older Magnavox version I've come to my conclusions.

These are two similar but different sounding players. The way to decide which one is the way to go is how much you want to tweak of course but also what base line you wish to start from in getting to your sound. After this amount of time I have chosen the older version with the bigger circuit board as my personal favorite.

Both players give incredible amounts of detail and information, with the newer version the winner by a nose, but when looking for that relaxed space that feels more analog than digital the older version takes the cake. I'm not saying the original is sloopy by any means as it smokes all the high end players I have ever listened to in that department, but the newer version gives that even more instant detail. At the same time if a CD is played that has that digital lift to it the newer FUNAI with the smaller bottom board and bigger top board shows the tilt more until you level this out with careful tuning. The lazy (mg) mans version (the 2100 or 2300 version) gives more of that relaxed harmonic structure at the top of the scale and this to my ears makes for easier listening and all but removes that "when is it going to settle" feeling.

I can see me wanting to change players depending on systems and music but the overall easy on this old mans ears version has to be the winner if I was on that island only able to choose one. Listening to the FUNAI 100 is one of those on top of the detail type of experiences that allows you to see around the corner of the musics inner detailed structures. However you have to be able to tune your system in other areas if your wanting that warmth. I have been working on a custom mini platform for that model but it's slow going because I keep getting pulled back to the instant warmth of the DVD2100 that made me choose it as my favorite player from the first time I discovered it.

I'm fairly convinced that the warmth is coming from the larger circuit board being used as much as anything. There's a little more body with the older Magnavox version that comes up shy for me in the FUNAI 100. I'm not sure if I would call it tube-y but maybe as I said more body, completed notes in the fatness category.

So for now I choose the DVD2100 or 2300 versions or even the original I think it was Magnavox DP100 version of this player over the FUNAI 100. Both really fantastic units but there comes a time where ease of listening wins me over compared to the exacto-knife version of sound, plus with tuning it's only a matter of a simple turn to get all the detail any listener could ever hope for. For myself it's easier to have body and shape in the detail than to have the detail trying to achieve the body.

just my 2 cents about two great players

Michael,

I purchased three of the Magnavox 2300 units fearing that I would be replacing one a year. My original 2300 is going strong so I have kept the spares in reserve for the future. Within the same period that I have used the 2300, other more expensive cd units needed laser replacements. These Maggies are world beaters for price and performance.

I have not had the need to acquire a FUNAI and based on your review, it would not suit my listening.
The Maggie sound signature is as you have described and got me back into the tune. My tube amp is more linear and neutral sounding with a taste of warmth yet provides the detail you are finding when combined with a digital amp or power source. So, I believe when comparing the Maggie to the FUNAI, its like a small flying insect moving across your soundstage passing gas. The Maggie presents the detail of gas big and round while the FUNAI appears to present gas as silent but deadly.