Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

Sonic,

I have been watching your current journey with tune with much interest. You bring up a topic regarding the opacity or dullness of tube amps specifically outlining EL 34 and 300B tube types, and I must concur with what you have heard. I have never been a fan of the 300B tube other than it offered more power. I have compared my little 2.5 watt MR amp which uses a 6EM7 tube to a friend's 300B amp pushing 102 DB horns, and I felt my amp sounded better. Bass and treble were more extended and there did not seem to be the midrange dullness that you describe. I have also used well know US amp makers EL34 based tubed amps with my 60s in the past, but these amps did not stay long in my household as they were overall dull sounding. There was some improvement using KT77 tubes, but overall not satisfying enough to keep my interest.

My current journey with smaller power tubes like EL84 and 7189 seem to be more satisfying. I have been listening to my Eico EL84 amp since early this morning with the Maggie and TT and the overall sound is very, very good! Since I did alittle tube rolling replacing the overly warm Mullard power tubes with some neutral sounding power tubes and mixing neutral sounding 12AU7s with the Mullard AX7s, I am enjoying a very musical but detailed sound. While I have not listened to any big symphonic albums today to look for opacity, you do have my interest. With the 95DB speakers playing today at the high 70s dbs, I have been enjoying some old smooth jazz albums from the 70s and 80s. The bass in my room is by far the best yet using my passive MGD Music Ply sub. I am really looking forward to setting up the tabletop platform with the Merrill TT. Having acquired several wooden headshells, it will be another journey listening to both MC and MM cartridges this year.

"Michael -- when will you be shipping the blocks?"

  

When their ready   

I'm really quite terrible at setting dates. No I'm not talking about when I have to redo somethings that workers don't do right (that's a whole other story   ). I'm speaking of curing.

In my mind I'm always thinking I can cheat natures process but it always bites me in the butt. In the case of these blocks, if I put on another coat or sand while the one before it is still evaporating bad things happen, so I have to let the blocks themselves tell me when they are ready for the next step.

It's tough living in an instant world, but I would rather miss the mark of time over missing the mark of sound. I was going to do a sand and coat a week ago and decided to wait. If there was a way to suspend things so air got to all sides instead of waiting for each side to cure life would be a lot more simple, but in trying to do a few of them too fast I had to back up. I guess anyone could make a wood block    but when it comes to the art of voicing, maybe not everyone can do that so well.

So where we are is they need to speak to me, then a sand, then a coat, then dry, then maybe one more time or maybe not depending on how they sound. Of course keep in mind I don't think they will really come to life until after they age a little.

We are getting close though and they have come a long way, and, I once again have way under charged   , but I think part of the fun for me is turning this into instruments. Picking them up, I'm very surprised at how different they weigh one from another. They certainly are beautiful creatures and won't be a lot longer.

Neil Young

Now you've hit a topic that is of extreme importance.   

Neil is one of those artist that when I dial in almost any of his recordings I sit there and say that's my favorite. I guess I'm a sucker for his story telling and get lost in the moment as if each song is the only one he has ever done.

So of course you have to talk about Harvest and Gold Rush, but for me I have to think of Neil as two people, electric Neil an acoustic Neil. When I'm in acoustic Neil mode I have to reach for Comes a Time so I can hear him and Nicolette Larsen. Then you have Hawks & Doves or Treasure if you like his back porch stuff. Old Ways is great country.

Silver and Gold, incredible! One of my favs. I like to listen to Harvest and S & G back to back.

On the electric side Are You Passionate is right up there, and "fork" is also pretty hot.

Hi Garp

Appreciate your comments on my sense of the internal dullness.

Sonic's experiment with the 300B has ended - due to one of two driver 6SL7 tubes failing on me (one of two driving the 300B triodes). I saw one 6SL7 flickering when listening to music and I powered down for safety and the next day, the amp was kaput on restart. This 6SL7 had less than 50 hrs playing time in my amp and it failed.

So back to the transistor amp. A more familiar sound.

Anyway, I had time this weekend to listen to a good span of musick. Among what I played were:

a. Mozart and Weber Clarinet Quintets in A and b-flat -- G de Peyer and the Melos Quartet of London (EMI LP)

b. Michel Richard Delalande -- Supper Music for the King (Louis XIV) -- Jean Francois Paillart cond. (Erato Mono LP)

c. Locatelli Violin Sonatas Op 6-- Elizabeth Wallfisch et all (Hyperion CD)

d. Pennywhistlers -- Folksongs from Eastern Europe (Nonesuch LP)

e. Handel -- harp concerto, violin sonata with continuo, blockflote sonata with continuo and clavecin concerto (Heliodor LP, Karl Richter et al)

f. Linda Ronstadt -- Prisoner in Disguise

On Michael's thoughts on Neil Young, Sonic's favourites are Everybody Knows this is Nowhere, After the Goldrush, Time Fades Away, Tonight's the Night and Silver and Gold. I have a Video DVD of Neil doing and acoustic concert of musick from Silver and Gold -- the first track, Looking Forward is magical!

Sonic

Hi Zonees

More: I find recordings varying a lot from one another and this is particularly noticeable with LPs. CDs too but less obvious -- maybe most are sub-par and homogenisede?

The biggest difference Sonic finds is in perspective -- these can go from very in your face to just right to distant and small.

The frequency balance is next but often the more distant the perspective is, the more the upper mids and highs are smoothed or rolled off (or due to this).

The bass can vary from thin to boomy with all sorts of extension.

Less problems with soundstage width. A number of LPs and a few CDs give a very wide beyond the room walls expanse. But there are those with small on-speaker pan potted images but more and more even when images are pan potted onto the speakers, Sonic's system is giving width and depth even of a single image so we don get this tiny point image on the MG1.5QR panels.

Mono can sound nice and they have a width and height of their own, in their own way.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

It's nice that you list the music. It says a lot about your listening patterns. It also gets me back to classical, which is all about the room being filled with acoustical sound. It's also in some ways the easiest music to record.

Neil is one of those artist that I go on fest with. I'll have a Neilfest that will last for months it seems and during that time think I fall inlove with a new favorite about every 3rd day. I'm not sure there's such thing as a bad Neil Young recording. BTW do you like "unplugged". I think it's wonderful.

Time and Everybody I will listen to back to back as well. They pair up nicely.

"Appreciate your comments on my sense of the internal dullness.

Sonic's experiment with the 300B has ended - due to one of two driver 6SL7 tubes failing on me (one of two driving the 300B triodes). I saw one 6SL7 flickering when listening to music and I powered down for safety and the next day, the amp was kaput on restart. This 6SL7 had less than 50 hrs playing time in my amp and it failed. "

I don't talk about tubes much, or tables much as far as that goes. This is probably because, one) I don't have enough time, and 2) if one commits to these worlds in my book you really have to commit and study design. Some of this design is chassis design. For me it is very rare that you will see me enjoy these heavy plated common looking tube product chassis for long.

These are sound killers



They create a milky type cloud around the signal that drives me nuts   

Most tube amps are way Way WAY over built, and the benifits of the tube become extremely discolored.

It's shocking to me that a design bassed on microphonics has so many applicants that have no idea what microphonics are, and how to use or dispell them. It's an art form that is extremely misused in the audio field. And what's scary to me is how easy it is to hear when the vibrations are not intune with tube amps.

Again this is why I like to follow tube amp paths like the one "garp" is on. Look at the type of designs he is drawn to. Big difference between the magic of tubes and the misunderstanding of them. Garp finds the music inside of the design through listening to how much they open up as opposed to closing in. This is major and a part of the hobby so many miss.

Tube sound can be bliss or bust. Sonic I wouldn't necessarily give up on tubes if you like them, but maybe spend time looking at build vs performance and see if you can unlock the door of microphonics. Microphonics is just another form of amplifying and if controlled and not killed can be a real gem.

Hi Zonees

Getting into Tubes is another world and an audio hobby by itself. Sonic thinks this is not where I want to go. I got my hands full with the Tune as it is and now about to wrestle with the sound of different metal chassis weights.

I am waiting for the Low Tone Redwood blocks from Michael to see if they open a new frontier that will determine how Sonic will progress with the Tune. For now I am enjoying the analog and working to get a level of playback quality that justifies the record collection that I have recently amassed (in a rather short time too!)

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

This is the step up that Sonic was hinting at – I have changed my Audio Technica AT LP120 turntable for something much better.  Here it is:



It’s the Rega P5 with the RB700 arm. Yes, this is second hand but Rega TTs are exceptionally robust and can survive for decades just like the rugged EMTs and Garrards. Much of the decision why Sonic bought it and not the newer P6 is because of the great RB700 arm.  Here we have the Shure M97xE tracking at 1.25 gms with an antiskate force of 1 gm.

Sonic is also using the PSU which regulates the speed and brings the 33.3 rpm speed almost spot on and 45 rpm just a tad fast according to Stereophile’s test report.



Sonic played Fleetwood Mac and the first impression was a HUGE Bass, extended highs far beyond the supposed roll-off above 10kHz that the Shure M97xE is supposed to display even when loaded correctly to 47 KOhms and 270 pFs. In the first two hours of playing records, the bass was very deep and controlled, the sound rather fast paced, midrange was forward but squeaky!  treble was detailed, sweet and extended. The soundstage in stereo realistic beyond the walls (Telemann on Archiv) or a bit narrow on other records (Green River – CCR)….yet none of the sound was coming from the MG1.5QRs.  The sound is just “here”…hanging in space not related to objects in the room.  This is something promising and Sonic thinks we got a great front end after settling and some tuning.

Sonic might go to a Moving Coil like my dream EMT but let us see.    

After a day of settling the performance of the Rega P5 is coming together and forming into a whole. The midrange is getting dimension and girth in particular pianos (Copland’s Piano Concerto – Copland conducting the Rome Radio Symphony Orchestra/Varese Sarabande).  This turntable gives musick but doesn’t emphasize ticks and pops.  Like all good systems that settle well, tics and pops are turned down and pushed to the extremes of the speaker plane.  Since the musick is happening in the space behind the speakers these noises are outside the music so are less annoying.

The Audio Technica will be moved to another part of my dwelling and will be connected into another system to play mostly 78s and SPs.  Sonic will report on that too more.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Would you describe the difference between the two turntables in reference to the materials used for each?

Greetings Michael

I’ll certainly give you and all Zonees the contrast. But right now, there is something I got to do before the Rega P5 shows its true powers. As I played several records I could hear the sound was closed-in and the midrange less but still squeaky. The reason for this is simple after a quick visual check.

The Shure M97xE is a rather tall cartridge and about 5 mm taller than the reference Rega cartridges the RB700 arm was optimized for at the factory for. So the Shure was noticeably tilted back towards the arm pillar – the VTA is now not 15 to 17 degrees but more like 5 degrees.

This is the cause because I took a record and played it without the 3 mm felt mat, placing it directly on the glass platter. Just that small increase in VTA changed the sound dramatically for the better but there were new problems because playing records directly on the glass platter is not something to be done.

Rule of thumb: VTA too large – bright and hard and thin sound. VTA too shallow (like now) – dull, closed-in sound.

Sonic just needs to raise the arm pillar and we are there. Then we can draw comparisons that make sense.
If this were a dream, I am sort of in a room where FS PZCs have been installed in the right spots but a couple of them have been installed with the wood faces to the walls and the absorptive sides facing into the room. Sonic goes to turn them around but finds they are bolted to the floor and I need a special wrench to undo the bolts.

You get the feeling…..the Rega RB700 arm cannot be adjusted for pillar height without having to unbolt it, remove it from the Table and add a shim device, reassemble and reset the cartridge. This project being entered into just before the Lunar New Year holidays means all the stores closed these few days and I don’t have the right tools to release the arm or the shim device.

I’ll have to wait for the shops to reopen this week and everybody to sober up before buying the shim device and have a specialist-tech do the set up. Sonic is not about to work on something so new and one I am unfamiliar with. Might get a new cartridge and not shim…lets see.

The comparison will be something. The cardinal features of Roy Gandy’s (Rega boss) turntables are low mass rigid structures where resonances are dispersed and relative motion controlled.

This compared to the Audio Technica AT LP120 is a world apart. The LP120 is a two part plastic box with the direct drive motor mounted on the top with the arm and all the switches and electronic gear. The arm is reasonably good and smooth but the plastic plinth noticeably rattles while the Rega is solid and rigid and the feel of the RB700 arm is good. Both tables decouple vibrations using elastomer damping feet. Three in the case of Rega and four under the Audio Technica AT LP120.

The Rega costs about 5 times the Audio Technica, and the AT LP120 gives you the excellent AT95E cartridge in the price while all you get is four wires hanging off the end of the RB700 new. Get a cartridge that is of comparable quality to the P5 and owners I know have gone 12x times the price of the AT LP120.

So the Audio Technica AT LP120 is very good value for money. It sounds surprisingly good and has served Sonic flawlessly in the main system for more than a year being already able to show where analog outshines digital. Good job Audio Technica   

And the AT LP120 has started playing 78s in another of my systems (with the Stanton 500 cartridge) and doing nicely.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

I have got the Rega shim device which allows a Rega arm with three-point mounting to be shimmed 2,4, 6 or 8 mm to optimize VTA.

When I mounted the Shure M97xE to the RB700 arm with no shims there was a pronounced backward tilt, the sound was dull and shrunken. Then testing the turntable without the mat increased the VTA and gave an improvement showing an increase was required.

So with the shim device, Sonic used a 4mm setting.



Getting somewhere.  There is my Paul Hindemith LP (Octet and Viola solo sonata) that has a pressing flaw.  The Shure M97xE in the Audio Technica arm tracked the flaw with just a pop.  With the Rega in the too low VTA setting, the cartridge kept skipping at that point and the record could play no further.

With the 4mm shim, the Shure M97eE sailed through the pressing flaw with a barely audible pop   

Then Sonic tried a 6 mm setting and the sound opened up, bass deepened and midrange was no longer recessed     Some setting up is still required and Sonic is learning my way round the turntable.  Ticks and pops are very well controlled with the Rega arm and table, to the point that they are separate from the musick so no longer jar.  And the Audio Technica AT LP120 was pretty good in this aspect.

More as we go along.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

Some more thoughts following Sonic’s post on Bill333’s thread.

We must should see that the Tune is a journey that people are free to come and go at any point on the path. Different listeners, due to their individual situations may just scratch the surface of the Tune, others delve further, or very small umber of individuals become anther Hiend1.

I know of some who use Michael’s Corner Tunes with a small number of Tune Strips and some EchoTunes and found happiness.

Other like Sonic have gone further. Each step involves a cutting away of audiophile thinking and accepting some inconvenience in return for the full musick.

So at the start, an audiophile my just buy some pillow products from Michael and apply them and be happy. That might be the extent of their involvement with the Tune. Some go further than this, much further.

So at first, we Tune our Rooms.

Then we Tune our systems

In the end, the Tune becomes our System and it Tunes us.

Sonic

Hi Michael

Is there a carpet/rug that you recommend for use in tuned rooms? That is a carpet that has no damping or sound killing effects? I noticed one in your room in front of the listening chair in an old picture and Bill333 has one in his wooden room.

Is it something from Ikea? Sonic may need a carpet because some wires may need to run across the room from some gear I plan to place near my listening chair.

Let me know...

Sonic

Thanks Bill333 for information on the mats I might use.

This last week Sonic been experimenting with cartridge alignment and found that just setting the cartridge with one of those cards with the hole for the spindle and the two null points then adjusting things so the cantilever is set to zero error at the two points without taking account overhang can put alignment a long distance from correct to the classic geometries like Baerwald or Stevenson.

I aligned my Shure M97xE spot on with the card then checked with a Dr Feickert protractor (Baerwald setting) and the overhang was short by 3 mm which a long way off in the micro world of vinyl. When the overhang was optimized, and the cantilever at zero error at the two points, the cartridge was a tiny bit turned inwards from the parallel in the headshell of the Rega RB700.

The improvement in sound quality in all aspects was significant.

So the card with two null points is not enough. In fact misleading. We need to take account overhang and effective length into the equation which is impossible with just the card. Protractors like the Dr Feickert and the Dennesen (if that can be found) are the things for the job.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

After getting an understanding of how far ahead in musicality and clarity a Baerwald aligned cartridge can be, Sonic changed cartridge.

I bought an Ortofon 2M Blue. This is a Moving Magnet (2M) cartridge and is second from the bottom in a four cartridge series -- Red, Blue, Bronze, Black.

At a higher price in the Ortofon line-up, there is also a Moving Coil Series also corresponding to Red, Blue, Bronze, Black. After this, prices for the higher Ortofons, particularly those in their own headshells, get rather expensive.

The Blue is very good giving Sonic clear, neutral projected mids and a deep bass. Extended treble too. It tracks at 1.8 gms and Sonic loaded it to 150 pFs and 47 kOhms as recommended by Ortofon.

At this point after some burning in, the frequency response and tracking is excellent but the soundstage is a little narrow, mostly constrained in a space bounded by the outer edges of the MG1.5QRs + a foot. With digital sources the width is multiples of feet and yards over this. The tracking of the Ortofon 2M Blue is very good but not as good as the higher-compliance Shure.

There are several reasons why the soundstage is narrowed and Sonic will work on this in next few days till I get a match and exceed digital which Analog could easily do if we did the Tunes up to it. Also Sonic found the 2M Blue rides low and the bottom of the cartridge body is very close to the record surface. For a minute I thought Sonic got a cantilever failure but I checked with the Hi-Fi store about how other Ortofons in the series looked when cued onto the record. The representative here said Sonic's Ortofon is fine. Any Zonees got views on the tracking of the Ortofons?

Sonic

The Ortofon 2M Blue is really good. It tracks well and works with the Rega RB700 arm. Record surface noise is low and not intrusive. Often high levels of ticks and pops may be not just dirt in the grooves (which Rega's Roy Gandy says the stylus will push out of the way) but problems with alignment, arm/cartridge damping and interfacing, pivot friction and such. An unstable arm set up will accentuate noise while a properly set up, well made arm and cartridge will make noise at least tolerable.

Today Sonic had guests who wanted to listen to old Chinese opera LPs/SPs which had been played on generations of changers. After cleaning, the Ortofon and Rega arm and P5 turntable played even the most worst condition records with low noise and surprisingly little distortion though some groove damage could be heard from time to time.

My VTA might be a little high thinks Sonic....

Sonic,

I use the 2m Black on two of my tables and your comments regarding VTA are accurate. If the VTA is not good, you will hear added surface noise.

I really like the 2M black for a deep, wide soundstage with a very neutral presentation. If set up correctly, the 2M black will provide you with natural, deep bass. This cartridge does not ride low in my systems. I suspect you might enjoy the 2M black with classical music, but I enjoy playing all types of music with this cartridge. It very similar in sound to the Maggie CD player in my system with a bit more resolution.

Hi Garp

I'm very happy when I hear you compare the Maggie player to a TT. When changing things underneath it or top tuning sometimes I sit back and go "can't believe how much that reminds me of vinyl".

Greetings Zonees

The 50 pieces of Low Tone Redwood blocks from Michael arrived today -- about 9 days by USPS from when Mr Green sent them to arriving at Sonic's door in Singapore.

I opened the box to inspect the contents and there they were: 50 beautifully finished Redwood blocks. Beautiful the were for sure, very well finished.

Before mounting them anywhere, I just took a number of them and placed them on the floor randomly in the forward of Sonic's room. Sonic had to talk to someone just after I sort of scattered the Low Tone Redwood blocks and when I got back a few minutes later, the sound of the had room changed.

I'll now adjust the scans with more detail: Sonic's voice was deeper and more resonant. A new adventure for certain! Sonic's first after this is to get my Magneplanar 1.5QRs on the blocks.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

Get your Low Tone Redwood!  This stuff is exceptional   

One day on and Sonic is hearing richer harmonics in the viola and cello range from a simple application.

Here are some of the 50 blocks I bought from Michael:



The first application – under the Magnaplanar 1.5QR feet:



The finish of the blocks – each 3½” x 3¼” x 1½” –is very nice too.  Sonic will gradually introduce the blocks under the racks, under FS-PZCs and equipment.  This has got my system moving in a good direction.

Garp -- thank you for your comments.  I checked my cartridge ride height against other Ortofons -- Blue, Bronze and Black in the store and they are about the same. Whew!

Sonic

MG sneaks in to take a peek at the blocks.

  

Wait till they cure a while   

Notes will start coming out of places you didn't know you had.

Sonic is going slow with adding the blocks. But so far there is more girth and weight in the sound though some treble sheen is missing.

Thing is though I am now hearing the shortcomings of the Magneplanar 1.5QRs and the "tune instinct" tells me some moving of the loudspeakers are in my future.

Going slow   

Hi Sonic

Isn't that funny how the light bulb    comes on?  You do one thing and it reveals another.

Just a guess but according to my listening here the highs start to line up when the blocks are about 3 months old. Their good and spacial but that musical instrument quality starts to come in a little time. Also if it is a little rolled on the top look at where you have the magic wood and think about decreasing it by a little bit. The Magic Wood, Brazilian Pine and the LT Redwood make a very nice blend when in the right places and in balance.

I play a little balancing act and usually everything falls into place with some ear power. Your system will talk to you.

Oh, and yes go slow, let the system get use to the new harmonics cause you have opened up a couple of areas that have not been played before.

Greetings Michael

There is something with the LT redwood blocks. A sense of "wholeness" is beginning to be heard.

This is how I plan to go about applying the blocks in the next few days/weeks:

12 blocks under the two Magneplanar 1.5QRs (6 per speaker)

8 blocks under the rods of the Clampracks (4 per rack)

12 blocks under the three FS-PZCs at the front wall of the room -- 4 per FS-PZC with the cones spiking onto the LT redwood blocks

2 blocks under the main amp toroidal transformers - (1 per toroid)

3 blocks under the CD player

3 blocks under the preamp platform

3 blocks under the main amp platform

Sonic will keep a few reserved in case I bring the subwoofer back and when I bring my other goodies like my tape machines into this system.

Also some of these applications may be switched to ones that matter more.

Was listening tonight to Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass' Again (Pablo 1976). The sound of presence, weight and realism is really good this time.

Sonic