Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

Hi sonic

My system and method is a blend of transfer. I've learned to listen to what the signal is doing when I shorten or lengthen the dissipating vibration, and what the vibration host does. Your materials are capacitors and hold some of the energy, passing on some of the energy and returning some of the energy. When the wood is raw (like the rods I sent) it reacts differently here (in the dry) than it does there (in the wet). On a really dry spell here it will give a tight solid tone with warmth, on a day where the humidity is up a little it gives a sluggish dull sound and can lose some of the supporting harmonics. The same sound is also what happens to my drivers and parts and electrical. It's like riding a wave of air, sometimes good sometimes not so good.

I sent this so I could hear where your humidity is at and how it is affecting the total sound of your system. You should sometime bake these pieces and put them in the same place you had them right after baked.

Hi Michael

What about the way to tune toroidal transformers using Low Tone Redwood blocks?

Sonic

How much space do yo have around the transformer?

There are a few things to try that are fun. Just one underneigh, 3 underneigh, 3 underneigh with one on top. Play around and see what you come up with.

Hi Zonees

Been listening lots this week to analog with relatively tune activity. Sonic however learnt one thing. Wood of any kind under the two FS-DRTs cause a shrinkage of the middle stage and an odd tone. So I am leaving the FS-DRTs sitting on the floor directly.

I was going to try MW over the Low Tone Redwood blocks supporting the Janis W-1 subwoofer.

Then Michael wrote about tuning the toroidal transformers.

Sonic placed 3 Low Tone Redwood blocks under each toroidal transformer of the main amp and place a Low Tone Redwood block on top of each toroidal transformer -- so that's 8 blocks used in one go. I now got only 2 maybe 3 Low Tone Redwood blocks left.

The sound was.....unusual....like Sonic says, "this is my room, this looks like my system but it doesn't sound the same".

The harmonic structure of the sound has shifted down and gone big. Like there are two big bubbles of sound behind the speakers, yet the speakers are not obvious as the source of the sound. Very smooth sounding....too smooth? Volume for a given setting is slightly but certainly louder.

It seems to be telling Sonic to not touch anything else and let this settle.

Pix to follow and description of the settling.

Sonic

The Low Tone Redwood blocks under the main amp's 2 toroidal transformers (3 under, 1 above) are making excellent musick. The orchestral image is now expanding, there is bass weight and treble detail. Sonic then placed one Low Tone Redwood block on the toroidal transformer of the subwoofer amplifier. Even better with settling over this weekend. Placed a Space Cone on the subwoofer transformer Low Tone Redwood block and Sonic got a more harmonic bass that extended in frequency higher than the Janis W-1 passband.

I am down to two Low Tone Redwood blocks plus a large block that Michael added into the package.

What can I do with the large block, Michael?

Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

As the Low Tone Redwood blocks settle in I am hearing a new fullness in the range of my system. The gives weight and realism where the music is "present" in the room. Proportion of images is good. Played a CD of Mozart's Symphony 41 recorded live. The handclaps were beginning to be around me, behind the listening seat but mostly in front but wider than the speakers.

There will be more things I will be doing with the Low Tone Redwood blocks and posting about later this week.

It the Low Tone Redwood blocks keep on settling, my system may need less reinforcement from the Janis W-1 subwoofer. SOnic could end up with a passive unit like Garp.

This is the best direction Sonic got out of the Tune tonally.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

This sounds about right for the Low Tone. The first impressions were cool but as time goes by you can hear the harmonics start to develop. The more the harmonics develop the more the frequencies turn into notes and the more things fill in.

Hi Zonees

After this not working:



Placing the FS-DRTs on either Low Tone Redwood blocks or the MW blocks gave much the same effect -- shrinkage and an upward shift in tone.

But this:



plus this:



with this:




  IS ASTOUNDING!  

Harmonic richness, more projection in the cello range, a more organic sound.

Like Michael described, Sonic is beginning to get the all round effect.  Not that there are instruments or noticeable ambience behind me.  I am now listening to Beethoven's 14th (Op 131) and 9th Quartet (Op 59 nr 3) by Le Quartuor Talich, at a very moderate volume.  Sonic feels like I am in the recording.

I described on Harold's thread that playing Neil Young's Harvest, I could hear the width of the orchestral soundscape 3x the width of my room and much larger than the room front and back.

Yes, Sonic's system is doing that after these three application of Low Tone Redwood. Of course the other Low Tone Redwood blocks are contributing but this burst of harmonics occurred after I followed Michael's advice leading to these three Tunes.  I will need to rebalance my settings for the Janis W-1 system.

If blocks of Low Tone Redwood can do this, wonder what if my room had aeroplanes, tuning boards and platforms of this wood   

Sonic

Hi Sonic

This is a great turn and we were right about getting voiced wood involved in the sound of your system. Your diligence is paying off, and you are begining to find the secrets of your system's vibratory codes.

As you listen you can hear those harmonics aligning and the expansion of space bringing the total picture together. very nice  

Hi Michael and Zonees

Yes, Michael -- it was a good move to go to voiced wood. I am seeing enough progress to want to go another step higher with stuff. I'll be connecting with Harold.

Sonic had a good many hours of listening to musick through the analog medium. After hearing what Mr Green said about his preferences in sound, where he likes to be more in the recording – which means tuning to have discrete images forward of the speakers and at the sides of his listening chair. Might be great for rock and some jazz but I wonder how a string quartet will play/image on a system like this.

In the meantime, part of my listening has been to some lesser known French baroque composers – Jacques Aubert and Johann Schobert. The sound I get is involving, Sonic is in the ambience of the recording, the artistes and instruments are present but I am not sitting in the band/orchestra or right up to it. This is right given how I relate to a live performance as a listener.

The rich harmonics are due to the Low Tone Redwood blocks and I got things even more warm and full after Sonic placed two AAB1x1 deep bell cones in the rear of the X-30 and a solid AAB1x1 cones in the front WITH two AAB1x1 shallow bell cones in the rear and one deep bell AAB1x1 cone under the tube phono stage that I am using.

The 50 Low Tone Redwood blocks are all used up. Here is how:

12 blocks under the Magneplanars (6 per speaker)
12 blocks under three FS-PZCs (4 per FS-PZC)
4 blocks under the Janis W-1 subwoofer
8 blocks under the Michael Green Clampracks (4 per clamprack)
8 blocks tuning the toroidal transformers of the main amp (4 per toroidal transformer)
4 blocks tuning the subwoofer amp (3 under the chassis, 1 on the toroidal transformer)
1 block under the Quicksilver Line Stage’s transformer
1 block under the Quicksilver Line Stage’s choke

Here’s a question for Michael:

My Janis W-1 subwoofer is in the LH room corner. There is nothing of equivalent mass in the RH room corner. The soundstage is even on both sides – it is perfectly fine, Sonic hears no tilt of them stage either way.

Anyway, being curious Sonic tried something Hiend1 did – take a cardboard tube and stand it in the RH room corner. It pushed the “centre of gravity” of the whole sound stage towards the LH corner where the Janis W-1 subwoofer is!

Hiend1 used this to balance his soundstage Right/Left due to his placing a subwoofer in one corner. I got the opposite effect.

What’s the reason for this Michael? Apart from “no two rooms are the same…your mileage may vary etc “

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Sometimes pressure does work in an offsetting way (needing to balance materials to make something even), pressure is also a zone builder. This is why I live in the "pressure zone" world and philosophy. A room without a lot of furniture can build fairly even zones that work off of each other and I believe even keep each other inflated, if that works to paint the picture. Energy wants to be in balance, that's it's natural state. As sound pressure builds it builds to form round evenly maintained sphere's. They do get out of balance but then start working toward a balanced state. This is why acoustical breakin is such a big deal when a new piece of music is put on. You can put on a piece of music and it sound horrible, come back an hour later and it's a completely diferent sound. Not only is the system settling but the room is also trying to get into a consistent maintainable set of acoustical structures.



It could be that when you put something in the other corner that it worked to decrease the over all, both zones struggled. It almost sounds like popping the zone with a pin. Keep in mind that pressure zones are amplifiers.

Another fabulous evening of musick listening.

Heard J S Bach's Cantatas 26 and 27 (Harnoncourt), J P Rameau's Les Indes Galantes (Les Musicholiers, Aviva Einhorn), Giovanni Botessini's Concert for Violin, Contrebasse and Orchestra. All analog. Very good musick.

Michael -- can I use a cedar finished board as a top tune canopy (genuine MG cedar board)? Can you supply the 1/4 inch mild steel down rods?

My Rega turntable has a base of wood fibre material and the isolation from vibrations and shock is by three rubber/elastomer cups. How can I go about tuning a table like this? Some have tried an acrylic piece underneath with springs of some sort. Ideas?

Sonic

Hi Sonic

What is the table doing that you wish it would do better sound wise?

hmmm, north west cedar hah    Do you have the board, or is this something I would make?

I'll have to see if I have steel rods or have to make them.

Honestly Michael, the Rega table and arm are doing excellently. It is just the Tune has taught me that with the right moves, the good can become really great.

There are a barrel full of tweaks (I won't call them tunes) for the Rega -- machined alloy inner platter and bearing instead of the stock plastic one, Acrylic or Delrin main platter, better belt, some feet. I may go for some of these. There are also some cartridges I could go to.

But in this case I was planning to top tune the phono stage. I have one of your cedar boards just the right size. Was wondering if it would work.

However, this is not a priority. The analog system is already very good particularly with the AAB1x1 cones. More movement down the road that the Low Tone Redwood blocks have indicated is where I should go.

Sonic also found that while the most common thing is to have a MW piece under the cone tip, sometimes spiking down directly on the Hemlock shelf sounds much better.

Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees
Small improvements and Tune learnings this week.  The Low Tone Redwood has settled more and from my listening chair Sonic can speak and hear my voice more resonant.

Here is what I referred to in my post a couple of days ago:



The perceived volume for a given preamp setting is rising too.

I got the most even bass using the 50 Hz high pass on the X-30 rather than the 80 Hz one.  This has been the setting for some time now.  

Sonic recently heard a Chinese lion dance up close.  Now the sound of the Chinese cymbals and kettle drum struck by hard wooden beaters is deafening up close especially in an enclosed space where this performance was to take place.  Sonic went prepared -- ear protectors.  So the performance began.  The clashing cymbals were reduced in intensity to safe levels.  But the drums taught me about bass transients.  The drumbeats struck me in the gut with a speed and a continuing pressure impact.  With hifi systems even played out, you get a good thump and you feel it is a bit soft and the pressure hits then falls off.  Not the real thing.  The impact is sustained for a moment and you feel the pressure in the chest and gut.

I wonder if any audio system can recreate this kind of sustained pressure impact?  Of course the SPLs will be necessarily high and ear damaging if listened to for too long but is it even possible...

The other thing Sonic tried is using the Low Tone Redwood blocks as cable lifters.



My voice in the room went more resonant, the sound was warmer but the effect on the musick is odd. Sonic felt there was more sound coming from the speakers themselves, the images of familiar recordings were in slightly different places and mid stage images were more recessed that I am accustomed to.

Michael, should Sonic persevere or is this not going to work? Or anything I can do to make it work?  

Sonic

Hi Sonic

On the table

If something is working it is a risk to take a step toward it not working if you try to take it further. By tweaking you may indeed take it further but I have learned in this hobby that it can easily be one step forward and two steps back if the wrong thing is done. I don't give a lot of advice on tables anymore because without using one I hate to go down that path somewhat in the blind. Tables are fussy beyond belief and I have seen too many holes get dug in the name of a supposed improvement. I have sat in reviewers homes and clients and seen adjustments made where the other listener jumped and said "did you hear that" but to me I heard more of what came up missing than the improvement the listener said they were getting. I think what many of these people didn't get was, when you make one adjustment on the table it "by nature" automatically adjust everything else in the system. It's important to stay mindful of the fact that an adjustment anywhere in the system is also an adjustment on every other part. The flow changes, and with that, so does the reaction to the flow.

on the recording vs live

I would not necessarily go after the live dynamics, but something that give you the emotion you want that is close.

The recordings I have worked on where we (for the heck of it) went full blown dynamics threw the woofers right out of the cabinet. Not really but it did fry the voice coils flairy quick.

We have to keep in mind that there is a stage between live and playback where dynamics need to be adjusted if we want the most out of our fidelity. I should come back to this and think I have talked about this somewhere in the archives but to put it in a nutshell. There is more to live air pressure than meets the ear. This is not always a good thing for playback. In playback the most sensitive drivers (I'm not talking efficiency ratings) have the best chance of reproducing the music facts, but they are also the easiest drivers to damage. this is why you see "pro drivers". They may not be the most accurate but they don't blow as easy when faced with dynamic ranges.

My last trip to Detroit recording in the Sound Lounge gives a good testament for this.  We were laying down some gospel tracks and the vocals sounded weird on the pro speakers as they were ok for rap but not so for the vocals and movements of the gospel. We put on my 60's and subs and although everything cleared up dramatically and was plenty loud for a listener and huge soundstage, as soon as the compession was removed and the rap was put back on the speakers wanted to be burried. I have rarely seen voice coils move so much (my poor babies). Back went on the Genelecs, and in the ear plugs. I would have to say that the Gen's maybe produced a third of the sound that the 60's did but they could handle about everything that was thrown at them. The soundstage with the 60's was at least 3 times the size of the Gen's, and the Genelecs had to be pointed right at the listener. They hated off axis! But until there is a driver that can do both (deliver all the signal and handle straight dynamics) we will have this step inbetween. I don't really mind it to be honest. The dynamics for me with playback is pretty darn good, but the compression now days for some reason is sounding a little on the weird side. there's something choppy going on, but that's another topic if the pro side ever gets going.

So basically there are diferent levels of dynamics in music and with technogy not quite being there as far as reproducing true dynamic ranges we have at least two, I think three diferent levels of dynamics from listening live, recording, and playback.

Hi Michael

Please give me your thoughts on what Sonic experienced with using the Low Tone Redwood blocks as cable grounds.

Sonic also got hold of an alternative turntable mat -- one of synthetic leather. I used it and there was a big increase in midrange clarity. This might work and there is the convenience of the mat not trapping dust particles like the felt.

After a bit of settling the sound became a bit edgy. Sonic was expecting this because the synthetic leather mat is a little bit thinner than the felt so the VTA increases. l then adjusted the height of the RB700 arm pillar (it uses shims) down by 2 mm. The edginess is much reduced but the clarity and pace is there -- musical and great treble sweetness, extension and flow that digital doesn't give but the sound I am getting is converging with some aspects of what I hear in digital (Tuned the M Green way and hi-res). Troubling.....?

Sonic

Hi Sonic

The LTR Blocks to me represent a flavor and a gate in the dissipation (to me each block sounds a little diferent from the next). They give a very important flavor much like the Brazilian Pine does but if this flavor is over done or puts something else out  of balance the first sign is the sound running into the speakers, so I would back up to the place where this happened and take it step at a time till you can hear exactly when it happened. If you changed them all out at once that may not tell you the whole story. For example if it were me and I heard the change you did I would at that point be tempted to un twist the type 3 a little and see if that spreaded the stage out and away from the speaker, or even looked at what could it be that got plugged up. To me it sounds like more than a flavor change and maybe more a blockage being revealed. Not always but blockage is when it goes into the speaker and flavor is when the tone changes. The two kinda happen together but they can also react diferently to the vibration of any part in the system.

I'll tell you this, if I wasn't fairly good at being able to hear parts this type of thing would be pretty tough to sort out. Sometimes I too sit there and stare at my systems for a while till I start to let them talk to me. When they do talk it usually points to me a place where something is having a clot. And when that clot gets cleared up a flood of stage comes to life.

Blocks as cable grounds? The only thing that I would be cautious about would be the mass ratio between that much Redwood and that little PVC & copper. Remember that something that is doing too much right, is the same as wrong. Not that the LTR is a bad thing but it too can become and over thing and could be taking over the job of the other materials.

balance, it's all about balance

Hi Michael

Here is a Tune brain teaser for you!  Have a look at this picture:



As Sonic was preparing for my next step in the Tune and shortlisting things to order from Tuneland, I thought of FS PZCs and Aero-Planes.  So I tried to get a sense of what effect more FS-PZCs or Aero-planes might have in my room, I swapped the positions of two FS-PZCs and FS-DTs in my set up.  

The FS-PZCs you see on each side of the racks were originally from the front corners where the FS-DTs are now.  The FS-DTs used to be where the two FS-PZCs are.

First effect on playing music was a huge sound filling the room round me  but as settling proceeded with more CDs played over the hours things started to go off in an odd direction.  Here’s what I heard with about 4+ hours of musick:

a.  There is an odd pressure effect on my ears like when an aircraft reduces altitude to come in to land.  

b.  The soundfield was huge and I could hear details like tape splices

c.  There are now acoustically deader zones in the corners so the effect is a Live Zone ahead of the PZCs, and a Dead Zone in the areas behind and to sides

d.  The soundstage appeared bigger at first but after a couple of hours instruments were pooling round the speakers while the other voices and instruments were in a another focused field round the three PZCs to the sides and behind the racks. The soundstage was broken and no longer cohesive

e.  Bass started to get heavy and one-note

f.  Sonic disconnected the Janis W-1 Subwoofer system.  Bass became tighter and the one-note reduced a lot

g.  Sonic removed the two FS-DTs in the front corners from the room.  The room sound on BOO! shifts upward and acoustic overhang is heard

h.  Something went odd with the highs after an hour or so.  There are upper midrange details and highs as good as before or better but the overall impression is a dulled sound.  It is like playing a non-Dolby analog tape and switching the Dolby NR on

I.  The odd pressure on Sonic's ears and the strange tone made me feel a bit dizzy by which time I had enough

Obviously this is not working, so Sonic put everything back and the next music session everything sounded like it did before.

Since I was contemplating buying Aero-places or FS-PZCs and using them in this placement next to the racks,  Sonic thought I should get your views on what is going on.  Don’t want to buy these tools and end up with a mistake on my hands.

Is what I did a misuse of the FS-PZCs, where should new wood go and in what form of MGD products (aside from platforms)?

Sonic been listening to mostly analog and it sounds great.  Heard Carnatic flute pieces by Pannalal Ghosh (EMI India), String Quartets by Juan Arriaga (Musical Heritage Society), Oregon Live, J S Bach Cantatas 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 and 31 (Telefunken-Decca).

Michael, give me your thoughts on Sonic’s experience.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

At first peek, it sounds like you came really close to cracking the code on a recording then when you started moving to other recordings you noticed that you were not all that close on their codes. Trying to make your system play "all" at one setting will never happen. Some recordings will come closer to others and other recordings will seem like they are on a different planet, but all recordings have their own individual codes and flavors.

At first I was going to suggest you reset your electron movements but as I read more it sounding like you were just experiencing getting very close on one thing and creating a pressure build up on something else.

If you ever do have to do a reset, you spray a little static clean in the air and barely pick up and set back down your transformers. Or you can loosen then tighten back up your circuit panel, but I don't think that was it, and would hate to see you loose settle time.

Let me add this. The all around you thing is pretty special and not a lot of guys with hard walls have done this so if you find a way to do it on a regular bases that's pretty good.

Hi Michael

Thanks Michael for your analysis of the effect of the FS-PZCs. With the FS-DTs back where they were, the system returned to normal.

Sonic just had a listening session what just went on for hours. I played a few CDs and then a number of LPs one after the other.

The musick came through. Excellent imaging and tone. By either listening in a darkened room or in subdued lighting and looking at the front central FS-PZC, I can “see” the performers, the stage and there are enough ambient cues to hear the space is much larger that the row of performers and I am more or less in the same space as they.

Very happy with my system (for now).

Heard JS Bach’s Toccatas for Cembalo – Archiv (LP), Modern Jazz Quartet’s Echoes (LP…but a digital recording). Then with a Superphon recording of Virtuoso Compositions for Viola d’Amore by Ariosti, Vivaldi, Hraczek and Stamitz, Sonic could just sit listening and remarking “this presentation sounds real” even though truth to tell I have not heard a real viola d’amore but yes the whole presentation of the instrument with continuo sounds convincing in scale and tone meaning Sonic can imagine the real thing is about like this.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Sounds like the LTR Blocks are starting to cure. The defining of space and air start to really come alive as they cure and settle.

On repeat CD recording. Put something on, listen then leave for about an hour or two, come back and listen to how much the stage grows. Do it for longer if you get the chance. Settling should now be very nice with the blocks as old as they are.

On piano pieces the inbetween note's harmonics are something else.

Look at Hiend001's thread and see if what I say about the blocks works for you. I can dial things in and out here.

Hi Michael

Why must the turn be clockwise? What's the theoretical principle here?

BTW Sonic is trying a setting with the FS-DRTs that flank the central FS-PZC by turning them so they are perpendicular to the front wall with the absorptive sides facing to the side walls. The each FS-DRT is about a foot away from the central FS-PZC but behind it.

This is not a new thought. Michael recommended this placement of FS-DRTs years ago, the only difference now is in Sonic's system there is a FS-PZC in the middle.

Let's see if this fits an idea Sonic thinks will work.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Here's a down view of my CD Player with the blocks.



Maybe this will makes sense of what I do. See the front Right block. Sometimes I will turn it counter-clockwise and the Left one clockwise. What this does is spreads the transfer. If I do it the oposite way, shrinks the transfer. Sometimes I move the blocks closer in and sometimes to the edge, which is where they are at now.

I believe that all of this will depend on how the mass is distributed throughout the component though. With my system there is so little to it that I find myself right now anyway not needing to do a whole lot to get the basic recording signature. I'll probably be less lazy after my speaker platforms break in more, but for now watching the stage keep spreading is keeping me in a fun place.

I have Drewsters new blocks ready so I'm looking forward to you and Hiend001 and Drewster playing. Bill333 too and then when Toledo gets his I'm sure there will be a lot of different exploring going on. I should see if Garp wants some too.

Hey, we'll change our names for "tunees" to "blockheads". Oh well thought I'd try