Tuning My Musical Journey

Michael -- this is a discouraging time for Sonic.

I went back to the centre cluster of a central FS-PZC and two FS-DRTs perpendicular to the front wall and the bass came back pretty fast.

Then Sonic decided to close down and sleep on it. And I dreamed (Sonic really did).

In my dream I had placed the speakers way at the front wall about 3 ft from and the same distance I keep my panels from the side walls. And what I heard in my dream when playing some baroque music or was it Mozart, was a very nice curtain of sound that stretched across the width of the room.

On waking I tried this. After all with such a failure after all this time I got nothing to lose. And I got a curtain of sound with a very focussed and projected centre image. The bass was also fuller and went deeper.

This is no consolation. Sonic felt even worse. With dipole speakers, the room is not supposed to work like this.

What does this tell you? What shall I do next -- apart from getting so despondent that I get rid of my speakers, use my Sennheiser HD700s with a tube headphone stage and forget about all this acoustics stuff.....

About your prediction. I am too tired to think of anymore sub-woofering.

OK if I build a voiced false ceiling -- what does this involve?

Any false ceiling built in this room will need to be sloping given that the air conditioning unit is right at the top of the wall in the back of the room. So the false ceiling will have to start lower at the front and slope up towards the back.

Comments quickly if you please.

Sonic

An Update

With the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs about 3ft from the front wall and the outer edges of the speaker panels 20 inches from the side walls with a mild toe in towards the listening chair, it is surprising how dimensional and projected centre stage images I am getting. At worst this is a "reverse banana soundstage" which is much preferable to a "banana soundstage" where the centre images are far back compared to images at the speaker positions. Wide soundstage beyond the walls and a surprising lack of an expected reduction of depth despite the closeness to the front wall. Bass extended but heavy. Sonic uses an equalizer -- the use of a subwoofer and its gain is equalization of the bass by other means. So I shrug my shoulders "big deal, if all it takes is +3dB to +4db on the JVC SEA-10 to give all the bass I need that is fine with Sonic." All the images, even those at the loudspeaker positions and beyond the outside edges of loudspeaker panels, are about 1ft ahead of the panels and the middle images about 3 ft from the speaker plane. Sonic listened Ride Across the River and the crickets covered most of the ceiling. Then played Jordi Savall and Hesperion playing music from the Spanish baroque. The imaging of each instrument is clear while the bass from the percussion projects forward. Then Neil Young's Tonight's the Night. The late Danny Whitten is singing "C'mon baby let's go downtown". The roar of Neil and Crazy Horse is imaging beyond my side walls. Then a Cat Stevens singing about a sad ghost called Lisa and about Longer Boats that are coming to win us, hold on to the shore, they will be taking the key from the door. Sonic is still saddened with my system. It is now past midnight and I can hear the monsoon rains outside.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

I'll get to your posts, but just wanted to reassure you in the fact, no matter where our systems are at the moment, the music hasn't gone anywhere. The relationships we build with our systems is as involved as a close friend. My most enjoyable times is when I get to hear a piece of music blossom. Going from several systems back to one would break my heart as everytime I walk from one area to the next it feels like greeting a partner at the door.

Something that I love about the tune is that I discovered it at a young age. I look at the investment audiophiles pour into this hobby (recently on stereophile for example) and think how lucky I have been that I have let go of the high end audiophile ride and instead given myself over to the ride of music. Sometimes little battles come into my listening, but for some reason I don't hesitate to change the mechanics around me. The tools and the room really are what makes the music. If I can create the space and the paths of energy, the rest becomes very easy and even in those tough patches (usually as a result of shaking something up) I can rely on being there to bring me back to the point of bliss and even beyond.

One of the biggest parts to finding that peace we seek is giving our listening lives over to the room instead of the components in the room. The components are certainly important and fun on many levels of satisfaction, but they aren't the space that we need to recreate the musical notes. I've walked into rooms where the notes played, but when I sat down the music was gone. The things that we know were supposed to happen disappeared. The opposite also happens, where all is right in that tini sweet spot, till I put on the next recording then all is lost.

There's something that is also almost as trying. When I look at this hobby and industry, I think about life and life-time. I from early on decided if there was one thing I was going to be sure to do, it's not spend most of my listening life getting there. I looked at music and found the most important part of it from a listeners point of view. After owning several audio stores and doing the audiophile thing, I found out that the most important part to all of this is the environment. All said, electronics have come a long way. We might have to redo them some so they can over come signal blockage, but there are now electronics out there that tune up like magic. Speakers as well are fine. They need to go back to simple and maybe get rid of a few parts but this too can be figured out. But the environment is something reviewers are scared to death to address. It's for sure the biggest part of this whole hobby of high end but the industry simply isn't brave enough to tell the extreme listener that they might need to tune or even build to get to the place where the equipment can relax and do it's thing.

Everytime this rolls around in my brain I thank God that for some reason I put first things first. The room for me isn't the last thing on the long list of parts. The room to me is the star player, then mechanics then electrical. I've given up the fight that the components are going to correct the space, and given myself over to, if the space can't do it, rebuild it. In the process of this so many years ago it the room taught me about components not the other way around. You see if I put components and speakers in charge of the room, instead of the other way around, I will never get away from the trade-off game. I will have moments of bright lights, but I will never have that big picture peace that comes with the space telling the components, speakers and music what to do and do it in harmony. Trust me, I might be one of the guys who early on tried to do this as much as anyone, but the truth is I aways came back to the space itself and the 4 fundamentals as playing true.

sonic

I went back to the centre cluster of a central FS-PZC and two FS-DRTs perpendicular to the front wall and the bass came back pretty fast.

Then Sonic decided to close down and sleep on it. And I dreamed (Sonic really did).

In my dream I had placed the speakers way at the front wall about 3 ft from and the same distance I keep my panels from the side walls. And what I heard in my dream when playing some baroque music or was it Mozart, was a very nice curtain of sound that stretched across the width of the room.

On waking I tried this. After all with such a failure after all this time I got nothing to lose. And I got a curtain of sound with a very focussed and projected centre image. The bass was also fuller and went deeper.

This is no consolation. Sonic felt even worse. With dipole speakers, the room is not supposed to work like this.

What does this tell you?

mg

If I followed audiophile rules I wouldn't be in this hobby . It's important to realize when we as listeners go past the high end audio designers and reviewers. Strangly enough it's not that hard to do.

sonic

What shall I do next -- apart from getting so despondent that I get rid of my speakers, use my Sennheiser HD700s with a tube headphone stage and forget about all this acoustics stuff.....

mg

I think you ought to make friends with your system again and have some fun.

sonic

About your prediction. I am too tired to think of anymore sub-woofering.

mg

Sub-woofering is not the same as audiophile subwoofering, ask Drewster and Hiend001

sonic

OK if I build a voiced false ceiling -- what does this involve?

Any false ceiling built in this room will need to be sloping given that the air conditioning unit is right at the top of the wall in the back of the room. So the false ceiling will have to start lower at the front and slope up towards the back.

mg

Honestly, I would recommend us going back to a place we have before a few times and this time do it using the tune instead of trying to mix the tune and the audiophile voices in your head.

sonic

Comments quickly if you please.

mg

I can only tell you why my systems work so well for me and others as well as point you to some basics that might be the trigger for your hobby.

sonic

"With the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs about 3ft from the front wall and the outer edges of the speaker panels 20 inches from the side walls with a mild toe in towards the listening chair, it is surprising how dimensional and projected centre stage images I am getting. At worst this is a "reverse banana soundstage" which is much preferable to a "banana soundstage" where the centre images are far back compared to images at the speaker positions. Wide soundstage beyond the walls and a surprising lack of an expected reduction of depth despite the closeness to the front wall. Bass extended but heavy. Sonic uses an equalizer -- the use of a subwoofer and its gain is equalization of the bass by other means. So I shrug my shoulders "big deal, if all it takes is +3dB to +4db on the JVC SEA-10 to give all the bass I need that is fine with Sonic." All the images, even those at the loudspeaker positions and beyond the outside edges of loudspeaker panels, are about 1ft ahead of the panels and the middle images about 3 ft from the speaker plane. Sonic listened Ride Across the River and the crickets covered most of the ceiling. Then played Jordi Savall and Hesperion playing music from the Spanish baroque. The imaging of each instrument is clear while the bass from the percussion projects forward. Then Neil Young's Tonight's the Night. The late Danny Whitten is singing "C'mon baby let's go downtown". The roar of Neil and Crazy Horse is imaging beyond my side walls. Then a Cat Stevens singing about a sad ghost called Lisa and about Longer Boats that are coming to win us, hold on to the shore, they will be taking the key from the door. Sonic is still saddened with my system. It is now past midnight and I can hear the monsoon rains outside."

mg

Take the audiophile handbook to your window and gently toss it to the wind. Watch the pages float through the air until it is far from your view. Sonic, these guys who write this stuff are guys sitting in living rooms with systems that have far more problems than yours. Or, they're guys who have extremely limited staging and choose to live within that box.

Secondly, just because I go all out and make stages that are way out there and very adjustable doesn't mean others have to follow suit. I don't know one audiophile who gets it all, but I know lots of listeners who are in love with the fact that they can go wherever they want to go.

The most important advice I can give you is enjoy the music. Maybe the next step as of right now is learn to use your EQ and forget what others say or think. Forget about the do's and don'ts and let the music take you outside of audiophile rules.

Maybe you need a break and make your room into a cool living room/listening room. Bring in sofas and rugs and do some basic tuning but lean on your EQ. It might get on your nerves a little but what's wrong with going backward a few steps.

You know, sometimes I sit back in my writing room on the bed and listen to the music not even thinking about the stages I have in the other rooms. I know I can go there anytime I want but sometimes I'm just fine listening outside or in my writing room or kitchen or wherever. The fun thing about music is we can take it with us, and we can make our own rules.

Before you think too much, and too much about a drop ceiling set the room up so it is as comfortable as you like. It doesn't have to be perfect, it has to comfort you. Let others go after their perfect. One thing I could never do is be mad at my system and want to ditch the hobby. What would be wrong with going living room, including headphones and as you said, give up all this acoustical stuff? I think you've done a heck of a job making the maggies do what they can, and a heck of a job with your room. You've learned a lot and helped a lot of others, but your space is your space (I mean that both literally and concept).

There's a lot more to being an audiophile than audiophile setups. Maybe there's a reason you don't want to empty out the bookcase and slowly tuning it, or making a real SAM behind you. Maybe it's time to look at the book cases and what are in them. Your next move is not up to me, it's up to you. You know by now what I would do if I had your space, but the important question is, what do you do with your space. Not me, not the audiophiles, but Sonic. What makes Sonic tick as a listener? Doesn't have to be right, doesn't have to be wrong, it just needs to be you.

Hi Sonic, hope your feeling better

BTW, take a look here



Have you ever taken the back panel off of this unit? Having metal that close to the RCA's could be causing interference. Not always but many times thin metal plates holding the RCA ins and outs will act as non-wanted partial shields. When I spotted this in your pic my flag went up that maybe this is doing some funny stuff.

Hi Sonic, I've seen you come out of listening challenges before. I like the advice that you use your equalizer more. If I had a big hard room like yours that's what I would do. I'd try to get more wood in there and equalize.

Thank you Rotelguy for the encouragement

Maybe Sonic is taking this Tuning thing too seriously and I just need get into musick -- perhaps go to more of the local orchestra's and ensemble concerts, maybe have some wine in one of the jazz joints.

I have an Equaliser and I am going to use it

Now if my Magneplanar MG1.5QRs sound good 3 feet from the front wall then Sonic needs to give thanks to God that my speakers work and I have the means to enjoy music. Last week I had a conversation with a musician who is plagued by tinnitus. I must be thankful to God that I have my hearing intact and no sounds of a drill in my head.

So here Sonic is getting to know a different room and system layout. Before speaking too fast, Sonic needs to get the measure of what the sound is like now. There is major settling going on after the speakers' big move. Sonic will be reporting on this shortly. Right now Sonic is not certain.

Michael gave good ideas to Sonic -- thanks Mr Green

Yes maybe my favourite carpet might come back. A sofa, perhaps or perhaps not. What Sonic does next will be determined by what the sound turns into over the next few days.

Michael -- that is good tip about the effect of the rear metal panel of the Blu ray player. Sonic never thought of that one

Bach's Brandenburg Concertos are playing (Munchener Bach-Orchester/Karl Richter cond./Archiv CD). The sound is big, the bass slightly too much, very flat through the midrange. A very different sound from having the speakers about 3 1/2 feet further forward from where they are now. Very different indeed like the whole tonal centre of gravity has shifted lower in pitch.

Sonic

Hi Sonic, one of the many things I have learned from Mr. Green is be flexible. Do things that don't force your system or you. Michael designs speakers to be flexible. Other speakers don't have the same abilities because their adjustments are limited. This alone means you may not be able to go where he does with your sound. Guys who don't have the same options find out that some of the tricks of tuning may not happen with other brands. Discovering tunable speakers has transformed the hobby for us. It would be hard for me to listen to anything other speakers seriously. It's not a matter of good or bad but being able to dial things in. You have taken your system a long way and you have come a long way but can it really compete against something like a Viola FS? The FS has a place for mass loading and tuning bolts. Even this goes further than any other speakers made. I don't know what the older models sounded like but the Viola FS is by far the best speaker at any price we have ever heard. The Chameleon is something we can't wait to experience. Here's what I'm trying to say. Don't think of your speakers or any speakers the same way you do of tunable speakers. As you have experienced when you are thinking tuning great things happen. When you try to mix tuning with something not made to tune it's more like a HiFi system. Tuning will help you but can a HiFi system that is built for limited performance do what a tunable system does? Like I said I doubt that I could ever go back to the frustration of a speaker not built to tune.

Give your speakers a break and don't try to force them into becoming something they aren't. I'm sure Michael would do anything he could to set the speakers and your room free but it looks to me like some of the parts of your system will only go so far.

Rotel

What your saying is making sense to me. Wonder why tunable speakers have not been made the standard? I've always wondered why equalizers were removed from component lists. The discrete component trend was a stupid move. What's wrong with making high end equalizers and tone controls?

When tone controlling stopped so did the hobby.

Greetings Rotelguy and Lefthanded!

A few months ago the idea of Sonic using an equalizer in any application here other than to fix the eq of non-RIAA records would have been incomprehensible. Now the JVC SEA-10 has shown how the hi-fi world made a grand detour when they threw away tone controls and equalisers. Earlier Sonic might have said EQs would be OK if they could be made to sound transparent but then Sonic came to my senses that if our Tone was messed up by frequency aberrations that will be far worse than a small loss of transparency -- and how much of that loss is due to an audiophile's self-programming? For me when the JVC was first used, I heard all kinds of veiling which either resolved or were not real, existing in my head.

Sonic uses the JVC SEA-10 in these ways:

a. a small boost at 40hz to give extension to the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs in this room. Now with my MG1.5QRs are closer to the walls the amount of boost may reduce. This is the basic set up, all other frequency bands are flat.

b. occasional compensation of recordings. More often these are CDs where I drop the 5khz and or 10/15khz a dB or two to get rid of the CD brightness. Once in a way LPs might need a touch of lift at those bands. I never touch the middle bands so the little 5-band JVC is just right.

c. when playing 78rpms and pre-RIAA SPs then the settings become something like 40hz -8dB, 250hz -6dB, 1kHz flat, 5kHz +4 db, 10khz will be cut to a level that reduces record noise.

Sonic thinks the EQ is one of the best buys I ever made (got it very inexpensively and in excellent condition from eBay).

Now to the comments from fellow-Tunee Rotelguy:

Sonic thinks you are right that I might have taken the MG1.5QRs as far as they can. Too true is that tunable speakers from Michael are the way to go. The thing is Sonic has never heard a tunable speaker or for that matter what a Michael Green tuned system sounds like. I originally heard of Mr Green's products as effective acoustic control devices. And his pillow products in my room which was back then home to a sofa, carpets, curtain and different speakers did their job. As I explored the Tuneland site, Sonic discovered another world. I read about the adventures of my teachers James Bookhard (RIP), cdimi, Hiend1/001, Garp, Drewster, Bill333, Dr Stesiak and many more. I read their descriptions of how Michael's products blew their minds. Sonic believed they experienced something "life-changing", and yet I have not heard what they heard and I know how well/badly verbal descriptions translate into actual first hand experience.

My FS-DRTs, FS-PZCs and the wood do some things out of the ordinary but being of a cautious disposition, will Sonic spend upwards of $4,000 on a pair of loudspeakers without hearing what they sound like?

Sonic has no frame to even think of the Tunable speakers -- I have heard various Magneplanars, JBL and Altec horns, the big Tannoys, the BBC Harbeths and Spendors, the Quads and SoundLabs electrostatics and I have a concept what they sound like and what they can do. My benchmark of the sound I want is on experiences of JBL/Altec horns driven by flea watters playing orchestral music and big Tannoy Westminsters, Western Electric amps, Garrard 301, SME 3012 with an Ortofon SPU cartridge playing a Muddy Waters LP.

Sonic is envious that you have heard the Viola speakers so you have had an experience that Sonic only knows about from the description of others. Hence my quandary where Sonic presses on sight-unseen/ears-unheard.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

The speakers you mentioned and system are way different from what you are listening to now (I'm speaking as an audiophile here).

"My benchmark of the sound I want is on experiences of JBL/Altec horns driven by flea watters playing orchestral music and big Tannoy Westminsters, Western Electric amps, Garrard 301, SME 3012 with an Ortofon SPU cartridge playing a Muddy Waters LP."

Above is a pretty cool system, very colored but really cool. I wonder if it would bug you after a while, but I think it could be a pretty neat experience in your room. It would be a blast to have a serious horn system on TuneLand

Along these lines what other speakers have you thought about?

Greetings Michael and Zonees

When Sonic is cautious about putting cash down for Michael’s speakers like the Viola FS without hearing them even after reading about many Zonees’ experience with tunable speakers, rooms and such, it is not to be taken as an distrust of what you, my fellow-Tunees, wrote.  It is because words are never enough to describe things without assumptions being made which are related to the reader’s frame of reference. There is always the possibility in reading your descriptions of the Tune of say a soundstage, Sonic understands what a soundstage is from what I have heard which might not be what you are describing.  And it is the same when you read my description of my sound system.  The only way round this is for all of use to gather in a room tuned by Michael, he demos it and we all agree on a common vocabulary to be used in describing the Tune from henceforth.  Given that is not going to happen, this is about the best we can do.  If Sonic ever got to hear the Tune really, I might the most fervent advocate of it or Sonic might disappear into another parallel dimension never to be seen and heard again. Who knows.  

What other loudspeakers does Sonic like? The list is not long – the Magneplanar Tympani, Magneplanar 20, the JBL 4355, Tannoy Westminster, the Tannoy Canterbury, Harbeth HL 5 Super Plus and the Audio Note AN-E SPs with appropriate amplification. Which would I like to own? Sonic meditates for a moment and types the first thing that comes to mind – the Tannoy Westminister. Second choice -- the Harbeth.      

Sonic is getting to tuning my room with the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs at 3ft from the front wall.  The sound is harmonically thick in the low end which is good in this room.  And why not given that speakers are in Pressure Zones near the front corners? And come to think of it, I am also sitting in a pressure zone of sorts by being near the Bookcase Wall. Sonic must get used to this bass-heavy sound for a while till my taste equilibrates given that I have been exposed to a thinner analytical-type sound for so long.  Sonic must de-programme my ears a bit before touching the tonal balance especially that with my benchmark recordings, the bass goes from over-ripe to thin within one 2dB step – just a click of the JVC SEA-10.  Anyway it is easier to cut bass than to increase it by acoustical/tuning means, aside from using the EQ sliders.

After a few days after moving the speakers and getting Mr Green’s advice, Sonic decided to go and set the room like this:



This set up is surprisingly promising. For one thing, there is now rather a lot of bass. Music and speech have weight. Also the midrange is forward without being piercing. The images are slightly forward of the speaker plane and though the stage is close to the front wall, they are not squashed against it. Sonic will describe the sound as it settles and I get to understand what the system and room is doing within the limits of language.

And after this, I have my favourite rug and a sofa to try.  Yes, mayhap Sonic shall bring in the carpet and sofa to control the wayward room and restore the liveliness by unloading the bookcase.

Sonic

Hi Sonic A Wise Move!

I don't say wise move because this is better or worse. I say it because you are getting to know another chapter of your room and how it changes your electronics.

sonic said

" The only way round this is for all of use to gather in a room tuned by Michael, he demos it and we all agree on a common vocabulary to be used in describing the Tune from henceforth."

mg

If I had all of you here, I probably wouldn't show my stage but have each of you go in and do your stage

The way I explore music is more than set it up and listen and say that's it. Hard to explain really unless you do it. What I do is get the system to the place where I can make all kinds of moves within the recording. Listening with me is more like "listen to this" then I make a certain move and say "now listen to it". I do this until you start to see how you can make predictable adjustments then I let you go.

It's quite different than listening to fixed signatures, and I would say everyone I have met that experiences it for the first time says "I didn't understand until now what you were talking about".

for example

Remember back when we did the cricket test and you mentioned the frogs and where? At that point I made a small adjustment keeping most things the same in the recording and brought that part of the soundstage to life more so I could see into what you were talking about.

to the trust issue

When Sonic gives a list of the the other speakers, does Sonic intend to move into the rooms where he heard them? It's a boo boo to think that something you hear somewhere else is going to even come close to what it will sound like at your place. MG suspects the whispering of audiophiles in your ear or the audiophile devil on your shoulder telling you those notions.

if asking me

All of the speakers you mentioned have signature that are different from each other and if we took a field trip together to go listen to them we would talk about the sound of the system yes, but we would also talk about the sound of each room. If with me I would have you make a list of both the room and sound of system and speaker, picking out the do's and don'ts. I would then take you back to your place and see if we could duplicate that same sound. In a matter of a short time we would come to the conclusion that a fixed speaker is going to give you a signature sound no matter what. Speaker/system/room. So putting on your tuning brain, make the maggies sound like one of those "sounds". Don't think about the brand, think about the sound. The sound part is what you make it into, and this is when you fined out if your speakers are to stay or go. If a tunable system, you should be able to create the sound of every speaker you mentioned.

my thoughts

When I heard you a couple of days ago talk about these different sounds the first thing that came to my mind was, let's go buy an Alpha-A15 and build a tunable speaker around it. There are few drivers out there that tuned can create the blend of sounds you described in your room without changing the surfaces and size of your room and the Alpha-A15 is one of them.

got to run, but lets talk about the sound more

Greetings Michael

MG: I would say everyone I have met that experiences it for the first time says "I didn't understand until now what you were talking about".

Sonic: the Tune is so many orders over and different from conventional audio that it cannot be experienced by reading a report. Especially if we are relating using audiophile vocabulary to understand what is being described.

Sonic is interested in what you said about the Alpha A15 -- I checked on the internet and saw there is an Eminence 15 inch driver used for guitar cabinets. Is this what you are talking about? If so what about baffle or cabinets.

What have you got in mind Sonic is intrigued.

Even more intriquing is to hear you say a tunable system and speaker can let me adjust the sound so I can get the sound of those systems -- Tannoy, Harbeth? By extension I can create the sound of a Western Electric horn Am I reading you correctly?

The carpet just came back. And quickly I can hear the effect. The sound is becoming drier and the sound of individual voices/instruments are "tightened" and a "little smaller in their expansion into space of the room" without no feeling that the sound is damped though there is a feeling that the acoustic is now "handling the projection of the musick towards listener." I have gained a few more feet of outside the speaker width The bass is more prominent which with some recordings feels the musick is played a bit slower. This I understand -- Sonic means if I wanted fast PRAT I should just go listen to a bass light mini-monitor particularly those with extremely dead cabinets made of synthetic materials

Sonic

Hi Sonic

don't worry MG hears ya


I believe this would get you pretty close to incorporating all the sounds you mentioned.

Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic finds the sound to be getting better as settling progresses. The volume level for a preamp setting is higher which probably means Sonic is engaging the pressure zones more efficiently. Bass is extended but slightly heavy. The stage width is expanding.

Sonic says that I like this but I know that I have said this type of thing before and over time have learned of an “arc of experience” where I go from positive excitedness through to dithering to a kind of disaffection. Knowing how long it takes me to go through this arc which is recorded in my notes (of course there are many Tunes that did not go through the “arc” but were wholly successful), Sonic aims to sit it out over the "arc" period and see how I feel at the end of the “arc”. Though Sonic suspects that one explanation of the disaffection at the end is that I may well have Tuned a good one, then tried to improve it and in the process got lost and caused negative tuning due to my inexperience as a Tunee.

Only Michael can do what I read about at the Tune factory. Music was playing in a test room and Mr Green from a room or two away heard the sound and called out to the craftsmen "your rack is out of balance....(do this or thart)" and he was spot on

Now about the Alpha A-15. Sonic has looked at the Eminence driver and the drawings of the cabinet. I don’t quite understand what Michael is suggesting here. Are you suggesting that Sonic buys the complete speaker or will it be knocked down and assembled here? I think you know how shipping costs to Singapore can add multiples to the price of a product.

Sonic

Greetings Michael

The experience of listening to musick with the speakers placed near the front wall has taught Sonic the shape of the pressure zones in this room. What I hear are strong zones along the front wall at least 4 feet deep, then there are pressure zones running in a thin layer of about 2 feet thick along the side walls and a fairly thick zone again at the rear wall. There is a layer on the ceiling.

In the middle of the room what zones there may be are weak. This explains why moving the speakers towards the centre of the room from the side walls thins the bass if the speakers are not in the front pressure zone field. It also points to why when Sonic did not have the Bookcase Wall, a placement for the listening chair forward of the room was thin and tipped up tonally.

When Sonic listens atop a ladder, the sound at the ceiling is quite reasonable though part way up things go thin. Pointing to this room having pressure near surfaces and little in open spaces.

Now with the Bookcase Wall, I have created a pressure zone around me even though Sonic is sitting far forward in the room.

Sonic is thrilled how the extended and weighty the bass is now. And the pressure zones are carrying the imaging to the sidewalls and down the length of the room giving girth and width.

It could be that Sonic, with Michael's guidance, is cracking the mysteries of this room.

Your comments Michael?

Sonic

Hi Sonic

"Now about the Alpha A-15. Sonic has looked at the Eminence driver and the drawings of the cabinet. I don’t quite understand what Michael is suggesting here. Are you suggesting that Sonic buys the complete speaker or will it be knocked down and assembled here?"

mg

I was simple wearing my version of audiophile hat and based off of the sound you have been talking about from different speakers this is how my ears interpreted that sound.

Hi Sonic

The main thing to remember is in physics all the frequencies are there, they just need to be turned on and or turned up or down.

Hi Michael and Zonees  

A few more days on as December and the rainy season here progresses. Sonic is listening to more musick and thinking less about mods and tuning. But I am not not thinking of tuning though    Sonic is getting a nice balance from treble through the mids down to impressively deep bass. And a wide soundstage too.

Sonic ventures that the pressure zone diagram for my room looks like this.



Michael – have you seen Pressure Zones like this before – where movement towards the centre of the room reduces warmth and bass?

Sonic has brought back my favourite carpet after all these years.



Tunees will notice the back plate is still on the CD player.  Sonic will get to that.  Also the phono stage in the mini-clamprack will be soon moved back a few inches.  At present it is a little too far forward and might get struck by an arm or foot as the preamp and equaliser are adjusted.

Sonic has an inkling that Michael’s prediction of me going back to using a subwoofer might be coming true.  With my present tonal balance I think the balance and connection with the subwoofer to the main system might be much better than earlier attempts.  If I were to bring in a subwoofer, where are some of the places in Sonic's room you would advise me to try placing the box?  You can mark the spots on the Pressure Zone drawing if you please.

The placements ruled out is any spot behind the loudspeakers because there is now no space.

Michael -- help Sonic get this right.  I think we are getting close    

Sonic

Greetings Michael and Zonees

While Sonic waits for Michael to reply with his guidance, here are some points to add to my post:

a.To explain the Pressure Zone drawing -- the dark shaded area around the perimeter of the room is where Sonic can place the speakers and get good bass. You'll notice the Zone at the front wall is deep, while those at the sides are narrower. This is intentionally drawn based on what Sonic hears in BOO! testing and listening to music. The Loudspeakers are now placed within the thick zone at the front wall.

b.To explain more of the Pressure Zone drawing -- below the thick pressure zone at the front wall, marked by the dark shaded area, you will see a fainter shading. This shading shows that there is some bass reinforcing going on there although not as much as in the thick pressure zone at the front wall, marked by the dark shaded area. To wit -- if I placed my speaker at the half room length and moved it towards the front wall, the bass will go from thin and progressively get fuller in the light shaded zone to nice and full in the thick pressure zone. Zonees will recall Sonic has been over time moving my speakers edging them towards the front wall and now they are about 3 feet away.

c. Why the Subwoofer cannot go behind the speakers -- this is because my speakers are dipoles and the panels are about 3 feet from the front wall. If I use my Janis W-1 subwoofer which is 2 feet square, and I position it 6 inches from the front wall to clear the loosened wall socket, the subwoofer will be six inches from the rear of the panel loudspeaker which I think is too close given that these are dipole speakers. If I am using cone loudspeakers without a bass port on the rear cabinet, the subwoofer box could go behind.

Now Michael -- your views quickly if you will.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Going to grab a bite, then your next.

Sonic

"Michael – have you seen Pressure Zones like this before – where movement towards the centre of the room reduces warmth and bass?"

mg

Usually with harder rooms. But keep in mind the type of speakers you use. I believe they're teaching you alot about your space, keep going

Sonic

Sonic has an inkling that Michael’s prediction of me going back to using a subwoofer might be coming true.  With my present tonal balance I think the balance and connection with the subwoofer to the main system might be much better than earlier attempts.  If I were to bring in a subwoofer, where are some of the places in Sonic's room you would advise me to try placing the box?

mg

I need to get use to the sound of the new speaker setup first.

Sonic

The placements ruled out is any spot behind the loudspeakers because there is now no space.

mg

That's funny because I answered the last question before reading your comment

Sonic

Michael -- help Sonic get this right.  I think we are getting close

mg

Would be kinda fun to hear the sub in either of the rear corners, pulled slightly out from the walls.

Sonic

your views quickly if you will

mg

Yep, I'm getting slower in my old age    Seems like I savor the moments more than the quick tunes I've been famous for doing in the past. I'm in much less of a rush and more settled. Getting there is cool, but I find myself enjoying being there more rewarding these days. I'm sure this reflects in my response time, but it's been a refreshing time to allow myself the pleasure of my music taking even more of my time.

Sonic

While Sonic waits for Michael to reply with his guidance, here are some points to add to my post:

mg

It's been fun to watch you guys on your journeys. Sometimes I'm finding that me hanging back a little allows you guys to master your systems more. I think it helps a ton of folks to read your posts, and love it when you guys bring the rest of us on that ride, never stop, even if it seems I'm not responding fast enough.  

Sonic

a.To explain the Pressure Zone drawing -- the dark shaded area around the perimeter of the room is where Sonic can place the speakers and get good bass.



You'll notice the Zone at the front wall is deep, while those at the sides are narrower. This is intentionally drawn based on what Sonic hears in BOO! testing and listening to music. The Loudspeakers are now placed within the thick zone at the front wall.

mg

This is a big step forward for you learning your room. I spend a lot of time custom creating my environments to make things easier for me to get where I'm going. Once I get well on my way I can almost put the speakers anywhere, and very rarely have to think about things like toe-in. Watching guys fighting rooms, pains me and I wish I was there, but even if I was the thought that you are tackling a room like yours with Maggies takes gutts.

Sonic

b.To explain more of the Pressure Zone drawing -- below the thick pressure zone at the front wall, marked by the dark shaded area, you will see a fainter shading. This shading shows that there is some bass reinforcing going on there although not as much as in the thick pressure zone at the front wall, marked by the dark shaded area. To wit -- if I placed my speaker at the half room length and moved it towards the front wall, the bass will go from thin and progressively get fuller in the light shaded zone to nice and full in the thick pressure zone. Zonees will recall Sonic has been over time moving my speakers edging them towards the front wall and now they are about 3 feet away.

c. Why the Subwoofer cannot go behind the speakers -- this is because my speakers are dipoles and the panels are about 3 feet from the front wall. If I use my Janis W-1 subwoofer which is 2 feet square, and I position it 6 inches from the front wall to clear the loosened wall socket, the subwoofer will be six inches from the rear of the panel loudspeaker which I think is too close given that these are dipole speakers. If I am using cone loudspeakers without a bass port on the rear cabinet, the subwoofer box could go behind.

mg

Honestly, I think your doing just fine. Your now using the room as a variable tool. At this point I'm not tinking better or worse, but instead the power your gaining by treating your space as a tool to use and not a trial to defeat.

Thanks very much for the guidance, Michael

This is useful. The watchword is to get used to the system sound that is new.

Need to ask: Would be kinda fun to hear the sub in either of the rear corners, pulled slightly out from the walls. Michael, do you mean the subwoofer in the corners of the wall behind me/behind the Bookcase wall?

This can be done.

Also Sonic looked at my system again today and there is a way (you know the saying, "where there is a will....") I can get the Janis W-1 into the front corner. Sonic did not think of this earlier.

The speakers are now 20 inches from the side walls. I could move them closer together by 4 to 6 inches a side. If I did this, the Janis W-1 box can fit right in the corner behind and to the outside of the Right panel. But that would mean the FS-PZC near the right corner will have to be pulled forward a couple of feet. Sonic knows that changing the position of the FS-PZCs will in themselves modify the sound. So there is caution required here.

The downside of the rear wall set up (that is if I understand correctly) will involve a very long speaker cable that runs under the carpet and to the rear corner. It is easy to do though Sonic would have difficulty suspending such a length of cable and it may have to run on the floor which affects the sound too.

Now Sonic is assuming that moving the speakers closer together/away from the side walls will incur no loss of bass and weight because I have discovered a good, thick pressure zone in this room and placed my speakers, the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs, there.

If that is the case Michael, and no bass is lost with a setting further from the side walls, shall I first try placing the subwoofer in the Front right corner behind and outside the loudspeaker and if that fails, try the rear corner?

Sonic