Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

Hi Michael

I understand that FS-PZCs were designed with MTD cones in mind. What about the FS-DRTs? The boards had no drillings for cones though Sonic later drilled and threaded four holes for MTDs/AAB1x1s.

How does this work with your design intention? Since Sonic started with the Low Tone Redwood blocks, I hae been using the FS-DRTs without cones. Should I go back to using cones -- regardless of what I hear, how does this sit with your original design?

Sonic

Hi Sonic

I like that you put spikes on them. At the time they were designed people kinda freaked out over the idea of a floorstanding acoustical product being too tweaky. Honestly I was afraid I was going to tweak myself out of the market by going too crazy. I was already way ahead of everyone else and that didn't always sit well with the audiophile masses. It's a tight rope I've always walked. I don't like it but it's so hard to teach certain things to the audiophile crowd. The new RTD2 comes with spikes (three of them). Blocks vs Spikes, I wouldn't want to say cause there are so many different blends to do.

Hi Michael

Am Sonic right to understand I should use spikes rather than MTDs? I got both in my closet.

Also tell me if Sonic's ears are right -- with my genuine Michael Green Clamp Rack with the thick hemlock boards, I think that between AAB1x1s spiking into the hemlock or onto a think MW piece resting on the hemlock, direct spike is better. And with the matt Harmonic Springs, resting on the hemlock board sounds better than on a MW thin between the spring and the Hemlock board.

Makes sense to you?

Sonic

Hi Sonic

When it comes to the blending of the transfer there are so many things that pop in my mind that it would be hard for me to answer unless I was there listening. There have been times when the slightest little Magic Wood was too much and other times I couldn't get enough.

The audio signal itself seems to act like a garden hose that swells and shrinks in different areas at different times. It's interesting because you may tune in one area and think you have a fix on the combo then you put on a piece of music and everything seems to have either opened up or close in. The same goes for tonality and especially speed and pace. This is obviously because of the parts in the system being different shapes sizes and materials. As part of the signal builds up the signal will then change the way the other pieces or parts respond. I try not to say this way is better than that because I find that as soon as I do I hear something in the signal path that changed making me want to go another direction or slight degree of material flow change, even if it is move a material over just by a little. Another thing too with the racks and Hemlock is the amount of energy that goes into where the rod meets the nut and shelf. One of the reasons I loved going to platforms was so I didn't have to worry so much about that place on the rack where the transfer is made.



If you do move to platforms you get to eliminate the whole stage of what happens to the transfer rod as it touches other shelves and components on the way to ground. See the shelf below the one with the component? Listen to what happens to the sound when you tune this shelf to change the flow of what is happening above. Put a piece of Magic wood where the nut meets the tuning shelf on the bottom shelf. Listen to how it changes the entire flow of everything above it. I enjoyed being "the master"    of rack tuning, but when I went to platforms   , the difference in control is remarkable. If I had a rack now I would for sure have a platform ontop of each shelf.

Hi Sonic

I started a new area you might enjoy posting on and I will enjoy reading. https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t233-classical-music-reviews#3899

It's time tuneland talks classical what do you think?

Hi Michael

How tall are the mini-platforms that can fit on and work with a Clamprack with hemlock?

If I were to try a MW piece under the hex nuts -- which hex nuts, front or rear?

Sonic

Hi Sonic

I still think you should be doing Platforms, but I also think that if you tried a platform on the rack it would tell you tons and you could also try it on the floor and see if you like it better on the floor or the rack. Probably a pretty smart move actually. The Platforms come out to about 5" without the spike or washers. You could also have the platform made without the spike brackets and that would make them 4.25" tall.

On the Magic Wood trick try them or one on any rod to hear what it does. I used slivers all over my racks at times.

Hi Michael and Zonees

Here is how Sonic arranged my FS-DRTs:



and getting closer to the assemblage:



They work nicely now that they are settling in.

Let's see how it goes into next week, then Sonic may do something with the FS-DTs.

Your thoughts, Michael?

Sonic

Hi Sonic

At this point I'm just watching   

So is Sonic watching too.

Certainly, this is going to lead to other movements in the room. Some things can be adjusted in isolation, other times one thing leads to another or goes with another.

I have just PM'd Harold on what might be the next order.

Tell me more about your use of Music Ply on your room windows:

a. Did you cover all the glass with wood?

b. How did you do the mounting? Is the Music Ply attached directly to the glass, or is it hanging free?

c. How do you deal with need for ambient light? When Sonic tried things on the windows the room went dark, due to ambient light being blocked. I like some ambient light coming thru the windows.

d. Will Music Ply work if hung free like a curtain?

e. How thick is the Music Ply you are using?

A picture will probably answer a lot of these questions.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Dug out the camera, but I'm still the worst photographer on the planet   



There's no light in the room, I use the light from the hall. So most of the time there's just a little glow that comes in from the right.

Oh, also you'll want to email Harold and not PM.

hanging the wood?

Well I like it on a frame so it acts more like a platform.

So Sonic

Take a look at Hiend001's thread and see what blocks look the same. I don't have as many components as you guys but I'll try to follow some of the block moves for comparisons.

Hi Michael

Sonic tried a pair of Low Tone Redwood blocks (I took them from a place where their effect was less than fulsome) and place them at the edges of the X-30.

  ehh...just like you say (to Hiend001) as settling happens the sound can be spatially weird. With CD sources, it sounds like I am listening from inside the harpsichord....although the sound was all around me like a surround system will the rear channels turned up. This means energy of some form is being unleashed, am I right?

On analog, the spatial change is less pronounced but playing a Charles Ives Sonata for violin and piano, something interesting is going on. Sonic is listening to see where this goes.

Sonic

Hi Sonic
Welcome to my world   

I sometimes leave out where I go with this stuff because it would scare people half to death, but when you get close to unlocking certain doors you will find yourself right in the middle of a recording or part of a recording. Sometimes you will even be placed with you in the middle and all the instruments are completely around you like you could turn around in your seat and talk to each musician as you turned in a circle. And here's the thing. Nothing sounds distorted, it's cystal clear just weird.

Now what I think you just experienced is the system getting in perfect sinc with the harpsichord pickup or mic. Sometimes we can get so "intune" with a particular part, and if the other parts are even slightly "not as intune" the system will let through that info more clearly than the other, and it will sound like a solo is going on and you are in there with the solo. This is part of what I mean by you can explore certain parts of the music. Now with a tunable room and system you can do this pretty predictable.

vibratory codes my friend

Hi Michael and Zonees

With learning the edge placement method with the Low Tone Redwood blocks more things are happening in Sonic's system. More in a day or so.

But Sonic got this from a friend steeped in British audio. Linn (golden age), Rogers monitors, Quad electronics etc

This audiofan has a collection of old British audio magazines and in one called Hifi Answers came up with some wild ideas. Told Sonic about one Graham Holliman who espoused ideas about infra bass and sub harmonics. Holliman designed a subwoofer and speakers. Wants to recreate and bring to being Holliman's ideas. Bemused Sonic is but I would listen since so much of Holliman's is related to analog which I am discovering. Sent me some of Graham Holliman's thought from a patent filing:

Description of GB2211049 (A)
Graham Holliman, Inventor

A LOUDSPEAKER FOR
GREATER REALISM AND STABILITY
OF THE
ACOUSTIC IMAGE.

This invention relates to a loudspeaker system for single channel or multi channel sound
production and reproduction, for use in domestic Hi-Fi systems, recording studios and other
professional installations.

Loudspeakers and their uses in such single and multi channel systems are well known.

Normal loudspeakers however suffer from an inability to accurately portray the illusion of
reality; that is, one is invariably aware that one is listening to a loudspeaker system and not
the real thing, irrespective of how complicated or expensive such loudspeakers may be.

One factor which is of particular importance in creating an acoustic illusion of reality is
described below.

The vast majority of real sounds emanate from a source which lies at a distance from the
listener which is much greater than the distance of the loudspeaker system which is used to
create the illusion of real sounds.

When a listener moves with a'real' sound field, the perceived directional information
concerning the locations of an original sound source and the acoustics within which that
source is located vary very little with considerable listener movement. This is not the case
with the reproduced equivalent, where, due to the close proximity of the loudspeakers,
directional information varies wildly with even small movements of the listener.

This means that the sound stage reproduced by loudspeakers of conventional types is
fundamentally unstable, and cannot reproduce the elusive quality we call realism.
If each loudspeaker of a sound system is designed to provide a wide, coherent source of
sound, radiating an approximately linear wavefront in the horizontal plane ( or, in special
cases, a wavefront with carefully contrived deviation from basic linearity, which may or may
not be user controllable, in said horizontal plane ) the aforementioned criterion of small
angular displacement of acoustic information with listener- movement can be satisfied, with
the attendant increase in realism.

It must be pointed out that the wavefront need not be linear, or even near linear in the vertical
plane, but may be so if desired. It must also be pointed out that, the wider each coherent
sound source is made, the wider will be the emanating wavefront, and the larger will be the
resulting horizontal area of acceptible realism within which the listener is free to move. The
listening environment will of course dictate in practice the limits of width which can be
tolerated! The designing of a good coherent source should be well within the capabilities of
any competent engineer, as the governing principles are well known.

It would of course be quite easy to assemble or design a system which, while employing the
above techniques, also incorporated some of the more established design principles; for
example, one can envisage a speaker using the technique herein described for say the
middle and/or the upper frequencies only, and employing conventional techniques to
produce the bass register.

CLAIMS

1. A loudspeaker system for single channel or multi (two or more) channel reproduction (or sound production), in which each loudspeaker channel approximates a wide, coherent source of sound, radiating an approximately linear wavefront in the horizontal plane.

2. A loudspeaker as in claim 1. where the approximation to linearity of the radiated wavefront in the horizontal plane is made to deviate from actual linearity in a carefully contrived way which may or not be user controllable 3. A loudspeaker substantially as herein described.

4. A loudspeaker as claimed in any other claim, which, in addition, also employs more established design principles for parts of its mode of operation.

Sonic thinks: I don't know what he is talking about....

Hi Sonic

Been thinking about the AeroPlanes. When you look at the product page https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t76-mga-sound-shutters-acoustical-defuse-aeroplanes it has them with the deco bases and you know what a pain they are. I also looked at the old design and am still not happy with that base. I want the board to be as free resonant as possible and aerodynamic. So, I looked at our rule of wood/metal/wood and came up with this.

Hi Michael

It is good that you mentioned Aeroplanes because Sonic augmented the set up of the FS-DRTs perpendicular to the front wall with this:



This has give an improvement of focus across the width of the soundstage and there is an increase in the number of feet the size of the recording acoustic expanded sideways mostly and to a smaller but noticeable extent front to back too.

Do you think that this would be an ideal application for Aeroplanes? Looking at my set up, where else do you recommend Sonic to try Aeroplanes?

Also the use of two Low Tone Redwood blocks under the X-30 has been a success.  



With this set up Zonees can see what Sonic was thinking about on Garp’s thread – I can get to canopies to top tune the phono stage and the X-30.  Sonic has a cedar board from Michael that will do the job.  Mild steel rods (sharpened) at the corners – holes drilled oversize – and a resitone spike in the middle to contact the circuit board.  And a similar assembly will be done later for the X-30.  Sonic’s practice is if I got only one tuning device and a choice of two places to use it, I would choose the application at or nearer the source.  So in this case the phono stage gets top tuned first.

Now playing Oliver Messiaen’s Vingt Regards sur l’Enfant Jesus (Erato, Pierre-Laurent Aimard on Piano).  Wonderful transient impact and when the low end of the Steinway gets played…wow! And Beethoven’s Violin Concerto in D major -- Nathan Milstein and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orch.,  Wm Steinberg conducting. Mono but beautifully right violin tone. This is the only violin concerto Beethoven wrote.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

My system has a noticeable boom around 90 hz but one activated only when the note carrying that frequency or it being a harmonic of is sustained. This comes from the Janis W-1 subwoofer system interface because the Magneplanar MG1.5QRs don’t exhibit this on their own.

Even so the entire system (MG1.5QRs and Janis W-1 together) measures so-so flat in that region tested using 1/3 octave pink noise and measured with the SPL meter.

Yet, the Janis W-1 is technically rolling off in that zone due to the X-30 setting but boom it does on some recordings. The boom is not so bad so as to invalidate the use of a subwoofer but it can at times erode the musicality of some LPs (but less CDs).

Then Sonic had an idea – move the three Low Tone Redwood blocks supporting the Rotel subwoofer amp from under the chassis to right at the edges (two front and one rear).

  And the boom on that sustained note reduced sharply yet without sounding any different on the bass otherwise.

Michael can you explain this. In another world, faced with this problem audiophiles will be buying traps, graphic EQs and apps to calculate all sorts of different combinations of speaker placement. But here is a 2 inch movement of three wooden blocks supporting an amp and the problem reduces to the point it is out of mind   

Sonic

Hi Sonic

"Then Sonic had an idea – move the three Low Tone Redwood blocks supporting the Rotel subwoofer amp from under the chassis to right at the edges (two front and one rear).

 And the boom on that sustained note reduced sharply yet without sounding any different on the bass otherwise.

Michael can you explain this. In another world, faced with this problem audiophiles will be buying traps, graphic EQs and apps to calculate all sorts of different combinations of speaker placement. But here is a 2 inch movement of three wooden blocks supporting an amp and the problem reduces to the point it is out of mind    "
_____________

This is what you need to tell Stereophile and ask me why?

The Audiophile world has no clue how the audio signal works   No clue, but as I always say we have created musical instruments, not stuck systems. Think about how much vibration is going into that block from the parts in your component. The block filled with audio signal and then told the parts energy it is Ok to interact with me. I know it seems almost impossible, but you have to let go a let this energy be as alive as it is. If you guys can let go of fixed you will be able to shape your music in so many ways it will blow your minds.

Sonic and guys, I want to show you something.


Harmonics

Harmonics are made every time you play a note. Most of the time, however, you do not hear them. Well you may even hear them but they may be way in the distance. What you hear is the fundamental (sometimes called the first harmonic). The fundamental is the loudest sound produced, but it is accompanied by several harmonics. "Playing harmonics" is the technology of playing fundamentals and the other overtones.

Open Harmonics

Open harmonics as I sometimes referred to as natural harmonics. These harmonics are picked up by the mics and are on the recording and if they make it through the system will reveal (open themselves up) in playback if the system is able to align enough of these over tones. This is where you have to let go of the audiophile stuff. the audiophile gig does "not" talk about music. It may use a few of the same words but the two worlds are not on the same page.

Playing Harmonics

Playing all the harmonics can be hard. This requires not only the playing of a note, but also a "soft touch" with the parts that carry the signal. The audio signal has to be looked at more like preserving notes than passing frequencies or you will never understand how delicate the flow through the system really is.

Stimulating Harmonics

When your playing your guitar and you want to play the harmonics over the fundamental or use them to influence what do you do? You use touch techniques to make this happen. You can play that string, or strings many different ways to create more awareness of harmonics that were always there, you just brought them out more or less. This is how you create flavor. Play the same note or same chord hundreds of different ways without changing the note or chord and it will sound a hundred different ways. Play the same note on a different instrument and again it will sound a hundred different ways and flavors. It's not a frequency Sonic, it's a note and all that comes with a note. A frequency is nothing more than a fixed language symbal. It's a measuring cup not the taste of the cake.

Frequency vs Note

A frequency has no flavor attached to it. But, play that frequency through a hundred different systems and I guarantee it will sound different every time. Why?

to be continued.....

"Frequency vs Note

A frequency has no flavor attached to it. But, play that frequency through a hundred different systems and I guarantee it will sound different every time. Why?

to be continued....."

If we took a frequency and play it back on any two instruments, it would sound different. A frequency on a trumpet sounds different than on a violin. Hook up your test mic and you will get the same frequency, listen to the different instruments and you will get two different sounds. Same happens when you play the same frequency on two different audio systems. They will measure the same frequency but sound different.

I'm always preaching about how we have over done things in this hobby, and how we generalize too much. We think it doesn't really hurt to lump a frequency in with a note, and so the hobby has created this huge thing about tests and responses and measurements LxWxH and distortions and all this stuff that comes with it. But it's all artifical. These technical lands of theory don't have much to do with sound, other than representing a portion of the measuring of sound. The audio industry has yet to become a real science as compared to music and the musical instrument. People say you can't compare an audio system to a musical instrument, and they would be right cause the audio system has a way to go science whys to catch up with a music instrument.

A note or a sound (audio signal) is still heads and sholders above audio reproduction systems. A note and a sound has active harmonic structures. Not just a structure but structures. There's the fundamental and all the other parts of nature that comes with it. This includes every other form of energy around it. Why does a cello explode with sound? Cause it explodes with vibration and vibrates everything around it that it can stimulate till it dissipates. It creates many layers of energized soundwaves and pressure. If you played one note on that cello, this explosion will happen. You could measure this explosion from many angles and placements and find many sweet spots of the note. Set up a recording test and mic all over this cello playing this one note and you will hear a huge range of different sounds. This is not a frequency, and if your test equipment is measuring all these different sounds as one frequency (which is what is happening) you are not testing the note, but a very small portion of it, maybe 1/100, maybe less.

testing speaker vs cello

When we setup our tests, we brought in the instrument, played the note, recorded it, took out the instrument, put in the speaker and played it. We played the recording back on several speakers and the playback sounded different on every speaker. One note remember. Then we did A/B testing between the live note and the recorded playback. Not one speaker sounded like the cello. It wasn't until we brought in a tunable (vibrating) speaker and tuned it to sound like the cello that we came close. The first thing we noticed with the other speakers were the heavier they were the smaller the sound got. The more dampened they were the duller the sound got and you could only hear part of the note and the rest was gone, like you were listening to a frequency instead of a developed note. The heavier dampen speakers also sounded out of pitch compared to the cello.

Next we played the speaker and cello in the same room one at a time. When the speaker was placed in the room with the cello and we played, the cello went out of tune. We would have to keep taking the cello out of the room and tune it, it would go out of pitch that fast. The sound in the room with the speaker and cello at the same time sounded very off (distorted). We then put in the vibrating speaker and tuned it so close to the cellos note that you could hear both of them oscillating together. Even with one speaker there was size and body, where the other speakers sounded flat small and distorted.

part 3

We did a lot of these listening tests and it helped me in my conclusions about the products being built and the audio signal.

The audio signal works more like the musical note than we give it credit. The audio signal is all vibration and if we do things like we did with that cello the same results happen. It takes very little dampening to make these musical notes go out of pitch. It also takes very little dampening or diffusion to cancel waves and pressure in a room or throw them out of tune.

It doesn't surprise me at all that a little movement of a Block can change the sound that much, why wouldn't it? The audio signal has far more to it then we think and as far as thinking if we can get our minds around notes and away from frequencies we will be much further ahead cause a frequency is not a note but a very small part of it.

I need to talk about note and harmonic sweet spots.

Sonic must say I was impressed by the change this seemly small move made.

Now listening to J Haydn's Trios for Baryton, Viola and Cello (Hungaroton CD). This is a wonderful recording of the intertwining lines of these instruments with overlapping registers plus the resonating/plucked strings of the the Baryton.

Slightly distant perspective in Sonic's room but the three instruments are separated in musical line without being pulled apart in space, but play together as they would on a stage.

Hi Zonees

Sonic top tuned the phono stage – using a treated pine board from Michael for the canopy, a resitone down spike (also M Green) and plain sharpened mild steel rods from Sonic’s friendly DIY store with M Green plain hex nuts.

The spike goes onto a plain spot on the phono stage circuit board with the point resting on a small thin MW piece.

The start was a little dodgy since the rods were a little long so there was less maneuvering room within the Clamprack shelves than I would have liked but Sonic got it set up. At first the rods kept going loose and the assembly leaning over even though I used a spirit level to ensure the board was level but it always looked a bit off to me.

Finally I set level by eye and the thing got a bit more stable.

The sound from the phono front end became more real and “whole”, improved starting transients. And am I imagining it – record surface noise reduced in annoyance…and this in Sonic’s system where visitors have remarked “how come your vinyl is so quiet? When there is a tick, it sounds distant…but there is no rolled off treble, even a slight brightness at times….?”

Will Sonic use the other pine board and make another top tune canopy to top tune my X-30? Probably not…it is getting fiddly.

The next thing Sonic will likely do is to change the speaker cable feeding the Janis W-1 from the thin multi-strand cable I am now using to a pair of T2 cables from Michael. Sonic was rummaging through my closet of tune things and found some T2 of just the right length to make up a + and - pair.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

This is what Sonic did to top tune the phone stage:



At this point, I am backing off from this Tune.  Over the week it has been in place, when the canopy, hex-nuts and everything is just so, there is a delicate dimensionality but the thing goes out of balance easily by itself, the nuts go loose and the assembly gets unstable.  Sonic rebalances things and it is fine till the next day or so....and then I knocked it over when reaching to press the power up button   

So for a bit I been running without the contraption and while Sonic may be exhibiting the sour grapes syndrome, the sound without the canopy is so close to what I get when it is "just so" that the additional trouble isn't worth it.

Now playing Rachmaninoff's Complete Etudes-Tableaux, Karen Shaw -- piano (MHS), and relaxed not worrying about the canopy.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

Know what? After Sonic listened at length last night and this evening, something is missing without the canopy. The weight and girth is there but a certain edge has been lost from the transients that define the notes and give instruments and voices the breath of realism.

Sonic is thinking to reassemble the canopy and shorten the over-long rods which may be part of the instability problem. Also might use some thin 3M transparent tape round the rods to get the hex-nuts to hold. Tomorrow's a holiday in this town so this is something Sonic might be up to.

Sonic