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 Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study

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PostSubject: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:01 am



Over the last few years I've become more active on audiophile forums as well as my usual professional audio forums. During this time I've become aware of something that has struck me as odd. You would think that a hobby such as listening to music listeners would engage in sharing what they are and have experienced in a realistic and truthful manor. After all what's there to be dishonest about when it comes to the enjoyment of music? I have found however that this is not the case in HEA (High End Audio) at all. HEA has created it's own niche and along with this it's own set of rules that are based on concepts and ideas that are far from reality. In HEA technical myth creating is an art that wouldn't be accepted or even allowed in other fields, but because this is a hobby that has no standards or accountability it runs wild with the imaginations of whoever wishes to present falsehoods as if they were fact. Often times who speaks the loudest and the most wins out over actually "doing" and finding out. This has cause HEA to be in decline both as a credible hobby and in numbers of participants. While the audiophile population is growing faster than ever the more expensive HEA marketplace is in a freefall especially in the United States. A large part of this is due to the lack of ethics that blanket the forums that were once trusted sources of advice.

I've made posts and threads to fellowship together with members on some of these forums and after a few short posts I would find myself in the middle of controversy, and not just controversy, but all out heated battles. I've been the nice guy, historian, save the hobby poster boy, stern voice of authority and several other MGs to try to find a way to present the reality of what is happening inside of our hobby, but somehow the threads all end in a crash and burn with one common theme. With some of these forums, and magazines I've talked with the head honchos about the ethics and got back responses from we don't care to me being sworn to silence while they unloaded their true feelings. All of my requests were also met with the same conclusion, HEA is on the decline and there is little that can be done about it. I disagree, I believe there is something that can be done and maybe several things but does HEA have the courage and will to do what is needed?  

There was a time in the early 90's when this same question of ethics came up. I recall sitting in a meeting of the HEA leaders asking what to do to raise the numbers on show attendance. I raise my hand and when called on I was introduced and I began to give my answer "we need more real time demos". Our shows are good but we need a HEA reference facility that allows for empirical and any other kinds of testing desired to be done so we can create standards and have accountability. I was quickly brushed off with the exception of a few who were open to the idea, but warned me that the marketing cards were already in play with a few manufacturers/reviewers. At the next HEA conference I could see more clearly the plan put into action. It wasn't about sound at all but marketing perceptions. I was asked by several to join their team because RoomTune was a hot ticket, but I opted for sound over the talk. It was like I could see the dividing lines being drawn between my friends and I wanted no part of it. It was IMO the beginning of the end.

It was the beginning of "Talk without the walk".


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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:51 am

After a couple of my own go rounds on the topic and after my attempts at getting the point across, I've decided to make a case study on the difference between the Talker and the Walker. I've wiped the slate clean by deleting some of my threads on particular audio forums (I previously posted on TuneLand) because I believe the study needs to be bigger than the day to day internet trolling issues. I will still use examples taken from forums but I don't want to be as personally involved or bring that bad karma over to the pages of TuneLand from any place that might be wanting to sow bad seeds. Instead there's an interesting story about the internet personalities that needs to be told, along with how it affects the HEA hobby.

What is an Audiophile?

"Audiophile values may be applied at all stages of music reproduction: the initial audio recording, the production process, and the playback, which is usually in a home setting. A key goal of audiophiles is to capture the experience of a live musical performance in a room with good acoustics, and reproduce it at home."

Right off the batt the definition of the Audiophile suggest there are different stages and values involved. The goal, to capture the experience and reproduce it (play it back). Some recordings are as stated "a live musical performance" (concert) or a live recording (studio) and then there is the electronically created. Most recordings contain both live and electronic parts. In fact even a live concert recording goes through an electronic process so there is no true live reference to be made except for space. By space I'm referring to the real space and real size of any recording. Recordings are not that smallish soundstage box you listen to in front of you. That box is created by us placing our speakers in front of us and having limited use of our playback rooms. The recording itself is as the actual space being used, plus the electronic effect. The electronic effect is a 360 view of the signal being created.

At this point it might be a good idea to listen to your in-room setup, your headphones and your car stereo with the same recording. Your going to notice that all 3 show you something the others don't. If you were to add the sound of all 3 together chances are you would be listening to 10%-40% of the real recorded space. There's much more on the recording than you are playing back. How do you prove this fact, go measure the physical size of a recording. HEA audiophiles many times will have debates over what is real and what isn't when there is no need. All recordings have a physical size to them and often here on TuneLand we actually measure these sizes. Likewise as I or any engineer makes a recording it is not hard to measure the rooms used along with the mic patterns and applications to give a good idea of what kind of space we are listening to.

Your not an engineer, no problem. Take an evening or weekend and go to your local Guitar Center or Sam Ash and have them play a drum set for you and listen to how the cymbals and drums react in different size rooms. Do the same with other percussion and other instruments. They can even do a recording and playback for you if you say please. After you leave the store play your car and at home play your headphones and in-room stereo. This will start to give you an idea for real space and real size. Now do your first test. Put on a recording (any recording) and play some cymbals and drums. Do they respond the same as when you were at the store?



Referencing music both live and recorded is part of being an audiophile. Many questions a listener may have can be answered simply by the act of doing. This is what I call "walking". Debates on HEA forums many times happens because the people involved don't "Do" the empirical research it takes to substantiate the facts. Hobbyist and manufacturers alike often fall into this category.


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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:11 am




Here is one of the threads I posted on the HEA (Audiogon) forum.
(the original post)

"This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite"



As of right now 6/18/2018 there are over 23,000 views and over 1,200 posts. You would think "how is that possible in such a short time". What could there possibly be in this OP that could stimulate that many responses? To start let me pull this from the OP "I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking." The thread "Talk but not walk" on Audiogon hit a nerve so deep that the internet trolls came running to start the disrupting immediately. This was instantly a red flag that many who were responding were definitely not audiophile walkers. You could tell the posts from people who actively involved in doing the hobby of listening at a higher level of engagement by their internet body language. It was easy to notice the contentment by their tone and choices of words. And then, as sharp as a knife, you could see those filled with the typical signs of internet trolling.

"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion, often for the troll's amusement."

You would think the last place to find angry trolls, bent on disrupting the topics, would be on a forum about music, and more, a forum that claims to be of an advanced nature of listening. But the thread "Talk but not walk" shows a hobby quite different from the real hobby of listening to music. Which brings me to the next obvious point "who sows discord".

There has always been a weird undertone to HEA that bugged me. Call it sowing bad seeds, but from the time I got into HEA I noticed this strange inferiority complex that so many of the members of this portion of the audiophile hobby have, that trickles from the top down, or what has been perceived the top down. Many music enthusiast look at HEA as a cult. Kind of a renegade group of hobbyist who have run off from the norms and truths of audio and created their own clan based on myths, fake measurements and theory building leading to no where. HEA seemed like a hobby on a continuum spin cycle setting never running out of quarters and it still has that feeling today. As one reads the thread I posted on Audiogon it's easy to see this cycle in motion.

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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:38 am





In 2004 I finally got around to starting my own audio forum. Before that I barely knew how to even make a post and would dictate my writing to others and they would make the posts for me. As you can tell I'm not so great at writing but have found it useful for documenting the tuning story and some of my personal history as well. Some people are very good at keeping track of their personal pictures and such but I never did. That changed when I became a designer in HEA. From 1989 on pictures and words took on new meaning to me. Before HEA I was never questioned as to proving my past. I showed up, had fun doing my gig, and moved on to the next gig. Within HEA though there's that weird inferiority thing I mentioned earlier almost as if the participants weren't who they said they were. With some of these people the more they try to prove they have something going on or did do, the more they smell fake. What's worse is they want you to also be fake. These folks appeared on the "Talk and not walk" thread and to many of us came across as fake right from the first couple of posts they made. How can you spot these types? It's pretty easy, they always try to smother the writers who have real content to share. We can refresh ourselves by reading the definition of the internet troll and see these tactics being used in well over half the posts that were made in the thread I've pointed to. What I found particularly interesting is when they attempted to troll me they acted like my past didn't exist and challenged me to prove I was who I was, which was super strange let me tell you. At first I felt like I should give them a list of credits and reviews and then it dawned on me "you've been trolled MG" Laughing I'll admit internet trolls can sneak in and get you going if you take them personally. Laughing They had me looking through pictures of myself so I could prove my own existence Smile . That's pretty heady if you think about it. And that was with me, imagine the reader who doesn't know me from Adam? By the time the trolls have gotten into their brain who knows what the reader thinks about me or any other person or topic. The trolls on that forum even went as far as to warn readers not to come check out TuneLand "They're a cult" they screamed, which I find funny because that's exactly how many audiophile's view HEA. So why is it they didn't want readers to visit here? The answer to that one is simple. They don't want people to come here, because here is where we "walk" the hobby.

here's an example

On these different forums that get infected with audio internet trolling the trolls get into this "proof" mode to try discredit anyone they feel is a personal threat to their own knowledge. It's all talk of course or these guys would have their own forums instead of using others' to stake their claims. There were a couple of challenges made to me personally and others suggesting we (the Tunees) are not doers ourselves. They said all sorts of things about our test sites and or even the lack of test sites, however most of these trolls have got to be aware that I and TuneLand have thousands of pictures showing our "proof". No doubt the trolls reading this will try to marginalize these documented accounts, but the facts are I have pictures of "doing" enough to fill a small library. And these are only a few. So much easier to store pictures these days.

Back on point, on the thread "talk and not walk" the discussion came around to audio feet. Of course it did, you have the guys from audiopoint trying to sell their knowledge and cones, you have Geoff who uses springs as isolation devices and you have me with the many tools I use to tune with. You also have on lookers and those who are trying to do their trolling. You'll read how one guy believes this and the other guy believes that and then you have the Tunees actually "doing" the listening and stating what we are experiencing. Everything could and should go nicely if there is a little show & tell, right? Along with the comments comes as many digs as the moderators will allow before canning any post that goes too far. You can see some of the posters testing the pages to see how far they can troll before getting deleted, many posts do get deleted BTW. And then comes the "he never did that" "he was never there" statements and the veiled threats and conspiracy theories and yada yada yada typical trolled thread. All fake and all useless, but it now becomes a deeper test of credibility and one thing about trolls they will kick and scream to avoid letting the truth be known. In my case I read the comments about springs vs cones vs wood and I naturally think "Do". It's a thread about why fake it so I say why fake it. Doing for me is the easiest part of my life, also the most fun. A few pictures showing me doing Springs, Cones and Tuning Blocks.



You'll also notice I shared some pictures of my Tunable Studios and Halls, along with some of my own private Tunable Rooms and some from other Tunees. How many Tunable Rooms have I done? If you count the ones in audio stores probably a little over a hundred. How many RoomTune clients are there? I have no idea. I know in the first 3 years there was over 50,000 (I think) after that stopped counting and no clue. So MGA/RoomTune is a modest contributor to HEA, but when it comes to "Walking" audio, that is where I do what I do and not many talkers are going to fool me. How far back does my musical walking go? Mid 70's is when I did my first major tour.


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PostSubject: forum trolls   Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:34 pm

It's too bad that these trolls who inhabit almost all the forums (except at Tuneland!) want to argue with you about what you "say" and never about what you do!
My suggestion, if you don't mind, is to invite them all to see and "hear" what you do! Otherwise, it's hardly worth engaging with any of them...

FWIW
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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:50 am

Hi Chris

So good to see you! I'm glad you stopped by. I learned much from the Stereophile threads and in many ways the Audiogon thread (threads) are a repeat performance as far as the trolls' MO. I also learned much from you as a Troll Buster (which you were amazing at btw). On the Stereophile threads my thought was "why is this happening", how can grown people act this way? On the Audiogon forum visit I realized that internet trolling is a hobby all on it's own almost from the first troll's post. The difference is this time around I have no emotional attachment to the trolling, I'm not trying to figure out why people troll. There's a couple of differences between the 2 forums (Audiogon & Stereophile) that I have noticed that sticks out to me. The first one is Stereophile's John A is a troll enabler. John does not play a neutral roll in the way he moderate's his forum vs Audiogon who takes the time to go by their report post request and makes a more unbiased decision. The other difference that I've noticed is similar, but more of a statement about John A himself. I use to cut John a lot of slack when it came to his opinions about certain products and designers. I can no longer truthfully say that John has no agenda at play. That's ok with me, it's just something that is obvious. I haven't seen those same types of biases on Audiogon during this last short time there. I'm not saying they are not there, I just haven't seen them.

With so many internet trolls infecting the HEA forums I'm sure it plays a big part in the hobby's decline. Trolling is a weird phenomenon that has shaped society and maybe someday people will look back and study how trolling may have been prevented or at least marginalized. Kind of like a troll record that follows internet trolls around flagging them as they come to forums (a forum offender).

Anyway, your role in keeping forums aware has made a difference in my life and I'm sure others. If there were a team of Troll Busters that monitored forums the way you did Stereophile, I doubt there would be many internet trolls in HEA. I don't know if you still do this or not but it was very impressive to watch. And of course it's great to also have you as part of the tuning family, a double blessing!

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PostSubject: trolls   Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:14 pm

Trolls have no desire for intelligent, civil discourse and are generally quite rude! I figured that I might as well take them on as they contribute nothing to the audio community. What's most interesting to me is trying to understand how these people think. I suppose that I look at their words and how they say things in a way that's similar to how you look at a room and you can assess how it will sound...
I've been a Stereophile subscriber for a long time, and I still enjoy reading the equipment and music reviews, industry information, new technology, and the interviews, but since coming across information about you and what you do, I realize what an "audio oasis" you've created for those who believe that reproducing and enjoying recorded "music" is more than just passing a signal through wires!
What you do Michael is much appreciated!
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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:46 pm

Thanks Chris!

I'm glad the "audio oasis" vibe comes across. It's always nice to get that sense of someone's listening system when on TuneLand. When I think of each person here their system is painted in my mind and it feels like I'm sitting with them at their place and the music is playing.

I'm hoping as people visit from Audiogon and Stereophile (and other forums) years from now they get that audio family feeling. Obviously the internet trolls will always do everything they can to paint a different picture but you can't beat the Vibe all of you bring to these pages.

have a great weekend!

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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:48 pm

The question was asked "is that Audio Research" ? Yes



Speaking of "audio oasis", this is Tj's Tunable Room and system.


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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:27 am

A fella from the Agon thread posts this.

"One more step in this famous "walking" business. NAD C-350 amplifier in a like-new condition (at least visually and, from what I can remember, acoustically). Screwdriver. A few screws. Magical "freeing of the signal" by taking the cover off. Stayed the same except for the questionable looks of otherwise also not the prettiest industrial design piece. True, I skipped cutting the plug off and sticking wires in the outlet, but I did "walk", maybe "crawled". Try it yourself. It was easy. Make sure you keep the screws. You will need them."


picture of a NAD c 350

More like a very tiny baby step and obviously the hints of trolling to the sarcastic side, but that's ok. Now if Glupson (the poster) was doing this for real he would post pictures of his whole system so we could "see" him doing instead of just giving this brief "I tried it troll".

The question is, what makes someone like Glupson do this ultra limited post? He can look around TuneLand and see the process being done in real time and with many listeners eager to start the journey but with Glupson he makes the statement "Make sure you keep the screws. You will need them" as if he did something that suddenly would qualify him as a walker.

Here are some common sense moves toward setting the signal free, nothing magical just physics and mechanics.

questions for the equipment owners

steps to freeing the signal

Don't forget, after snipping ties gently spread the wires apart from each other. Settling time on this move is 24 plus hours so keep music on.

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PostSubject: No trolls!   Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:20 pm

I don't think you'll ever get trolls like Prof or this guy to your site here... Once you understand what's happening with the "signal", and make changes to the equipment and room accordingly, you'll never "unhear" it!
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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:17 am

Hi Chris

It's interesting as more readers are looking at the thread here as well as on Audiogon how the audio trolls have been trying to paint a picture that doesn't exist with even more vigor. Of course the more people do read the easier it is to see there is definitely a divide between the way real listeners discern, react and respond that is far different than someone who is not an active participant in the hobby of advanced listening practices.

"you'll never "unhear" it!" is a very good description!

These audio trolls (seems to be the name that has stuck) have the time to talk on forum threads yet don't (by their own accounting) know what the audio signal is and how it works in relationship to the "audio chain". They know how to raise their voices yet fail in the area of exploring the audio signal with any real conviction. What over 25 pages of talking and finally one guy turns a few screws to only quickly re-screw them Laughing and then makes a "claimed result".

I personally haven't heard of a lot of people who can't hear results when making changes in their audio system. I also don't know many folks who are not interested in taking their systems a little further down the path of making the signal more to their liking. Many listeners in the hobby make swap outs of components and hear the difference but somehow can't bring themselves to the place of figuring out how or why this happens.

on the flip side

I am receiving emails from those who are actually "doing" (walking) some experiments with their systems and getting results that are helping them understand what their systems are doing and how they can have more control over the sound, and that to me is the success of the thread on Audiogon and was the success on Stereophile.

I'm super happy you have joined this thread, Chris study

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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:50 pm

Questions of testing methods from the Audiogon poster "prof". Who Question Never mind study

"What we are discussing are technical claims made on behalf of the type of tweaks MG suggests"

"Why then does Michael immediately become allergic to evidence when asked for something like measured changes in a signal before and after such tweaks to capacitors? Or in this case, between an amplifiers with a case on or off?"

Actually I love these types of questions and from time to time as I get the chance setting up a testing ground is exactly what the doctor orders as in the case with a review done by Widescreen Review.

Here's the archived review http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116



It's very odd indeed that someone like prof or glupson or any audio troll wouldn't do their homework before making false (fake) statements about someone. And I have to say so unbalanced to think that they haven't the ability to use their own ears as the testing ground Rolling Eyes for proof. So far they have both shown the inability to hear what almost everyone else who does these simple tunes have. The audio press has been talking about the advanced listening methods of tuning in the HEA hobby for back to at least the late 80's. The proving ground of Tunable Audio has been walked on for many years. As can be read it has been used to shape the hobby from many points of view, so you have to wonder who some of these people really are.



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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:29 pm

I wanted to put this note up of thanks for your emails. Some of your stories in dealing with some of these trolls have been pretty funny. You've made me smile more than a few times.

I also have to take my hat off again to the Audiogon moderators. I would have banned this behavior from TuneLand a long time ago.

I personally haven't taken the time to read back through other threads but the emails have told me that this is pretty much the behavior throughout the forum where these particular guys land "same guys different threads". I was also sent a link to read about these guys

http://amasci.com/weird/flamer.html

There's a lot of this that is true about the trolls on the audio forum thread I'm referencing.

"3. Amoral: flamers believe that insults, verbal abuse, character attacks, lies, and even death threats are perfectly acceptable behavior once "justified." Zero empathy, Zero compassion: totally blind to the pain that our behavior brings to others. Many of us grew up in a world without love, hence love has no place in our mental toolkit. We may even have a psychopath streak, where the very existence of any other beings with feelings is not really real to us. If flamers still have a tiny sensitivity to others' pain, we crush it with words like: "she deserved it!", or, "well, they started it!" If you honestly complain to flamers, expect our response to be "oh, you're so sensitive," or "You're Not Hurt!", said with sneering contempt."

I've had threats handed to me by one of the trolls and the same one just posted "jf47t, you are weak really weak..."

It almost is hard to imagine this level of hostility on a forum about music of all places. However now that the members of Audiogon are directing me to these links I do see what they are saying.

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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:13 am

While waiting for a 15 "White" to cure a little so I can listen to it I've read more of the comments from these guys (a company that sells brass cones) who has been feverishly trolling away on the audiogon thread. For some history I think I mentioned earlier, this happens to be a fella who worked for me for 9 months (Hello 9 Months) and then we let him go for the same weirdness that has been displayed from him on the pages of Audiogon (no mystery here right Laughing Question ). It doesn't make much sense to not be able to make comments without getting upset and ending up getting your posts deleted. Instead of them (seems like his whole company is like this) saying they were sorry and they want to try again, only being civil this time, they wanted others to develop "thicker skins" Laughing . But seriously this behavior has been happening over pages with them having no self control at all. Let me just say this about this guy or anyone as far as that goes. If you get upset and start trolling internet forums and end up having your posts deleted, is that any different from committing the same actions and getting yourself fired from work? I don't see there being much of a difference.

the very weird part is

This points to my last post here about the disorders internet trolls have and aren't able to deal with. No sweat to me I fired him 20 years ago and wish him and his life well. However I believe him having explosions on public forums is him painting a reputation of him, his company and associates as a type of self portrait. I guess it's ok for him to constantly demand that others thicken up their skins before engaging with him, but I personally don't see real listeners as being hostile people. To me that's sort of the opposite of a content person. But everyone has the right to spread their own karma and he is certainly spreading his. Who knows maybe pretending your some kind of tough guy on a public forum is appealing to some folks. I call it one step away from a restraining order.

I do have good news though. It's now time for me to go listen to some Amy Winehouse.



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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:14 am

Oh this is kind of funny too for those who have been following the thread on Agon. I'm not going to mention this on there but follow me on this. Who ever posted this...

"Example: This product took us twenty years to bring to market where sales are expanding rapidly across the globe. This product is affixed to a musical instrument expands the sonic, increases stage presence and volume without affecting the character or signature of the instrument. Those accomplishments probably mean nothing to you guys but that’s OK. I would not expect you to comprehend our accomplishments as you primarily reside in the empirical world of experimentation."

here's why this is funny

The tool they are mentioning for the bottom of instruments started at RoomTune. Shoot I remember talking to the guy from San Francisco (I believe that's where he was) myself. I believe his name was David but I could be wrong, it was a long time ago. But more interesting and odd is the statement....

"This product is affixed to a musical instrument expands the sonic, increases stage presence and volume without affecting the character or signature of the instrument."

….if the sound changed "expands the sonic, increases stage presence and volume" it has made an effect.

Effect: cause (something) to happen

I think maybe someone needs to let go of MGA. Honestly some of these guys try so hard to run circles around others they end up running circles around their own lack of knowledge and credibility. Trying to be smarter than the next guy is a sure way of proving yourself stupid.

Does it seem weird to you guys that this guy is following me around on threads 20 years after me dismissing him? Is that not somehow terribly odd? Shocked if I end up coming up missing can someone please turn this thread in to the authorities affraid As Geoff on the thread would say "stalker alert".


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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:25 am

This is kind of interesting I thought. Because the "Talk but not walk" thread has put more TuneLand articles up on search engines this one popped up and I clicked on it. I'll post pics from that time as well.



PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Audiogon Interviews Michael Green

"Michael Green Audio is now an official Category Sponsor of the Accessories category on AUDIOGON .

To introduce Michael Green Audio to the Audiogon community, Audiogon interviewed Michael for its members. Michael Green Audio has had a long working relationship with Audiogon, and we're looking forward to it continuing into the future.

HERE'S THE INTERVIEW:


Meet Michael Green Audio
Company Michael Green Audio
Founder Michael Green
Location Las Vegas, Nevada



Audiogon interviews Michael Green of Michael Green Audio

A) Tell me about your company?

MG) Michael Green Audio started in 1981 as a high-end stereo store in Georgia. Michael Green Audio carried many high-end brands, and we were starting to develop our own specialty products designed to aid in the performance of our stock products. This research center and store were founded by me, Michael Green. At that time, I was an audio and acoustical recording engineer for both live and recorded TV and music performances.

A) How did you choose this business?

MG) The entertainment business was the only business I was ever in. I grew up in a musical family and was playing professionally at the age of 13. At the age of 16, I was already on tour as a performer and engineer. I was always around music and TV, learning as much as possible about the trade. My main interest though was the sound.

A) You've chosen to use your name for the company. How did you come to that decision?

MG) I never cared too much about the company name personally, but the music industry kept pushing me, Michael Green, as the key front man name. RoomTune was the closest name to become known on its own, but press and users always referred to the products as Michael Green products. At this time, people wanted a person to fix their sound problems and not just another product name. They wanted to feel like someone was working with them on their system.

A) What unique qualifications do you and your company bring to the audiophile community?

MG) My philosophy is not based on tons of solutions and then putting them into an A,B,C,D listing and saying, Good luck. Michael Green Audio looks at the system as a whole. We believe in three separate parts that all work off of each other:

1. Acoustical
2. Mechanical
3. Electrical

We call this the "Audio Trilogy."

A) What is unique about your approach?

MG) Everything that we build is variably tunable, just like a musical instrument. MGA believes, because we all hear differently and that music is a moment, that the only way to truly represent both the listener and the musician is to make everything in the system completely tunable. We even build tunable rooms to listen in.

A) What is needed to keep the audiophile future bright?

MG) Michael Green Audio believes that there is a bright future for high end, if audiophiles choose to take it. The audiophile, at one time, was more adventurous. This was because the hobby was based on doing. On our forum, Tuneland, you hear much about this and what must happen to bring back the industry. On TuneLand, there are quite a few success stories. This is because we believe in the hobby of music first, in front of the hobby of equipment.

I always say, Lets keep it real and lets keep it fun. In other words, Become the master of your own system; don't let it control you.

A) Comment on doing business on the Internet and on the Audiogon experience.

MG) Michael Green Audio has a long history of utilizing the Internet. We have been using the Internet exclusively for the last few years to market our products: acoustical room treatment products such as RoomTunes and Pressure Zone Controllers, tunable free resonant loudspeakers, tunable equipment racks, mechanical transfer/coupling devices, and cables. Currently our approach is using our forum, TuneLand, as a place where audiophiles and music lovers alike can explore and learn to take their system to the next level or put together a system that really is personally suited to each listener. They can experience the listening environment as one of the critical components of their system. We take a wholly positive approach and help them get the most out of their system/room, no matter what.

Michael Green Audio has been with Audiogon for quite a while now and we are looking forward to this new partnership. What Audiogon is doing is helping the Internet reach its potential by the positive approach it is taking in bringing the community together. Audiogon is putting itself in the position to altogether change the face of high end, and audio in general, and it's great to be in on the ground floor. Just imagine, the audio world being linked by sites and forums of all kinds and bringing so many different participants and ideas together."

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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:57 pm



It's so nice to be able to paint a picture by using pictures. There's a big difference between a thread of words and a thread of truth. I find that answering questions about audio comes down to 3 ingredients Words Sight & Audio. The "Words" part of this is like a two edged sword, it can be extremely sharp and to the point or it can be the tool of confusion and deception (in the wrong hands). Since the internet, communication has taken on new meaning. On forums in particular the personalities of forum posters are revealed, or even exposed, as the words pour out onto the pages of threads. In the last couple of years I've compared our forum (TuneLand) with a few other forums to see how we differ. Two of the forums are HEA (high end audio) magazine forums and others are forums that cover different parts of the audio industry. The one I've been talking about most recently is the selling use gear audio forum "Audiogon". When viewing Agon (the company) I see a different presentation than I do the forum. I've talked about that here on this thread and on the Audiogon thread itself. Surprising to me is the fact designers are not encouraged to get involved with the members as compared to forums like Audiocircle, where a select few manufacturers have setup house and built communities inside of the overall umbrella. There are other audio forums that have pulled off the Audiocircle template with success, but not Audiogon. When talking and visiting with Agon in the mid 2000s there was certainly the plain to make the community into a audio togetherness type of interaction but after a few failed kick start attempts the Agon forum remained troll opinion based. Meaning, there are more internet troll typical posts than there are fruitful ones.

The two magazine forums are The Absolute Sound and the Stereophile forums. These magazines are the two founders of the HEA movement. I need to be clear on this. TAS and the Phile were not the original audiophile magazines, they were the first HEA audiophile magazines. There's a difference here that is important. The audiophile hobby is about listening to music, where as the HEA is more about expensive audio gear collecting and chat. The split between Audiophile and HEA happened around the time HEA went with the dogmatism of "discrete" equipment. Meaning getting rid of all the variables except for Plug & Play swapping, a looks change and a volume control. It was basically a marketing move that sold to the same listener over and over again. A reviewing system was put in place that claimed in every issue was the latest greatest product revelation and carefully dismissed last years designing while promoting this years models. Along with this mentality was the guilt buying and selling method, where the reviewer was making the decision for the HEA audiophile. The collision of the internet, discrete HEA, magazine reviewing Gods and the compulsive buyer hit a financial brick wall in the mids 90's when the mom and pop stereo store was forced to compete against internet sales and the big chain entertainment stores. The paradigm shift of HEA happened so quickly the HEA end user could either drop out of the HEA hobby or ride the tide of change. In the US most of the HEA end users dropped out. 95% of the HEA stereo stores went out of business by the year 2004. TAS folded their forum tent a couple of years ago and the Stereophile forum is at a crawl of less posts than TuneLand. The Stereophile forum has had 3 posts in the last 24 hours and all by the same member. We are talking about the two most prominent HEA Magazines' forums.

What is it that made these important forums go under? It's the same thing that is causing the Audiogon forum to loose it's thrust in the mainstream of hobbyist listeners. If you look at the thread again on Agon I'm sure they are trolling up a storm about me or member jf47t or anyone else who comes to them with reality. The talk is absent the walk. Most of the posters on the thread there are more concerned about stirring the anger than enjoying the music. It's like a campaign rally for angry souls who want and need to push away those who come to share. Does it make me upset? No just the opposite. I have seen what the HEA has done to itself, and did to itself, for many years now. Not all, but most of the personalities that are on many of those forums are leftovers from a marketing scheme that has run it's course. The HEA industry marketing was produced to see how many systems can they sale to the same person. For example: recently another thread came up that talked about how many speakers have you owned since 1995. It was like a badge of honor if you flipped speakers often, and some flipped more speakers than some stereo stores. Equipment threads are very much the same. Folks flipping equipment without ever stopping to make the system a "whole". Bring up acoustics and tweaks and watch the holy wrath of the non-discerning listener come out of every haunted closet in the place, and with every trolling attack possible. I'm not sure if Steven King has capitalized on this or not yet, but he should. these are some angry dudes Laughing

So the question comes up then "why do peaceful folks come up and read angry dudes"? Answer: they don't. Most of the peaceful folks have already left the negative audio forums or only occasionally come up and read through tons of internet trolling hoping to run into some good stuff.

When I started TuneLand the very first thing I asked of the site designer was to make it so the forum could be about pictures and words. From there TuneLand turned into ongoing system autobiographies. I LOVE IT cheers There's nothing like experiencing listening through the eyes of the listener them self. Topics are great, nothing wrong with that, but compared to the day to day walk of someone exploring recordings well.... study hard to beat. Folks who write to me about TuneLand always mention how unique it is with a combination of topics, articles and personal listening journeys. TuneLand doesn't get in a rush, it's made from inspiration, unlike many other forums who get this sense of panic about them. That's due to both the compulsive nature being appealed to and also the nervousness of people trying to prove their points with words only. With internet trolls it's even worse because they have the need to repeat themselves as to look like they have relevance because they are the last voice heard. Internet trolls attempt to come at a person from any angle they can find when trying to create discord. They'll commonly even make up situations that are complete fiction just to see if they can get a reaction. On the audiogon thread for example the trolls are desperately trying to create totally false narratives hoping to get someone (anyone) to bit so they are able to continue the trolling. But here's the thing, you can't troll an audio journey. Internet trolls don't have documented audio journeys. Their MO is to tear down and not to build up or continually moving their systems forward.

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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:16 pm

Are you ready for a walking moment?



Talkers have zero idea of what to do with this picture. This setup easily walks all over 99% of the HEA front ends out there. And when the top tuning is applied good luck to the other 1%.

Now if you are an audio troll, you might remove a couple of screws, take off the top plate, listen, throw the screws back in and make your "fake" walking comment on the Agon forum so to look like you did something. This is what actually happened Rolling Eyes Laughing . Trust me I know, pretty stupid stuff and you nor I would have embarrassed ourselves like this on a public forum, but that's internet audio trolls for you.

nope, lets take a real look at the picture



The Magnavox CDP sitting on LTR Tuning Blocks, sitting on a Tuning Platform sitting on LTR Rails. Now that's a serious front end.


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PostSubject: Show them how it sounds...   Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:17 pm

People who are involved in music in any capacity, whether they are musicians, singers, instrument makers, sound engineers, etc. will get it... Anyone with an "ear" for music will hear it. Those who think too much won't.
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PostSubject: Re: Talk but not walk? An Audiophile Forum Case Study   Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:15 pm

That's a great picture of the Magnavox with MGA tuning tools Exclamation My setup looks the same except I use 4 LTR Blocks most of the time.






I like the way you have done this thread Michael. Your keeping it factual and classy.
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