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Michael Green
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeWed Oct 27, 2010 2:23 pm

Hi Sonic

Remarkable isn't it! The things that alter space in our rooms can make a surprising difference. I use to have a wonderful lamp back in my place at the Towers. Wish I had it here.

Nice chair!!

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Bill333

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeThu Oct 28, 2010 10:18 am

Hi Michael,

Can you describe the lamp you were using at the towers? I will definitely need one for the room, and I could start shopping for it now. What did it look like and how did its design and materials impact the sound?

Thanks,

Bill
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeThu Oct 28, 2010 11:59 am


Hi Michael

Sonic seconds Bill333's request -- yes, describe the lamp. I could do with one too. Was looking thru the Ikea catalog today.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeThu Oct 28, 2010 3:14 pm

Hi Guys

I'll try to find it for you but in this pic you can barely see it behind the speaker on the floor.

Sonic's System - Page 14 Show4

and another pic on the floor

Sonic's System - Page 14 Deluxttunesbridgescanopies

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 29, 2010 8:55 am

It isn't difficult to construct a lamp out of parts, so I had been thinking of asking Michael to make a stand lamp out of treated 2x4 and a 12" square of treated ply as a base. Then I got to thinking, why do I need the stand at all? The most minimal lamp would be a hanging lamp which is nothing more than a shade and a cord going up to the ceiling. So I shopped around on the net and saw these:

Akida Hanging Lamp

Accordian Hanging Light

Ellipse Hanging Lamp

Or I could just find any lamp shade I liked made predominantly of wood, paper or cloth and then get the hardware to turn it into a hanging lamp. I think one made of cloth would be the most acoustically transparent. What are your thoughts, Michael?
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PostSubject: Lamplight   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 29, 2010 11:44 am

Hi Bill333

Here's what my system looks like with my lamp. This is the level of illumination I like, only need to get it higher. Tomorrow Sonic's going to lengthen the cable so I can put the lamp on top of my bookcase/wall for more even lighting of the room so I can read with less eye strain.



Sonic's System - Page 14 SonicLamplight102910



Sonic
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Robert Harrison



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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeFri Oct 29, 2010 5:56 pm

And to think I was going to jokingly ask Mr. Green if that lamp in the tunable room was itself tunable. Now you guys are all seriously thinking of the same thing.

But, as has been said before, "everything affects everything."
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PostSubject: W A Mozart -- Notturno for four Orchestras   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSat Oct 30, 2010 12:50 pm

Hi Robert

Well yes everything is tuneable but it also depends on your starting point. In my case Sonic had a metal lamp with a ringy conical light diffuser so the change to a earthenware and cloth lamp made a difference. I got the lamp higher to the top of bookcase and this illuminated the room just right and though I am sure that playing with the shade fabric could yield some improvements this is not how obsessive Sonic wants to become.

This does prove a point made I am told by some audiophiles that we should keep the amount of metal (particularly resonating fixtures) to a minimum in the listening room.

There is so much to do. I think there a pressure zone trapped under my table by my listening chair...?

But what made a good difference (notice Sonic did not say "big", "eye-popping", "jaw-dropping" etc...which are really quite meaningless and often over-dramatizations) was when I mounted the front Shutters properly and installed blades that were cherry finished by Michael.

Michael sent me some unfinished Shutter blades (balsa) with my order of Shutters and I been using them to test the best positions which when once found I would install a heavy, M Green finished item. In the meantime I finished the balsa Shutters myself using some DIY store spray on stuff. They didn't sound too bad and I could locate the neatest placements BUT when I used the Mr Green finished blades the amount of girth and improved transients and pressure waves (that push/impact from brass and horns) was much better.

Just proves that when Michael says that finishing of wood is ultra important he is not making sales talk. He is right absolutely!

My system is sounding pretty neat now.

That is until Sonic found a very stiff test record for any system's spatial imaging. What's it? It is Mozart's Notturno in D for 4 orchestras (Christopher Hogwood, l'Oiseau Lyre) -- this is a piece with 4 small orchestras arranged in a rhombus. The main orchestra is nearest the front of the soundstage, the Left and Right orchestras are far Left and Right of the soundstage and there is one orchestra behind the front one. The three accompanying orchestras are referred to by the Maestro as Echo 1, 2 and 3.

Handel did something like this with his Organ concertos using an "echo mini orchestra" off to one side called a ripieno or something.

Mozart takes passages and plays echo games between the four ensembles. In most systems the Echo orchestras will just sound echoey. Actually if they were reproduced as they were recorded they should sound way outside the sides and front walls of the listening room.

Afraid what while Sonic's system does better than other systems reproducing where the Echo Orchs are, they are still in my room or at best just hardly out of it....and the ensemble directly behind the main orchestra should be a lot further back.

While Sonic can be consoled that what I got is pretty decent compared to conventional systems reproducing this recording, I think if this CD was played in that wood room that will be soon shipped to Bill333, the rhombus will be 3 or 4 times the physical width of the room.

There is work to be done here.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 01, 2010 1:59 pm

Just taking a quick break from PZC making.

So far I have found that floor lights not more than 20" high or so have been the easiest to work with. Paper and fabric covered plastic ones give an interesting sound.

All lights require balancing acts from the rest of the system so I'm glad to see you guys talking about this.

back to work

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeTue Nov 02, 2010 10:52 am


Hi Michael and friends at the Zone

Sonic has tried a tune recommended on this site some time ago - use the 50 Hz hi-pass for the main speakers from the X-30 instead of the more conventional (audiophile conventional wisdom) 80 Hz turnover frequency.

Of course the subwoofer cutoff is to be adjusted down in frequency and the level adjusted.

It works! Better girth and a sense of scale at lower playback volumes. The Maggie 1.5QRs are responding nicely to being run with a wider frequency range. There is no strain and the 50 Hz setting gives a better sense of volume (decibel level and hall size). When I first read this idea Sonic had a sceptical moment but it seems to work.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:27 pm

Hi fellow Zonees

Sonic again tested the 50Hz main system cutoff vs 80Hz and found the lower turnover frequency to be better. The music is fuller and in my room, the transition between the speakers is smoother. I have adjusted the phase and turnover frequency as accurately as I and my non-laboratory standard test gear are capable and I'll dial in the level for the
Janis W-1 although this is programme dependent.

Sonic knows that a lot of music programme have their low bass rolled off and some tilt and boost can work wonders. I remember reading an interview with Richard Burwen who has a mind bending 5 channel mega horn system with lots of digital processing. He found that some opera material needed +60dB Shocked of boost at 15Hz to sound realistic....

Also Sonic is now testing a system electrical earth. On theoretical grounds (heh heh) this should be beneficial. I measured a 10V AC chassis voltage to ground with a floating earth and this is not good. The chassis should be at ground potential and not swing around with a +/- 20V potential difference.

Grounding is a strange thins. You can calculate it and plan it in a system but it is not easy to implement. A grounded system is safe and helps the system set a ground plane reference point for all apparatus to work off. That's the theory at least.

Here is what Sonic did.



Sonic's System - Page 14 SonicGrounded110510



How does it sound? Got to let it settle and the whole system reference again to a new potential but first off, treble is better (clearer, brighter) and everything sounds more fixed and stable. If this were a picture, a little bit of camera shake is gone. But now a little life and musicality of voices and instruments is reduced.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 07, 2010 12:44 pm


Hi fellow Zonees

Sonic is thinking about ways to get improved image focus from my tuned system. I been listening to my other systems (untuned) and have also heard some very expensive hi fi gear belonging to friends. In all these cases I hear better focus of voices and instruments -- the only thing is the ambient context is missing. So what I hear is music in a room. It is oil and water, not blended. On the other hand, my sort-of-tuned room gives me music that has context of instrument size and girth that is sited within an ambient field, which though not perfect, is beyond that of the physical room.

How to achieve this? I may have to experiment with the spacing of the Magneplanars and perhaps try some toe in. I generally eschew toe-in because in most cases it creates a curved soundstage where centre images are recessed from the centre line of the speakers and Left and Right hand images get bunched into the speaker positions. This makes for a presentation that is far from reality. I do remember Michael used to work with his speakers toed in but he seems to have moved away from this thinking.

But Sonic may give it a try because I have learnt in a limited way how to use the Shutters, PZCs and DRTs to change the perspective of the centre images and stage width so I might be able to get better focus and treble detail and a tuned soundstage with a little work.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 08, 2010 12:45 pm


Hi Zonees

Sonic has started moving the Magneplanars to find a spot where I can get focus, girth, treble sparkle, transients, width and ambient field all at once....tall order unless you are working with the Tune.

I am not there yet but I got a few things learnt:

a. Pressure zones can turn a system on its head -- I moved the speakers laterally and within a few inches I got to a spot where the volume or apparent amp power dropped off. It was like in a vacuum. I needed 6 more clicks on the preamp to get back to the former subjective volume level. Yet same room, same speakers, same amplification. No wonder some audiophiles claim they can drive inefficient speakers with SETs while other can't get more than a whisper with 200W amps....could some big amps get blamed when their owners just set up speakers in an anti-pressure zone?

b. While I was playing with placement, Sonic has tried the Rule of Thirds -- speakers at 1/3 pts across and down the room. I found this to be one of the worst placements -- not just for Magneplanars but for my Rogers and other speakers that passed my way. The frequency response may have been smooth but that was the deadest zone of all.

c. And the best placement from my many tries? Somewhere about the 1/2 point down the length of the room and around 1/5 pts across with moderately nearfield seating. Or close to the front wall for the speakers and seating at the opposite wall. But Michael has worked all this out...just proves that he's right.

d. I think I've found a good lateral position for the speakers that is acoustically efficient and the toe-in can be dialed in. There are some places in the room to choose from -- at one point, the soundstage went very wide but I started to feel that instruments were placed outside of my field of vision (like I needed eyes at the sides of my head to look at the players) but the sound did not appear to be that close up so there is a contradiction in presentation.

e. Need to dial in the ambience too and must remember that the system should be only producing ambience that is recorded in the programme and not sythesizing it. I wonder if I'll face the situation that some audio fans noticed -- that with improved transient response and slam, the sense of big ambience can actually be lessened.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 10, 2010 1:58 am

Inside of the ambience you will find the focus you seek. It's always a big musical trade off to have the focus without the supporting harmonics.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 11:54 am

Hi Michael and fellow Zonees

Looks like the electrical ground for Sonic's system is working. It gives a certain steadiness to the music and soundstage. Previously, the music was more open and slightly out of focus. Now it is sharper.

Here's a pix of my system with the speakers toed in.



Sonic's System - Page 14 SonicToeIn111310



I been testing for the best toe in angle and found something like this -- too little and nothing has changed but too much toe in pulls images to locate on the speaker panels and losse image girth (width). With the moderate near field listening position, this creates an soundstage where instruments at the images are out of my field of vision. Too Sonic this is unreal and irritating. Too wide but in a way that is not encounted in reality, except maybe standing on the conductor's podium.

So the toe in is somwhere between straight ahead and tweeters on axis to my ears, closer to stratight ahead.

Sonic found unlike my earlier expereince, I don't get a curved soundstage -- by tuning with the Shutters and the PZCs I can get music with instruments projected ahead of the speaker plane. But the setting seems dependent on, and needs adjustment with different programme materials.

Sonic doesn't know if what I am expereinceing answers Robert Harrison's question on his post but to get a good static tune with my speakers toed in, my Shutters on the front wall are angled in towards the listening zone and the Shutters on the side walls behind the speaker panels are also toed-in to the listening zone.

An angled Shutter doesn't act like an aeroplane's air brake or a car spoiler. When angled, the pressure zone on the obstuse side strengthens and the pressure zone on the acute side is reduced in strength from what Sonic's ears indicate.

The sound with the toed-in speakers is a whole order better than I have heard in many systems. Sonic is very pleased with the results. I wish I could go parallel to the walls and get the transient attack and the treble extension but this is good enough. I am still wondering how Michael's speakers can have no toe in, be listened to at extreme off axis positions and still reportedly good treble. Theoretically this is questionable -- the only hypothesis Sonic has is that if the listener is right up against the back wall, the straight ahead speakers will fire treble onto the rear wall the the treble signals will creep along the wall and reach the listener's ears. The laminar flow idea.

For a system where there is a secondary wall like mine or a SAM with the wall and listener distant from the back wall, toe in may be required to put treble signals on to the wall/SAM and let the flow bring as much treble as it can to the ears. Speakers pointed straight ahead will send the treble into the gap between the rear wall and the SAM and if the zone is has burn like my room, the high frequencies vanish/attenuate. So toe in has its place in the Zone and Tune thinks Sonic.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 13, 2010 12:39 pm

Hi Sonic,

Good to see a photo of your room from that perspective showing your setup.

When I had my panel speakers (Eminent Technology LFT IV), toe in was an adjustment that very significantly affected the sound. I think that's because the horizontal dispersion patterns of planar and dynamic driver box speakers are different. I always toed-in my ETs, if only slightly, in order not to have it sound out of focus. Toe-in especially helped focus the bass in my room. On the other hand, I now have my Classic 60's pointed straight ahead without toe-in. I have both ambience and focus.



jocolor jocolor

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeTue Nov 16, 2010 12:43 pm


Hi fellow Zonees

Sonic has recently experienced something which might explain some strands of audiophile thinking -- these last couple of days I heard two systems (apart from mine).....one was a largely DIY set up with 211 SET amps driving a China-made horn midrange/treble and bass (ported enclosure) system using Wharfedale or Altec units. The other was a conventional British 2-litre box monitor set up whose speakers are reportedly "neutral" and colouration free according to Robert E Greene of The Abso!ute Sound.

My host played some Copland and John Williams big orchestral pieces on both. On first listen the 211 and horn system sounded remarkbly alive, punchy and presented every instrument with defined leading-edge transients. The only thing Sonic could utter was "this is...alive".

The Brit system was pure, every instrument in place but thick and slow compared to the horn system. There was this the typical sound of many Rogers, Spendor and Harbeth 2-litre box type speakers. Extended trebles, thick mid bass with a moderate bass. Pleasant but not right the more I listen.

On the other hand, after a few CDs, the 211 tube and DIY horn system started to sound unbalanced and increasingly coloured. But there was a sense of life, with "slam, weight and projection" that the Brit system could not match. It was pure with every instrument rendered well but never sounded alive and "with me". The British system was in the end faked.

The tube and horn system was so entertaining, even through all the colouration.

I can see where fans of early Western Electric and Altec speakers and amps are coming from -- Sonic has learnt how a system can be very coloured on one hand yet alive and enjoyable at the same time. And inversely, how a system can be pure but sound thick and dead. I guess this means that an audio system can present several contrary sound values at the same time -- alive and coloured or thick, heavy yet with purity in timbre -- a system that get us to the heart and soul of the music being reproduced.

Fascinating but for Sonic...there are many choices but methinks I'll go for the sound of life...

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 19, 2010 10:20 am

Hi there fellow Zonees

As Sonic was listening to much musick this week, I started thinking about the Tune experiments I tried putting wings on the Magneplanars. Wings on the right or left or both edges of the panels weren't good at all. They gave the frequency response a signature that more than one Maggie owner on MUG has plotted -- a bumped up mid bass at around 200hz, a suckout of 2+dB around 1 kHz and then a convergence to the normal Maggie upper mid/HF response. In all not a pleasant frequency profile. Heavy hass (funny how really low bass -- 20 to 30Hz that is tight and free of doubling doesn't sound heavy), dim midrange and a "Maggie ribbon top end"....and in Sonic's findings, the wider the wing the more pronounced this effect is. The imaging does improve in some ways but the the drawbacks are too severe to keep this.

Then Sonic remembered what Michael said -- how he made wings for Maggie owners so they can build pressure up behind the panels. Build pressure....build pressure.... Idea

My room is tall -- about 10.5 ft....why not make a baffle on top of the 1.5QRs to extend their area upwards? I could maybe catch and control a slipstream of pressure in my room that I suspected existed higher up where the walls are bare and there are no Shutters or treatment until you get to the ceiling line.

Sonic had some balsa wood left over. Out came the tools and I made this:



Sonic's System - Page 14 SonicTopShutter111910



And the soundstage expanded -- up, towards the front wall and back to the listening chair.

Applause on live recordings came and started to surround me more than before. The treble improved. I could hear clearly how violins on some recordings were spot miked. The bass became bigger and richer -- like the difference between a synth note and one played on a rosewood bodied Martin dreadnought.

It seems there is some important pressure on tap in the upper half of my room.

Now Sonic must not jump to conclusions -- when I tried my cardboard shutters, having some at the top of the walls were beneficial but with the real Shutters, setting some near the top of the wall (about 2 ft short of the ceiling) diminished the soundstage particularly when done at the back wall.

Michael -- what do you think and what do you advise?

Sonic may have found the next level (heh heh) to Tune. And so much happily, the musick is again another step closer to what I imagine the Tune could be.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeFri Nov 19, 2010 11:57 pm

Hey, Sonic,

I was going to ask you to try putting something to the sides of your Maggies, between them and the wall, but facing toward the speakers at a 90 degree angle. Didn't you once have what you called some DIY Aeroplanes? Or whatever you used as wings. I am currently trying this with those little wooden children's benches I mentioned on my thread. They are only a couple of feet high, standing on end. The legs are right up against the wall and the face of the bench is about an inch from the side of each speaker.

I am not prepared to make any statements right now because, like you, there are things I have tried that haven't panned out after some settling, but I think the effects have something to do with how our speakers shoot out a null to the sides. What a flat surface (other than a wall) does to this, I'm not sure, but, especially with your concrete room, if you want to give it a go, it would be interesting to see what a wood barrier between the speakers and wall will do with your set-up.
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 20, 2010 7:07 pm

Hi Guys

First of all Robert, I need to send you an email on what I've been doing so you can see what you might want sent to you. As you have seen I've been working on lots.

Sonic,

I have always found that I like taking the panel to another level by treating it like I do drivers. It takes time and effort to find the balance (wood vs elements) but once this relationship starts to carefully shape up the new design as a whole becomes far better than just a panel speaker hanging out in mid air with frames not big enough to dissipate the vibration that the panel is producing.

You will notice that the rule of thumb is almost always more wood than part or element. Element meaning panel, driver, or diaphragm. None of you guys ever saw my microphone designs. Basically they were diaphragms attached to big wood panels that collected the sound. The wood of course was there to allow less stress and more coherency in the approaching sound waves which allowed the air pressure to build up nicely around the diaphragm. The results were pretty amazing and some companies to this day use this design in PZMs and other types of mikes. Both ends of music respond the same. A microphone is a speaker and a speaker is a microphone. One receives waves and the other creates waves. One area where a dynamic speaker will beat up on a panel is in the area of cabinet material. True most speaker designs don't have a clue how vibration works for the positive. Even so the dynamic range ("less stress" on a sound wave) in a wood cabinet increases volume. The Infinity IRS system years ago started to head down the right avenue by combining elements with wood but got off the beaten path when it was time for the real test. The real test of course is how much and what kind of wood to use with an element.

Your maggie or any panel speaker could become as dynamic as any other speaker if the physical design of the speaker was changed from the start. As Drewster said earlier his toe in problem went away with the 60s. This is because the 60s are built to work with sound waves and air pressure and not against it. I try to make my speakers totally dependent on the world around them whereas most try to and fail doing the opposite, making theirs as independent as possible. As you start to experiment with what is going on around your speakers keep your mind very open and try to find the balance between what is attached to the panel and what is close to the panel but not attached directly to it. For example, you could have a piece of wood directly behind the speaker not touching the frame of the speaker and find that it will sound dramatically different by attaching it in some way. Different energies (and yet the same) are at play at the same time when we are converting from sound pressure to mechanical and back again. What is going on with the conversion of these waves is much bigger than the design of your product as you know it.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 20, 2010 9:48 pm

Part 2

The panel itself is a very nice design and in some ways do things better than round piston speakers. For example, the push/pull on a panel can be very fast if in the right conditions.

What are the right conditions?

Panel speakers are lacking in structural support. Having a frame designed behind the panel makes a huge difference. Yes, the frame itself can cause problems but if done with care and a lot of listening it can render stunning results.

Panels need "good sounding" wood attached to them. Panels are going to sound like the rooms they are in and the frames they are attached to.

Panel speakers need to be able to make their way to ground properly. Because panels vibrate (or should vibrate) on a big scale they need to have a great floor or nice platform (even a built-in platform) to rest on.

Panel speakers need to have their panels vibrating (or not vibrating) at the top close to the same as at the bottom. One of the biggest problems with panels is the tower effect.

Panel speakers sound their best in high efficiency rooms. Anything that can be done to bring up the efficiency level of the panel (in balance) is a good thing.

Panel speakers sound better when electronic parts are outboard.

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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSun Nov 21, 2010 11:54 am


Hi Robert and Michael

Sonic has tried some other combination of Shutters and DIY and aeroplanes but most didn't work right so I didn't report them -- some of have "aeroplanes" between the speakers and the wall ahead of the speaker plane and in line with it, and also Michael's Shutters on the wall, adjacent to the speakers so they act like a wing extension, and Shutters ahead of the speaker plane. The aeroplanes (DIY) created a secondary reflection which reduced the width of the soundfield information. I could hear something close to the speakers pushing the side images inward.

Shutters near the 1.5QRs caused an imaginary line to be drawn between me and the musick so I was more separated from the performance than before. Also just like Michael said, the materials could have contributed to the results but the Shutters were geniune MGA gear.

But as for the top baffle which I posted about -- if seems after 72 hours of settling, they are turning odd. A good listener whose ears Sonic always relies on for a telling view sat down and listened and she said "that string bass....everytime I hear it here it sounds right, it has metal strings like I hear with the real thing (in jazz ensembles) but now it sounds soft and muted.....I can't tell what the strings are made of."

Sonic was taken aback. I listened and she was right. The mid bass had gone heavy and thick. Down came the baffles. And she remarked "yes that's what I meant, the bass strings are OK now".

Also this fine listener remarked that the rattan footstool gave better centre image focus and slightly more volume while a coffee table book placed on it muted the sound.

This is perplexing. But maybe it is just the settling? Or the variations when the Tune is carried out in a room with hard walls.

Anyway, the system is giving me a good soundstage that is within a 90 degree angle from my listening chair. This is something I have tuned for -- that the speakers in nearfield should be inaudible and the instrumental images should reside in the 90 degree pie wedge depending on how close miked the music is and the size of the ensemble.

Debussy's La Mer was out at the front wall which gave an orchestral width that was wider than my room and natural sounding with a convincing perspective. From the live concerts I heard, this is close to how an orchestra of this size will sould in a concert hall relative to where I sit. At the same time, Buxtehude's trio sonatas (Musica Antigua Koln, Archiv) imaged somewhere between the front wall and the speaker plane which is correct for the ensemble of a violin, a viola gamba and a harpsichord.

In extreme nearfield applications (where the speaker baffles are close to being in line with the front of the listening chair), musical images could be too forward and this closed in perspective could place some primary voices or instruments out of the field of vision which is hardly how we want to listen to music in live settings....way too close...and then the girth and the height and playback volume have to be consistent with the perceived distance.

I remember playing some old Cream on my system -- Tales of Brave Ulysses -- imagine if Clapton's guitar was at your right shoulder but just out of your field of vision, Baker's drums at your left, far left and also down the Left wall, Bruce's bass filling the space in front and vocals about four feet forward from you...will you ever hear a performance like this? Will the performers and their gear fit in the room and what playback volume would be right when everyting is this close? Possibily higher that OHSA safety limits will allow.

Sonic
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Sonic.beaver



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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 24, 2010 11:57 am


Hi fellow Zonees

While Sonic ponders the experience with the Top Baffles, I remember how seemingly small things can affect the sound in a big way.

Some time ago, I found one of the power supply caps in my preamp leaking. I sent the preamp in for repair. Replaced the cap with an equivalent value, tighter tolerance unit from an approved brand.

Then the repairman (who doesn't understand the Tune) said he thought my use of Michael's T2 Bare Essence wire as a mains cable was dangerous -- it was bare 22 AWG wire lightly clamped in the Hubbell plug. He suggested that we bend the wire over the insulation then clamp the cable, conductor + insulation so breakage was no longer a risk.

I agreed, took the unit home and fired it up. Of course it took time for the cap the gel and settle...but even after 70 hours of playing time, Sonic said "this don't sound right, it is worse than before...is it the caps (being audiophile grade?)" The sound had a certain heaviness to it and the trebles weren't free.

Thought I -- it could be the mains wire...but the effect should be small given the short length of insulatuion involved....OK Tunees will guess that it was significant. When Sonic freed up the wire and lightly clamped the conductor without the insulation, the sound jumped up and came to life.

Yes, the insulation was only 3/8 inch but it made a difference when not clamped. This links back to what Michael said -- you can tie and knot in a cable and hear the soundstage shrink. The super-fast IBM typewriter was slowed down by tying a loop in the power cable too according to him. In the Tune, everything has some effect.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSat Nov 27, 2010 6:58 am

Hi Michael and fellow Zonees!

I have been loosening my system fuses this week – starting with the mains and speaker fuses in the subwoofer amp and then mains fuses in the main amp.

Previously this didn’t work. When tried the sound became vague and indistinct. But one thing Sonic has learned with Michael’s advice is that if something work at first, it could be that my system has not reached the point where enough blockages have been removed.

So I do try things again. In my closet there is not only all the spare wood, EchoTunes, springs and rods also a list of things to try again. For instance, I started out Type 3 speaker cables. As following the example of other tunees, I brought this down to T2 – at first awful -- but with more tuning and freeing things up, my Magneplanars are driven with T1 Bare Essence and the Janis subwoofer with T3. And they work very well.

It is not unlikely that I could one day find that the softer hand wound Harmonic Springs from Michael may in fact sound great.

Sonic recently went back to the Full Music 12AX7 tubes in the preamp. They are good sounding things but you may remember I was quite frustrated with them saying they gave off noise and ugly sounds. Well I tested them in my Pioneer amp and found indeed one Full Music was noisy -- unacceptable level of white noise in the background but did not give off the motor boating noises.

It turned out the motor boating noise was an interaction with my system running with the electrical ground lifted. After I replaced the ground, that tube just gave off white noise not a braaap! braap! sound that could become speaker destroying.

That the Full Music tube broke down and hissed within 6 weeks isn’t saying much for their QC but I am back with them in the Quicksilver and while they work, they are superior to the EHs and Sovteks I use.

Remember though that this is a “modern tube sound”. I have GE tubes in the Pioneer and they are a different breed. Mullards are nice but sound too mellow to my ears but their prices are getting ridiculous. One store in Singapore is charging US$200 per Mullard 12AX7 claimed to be NOS.

There is a wave of nostalgia for old equipment that is gaining a following. Sonic has heard of Gre Pin from China. They take supposedly NOS Western Electric tubes and build re-pro WE amps round them. So on special order, you can get a replica WE amplifier rack with glowing tubes. Don’t know how much it will cost or how reliable these things are.

This could be a function of what I commented about single-parameter fixation where an audiophile listens to or for one parameter, zeroes in on that and thinks the system is wonderful (which it might be in this one area) but a failure everywhere else.

And of course, this is a sign that they don’t know what the Tune can do.

Sonic
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PostSubject: Re: Sonic's System   Sonic's System - Page 14 Icon_minitimeMon Nov 29, 2010 6:07 am

Hi Sonic

I wanted to make a comment about what the non-tunee guy said.

"Then the repairman (who doesn't understand the Tune) said he thought my use of Michael's T2 Bare Essence wire as a mains cable was dangerous -- it was bare 22 AWG wire lightly clamped in the Hubbell plug. He suggested that we bend the wire over the insulation then clamp the cable, conductor + insulation so breakage was no longer a risk."

What engineers and designers should be focused on is how to make good sound then figure out how to preserve that sound when making a unit for customers.

I think we are approaching a time where we are getting closer to this with the design of units now being built with much fewer parts to get the job done. The age of simply built digital amps is here and in time we will unlock the key to them sounding very life like.

Big difference when you set the blockage free!

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