Michael's System

Hello Michael

Glad you are expanding the product range of Tuneland even more!

A question -- if your next generation of Tuneable Woofers come with combined crossovers/plate amps will this not necessitate very long runs of interconnects to link the main amplifier/receiver to the woofer plate amp/crossover and back?

Right now I am linking my preamp to the x-30 with a 3 foot Picasso cable for the Send and then the Return cable is another 3 ft Picasso cable. There is a 5 ft Picasso that takes the subwoofer output from the x-30 to the subwoofer monoblock and a 12 foot cable to the Janis W-1 woofer itself.

Now if the Janis W-1 was changed for a cross-over/plate amp subwoofer in the same spot, the connection to and from the preamp and main (or Send and Return on the tape loop if I were using an receiver like a Sherwood) will require a pair of 14 foot Picassos for the Send to the crossover and plate amp and another 14 foot pair of Picassos back to the receiver or main amp.

Is this a good idea running such long low signal level cables instead of keeping the low level signal cables as short as possible and let the long runs be high level?

Sonic remembers that you advised me that if the choice was between long preamp to main amp cables and short speaker cables OR shorter preamp to main amp cables with longer speaker cables, the latter was preferable.

It is for this reason (which Sonic finds very comfortable logical) that I am sticking to my archaic combination of x-30, a Rotel monoblock and the Janis W-1 passive subwoofer.

Of course the audiophile world has embraced plate amp subwoofers but Sonic's thinks this is for cheap manufacturing and the compactness of using Class D amps to give lots of power, sometimes >500W. What will the characteristics of the Tuneland plate amp be?

Your views on this if you please.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Sonic said

"A question -- if your next generation of Tuneable Woofers come with combined crossovers/plate amps will this not necessitate very long runs of interconnects to link the main amplifier/receiver to the woofer plate amp/crossover and back?"

mg

The plate amp (in my system anyway) is no more than a meter from the pre-out.


in the pic above the plate amp is sitting on the platform with the Luxman 313 amplifier

This setup that Drewster and Harold did was thrown together (sounded great) but the real setup will more than likely have a platform specifically built for the Plate Amp/Cross-over. As we roll out these of course there will be more pictures, results and explanations. Since the start of this, I haven't thought of the amp being part of the woofer, as sitting near by or attached to.

The cool thing about plate amps for me are probably different than most designers. I see a plate amp as being one side (plate) to tune as opposed to a chassis. In other words it cuts out the step of taking apart.

Sonic

"Right now I am linking my preamp to the x-30 with a 3 foot Picasso cable for the Send and then the Return cable is another 3 ft Picasso cable. There is a 5 ft Picasso that takes the subwoofer output from the x-30 to the subwoofer monoblock and a 12 foot cable to the Janis W-1 woofer itself."

mg

I have and will be using the X-30 and several amps (including a MA700, in house) to use as testing references, to see how well the Plate Amps do. I'm not going to jump to any conclusions, but more looking for solutions people can buy "new". I wish I had 5 main listening rooms in the present but I'll do the best I can with 3 while doing all this listening. Saying this, some of the amps so far sound horrible, but others especially one, have surprised me. I now will need to see what I can get out of them before making any recommendations, but first impressions was enough for me to see this will be a no-brainer and a lot of fun.

Sonic

"Now if the Janis W-1 was changed for a cross-over/plate amp subwoofer in the same spot, the connection to and from the preamp and main (or Send and Return on the tape loop if I were using an receiver like a Sherwood) will require a pair of 14 foot Picassos for the Send to the crossover and plate amp and another 14 foot pair of Picassos back to the receiver or main amp.

Is this a good idea running such long low signal level cables instead of keeping the low level signal cables as short as possible and let the long runs be high level?"

mg

Yep, I don't want to say plate subs are a bad thing, cause I have only listened to a few, but I'm not too thrilled about the idea of trying to tune something that one is very dampened and two when set free from the dampening could be all over the map and constantly shaking the cross-over parts. My designs will be focused more on the positives of simplicity, but I'll stay open minded as I travel down this road. BTW I've done this before, but didn't like the sound of the amps at that time.

Plate amps are for sure on my radar, for more than subs I might add.

Sonic

"Sonic remembers that you advised me that if the choice was between long preamp to main amp cables and short speaker cables OR shorter preamp to main amp cables with longer speaker cables, the latter was preferable.

It is for this reason (which Sonic finds very comfortable logical) that I am sticking to my archaic combination of x-30, a Rotel monoblock and the Janis W-1 passive subwoofer."

mg

Even though over the years I have made my cabling more versatile and have not recently tested where the cut off point would be length wise, I tend to follow my past belief that shorter IC's and longer speaker wire will be preferable. However I feel I have a better understanding of the signal as time goes on and distances & routing of power, IC and speaker have taken on a more flexible role for me. I myself will not be placing a plate amp too close to the woofers but finding that perfect balance of lengths and performance is a door I will always keep open as every run of cable is unique.

So much to learn and the learning never stops.

requoting this

"It is for this reason (which Sonic finds very comfortable logical) that I am sticking to my archaic combination of x-30, a Rotel monoblock and the Janis W-1 passive subwoofer."

My approach is to refine the old and welcome the new. I enjoy both worlds and see that the industry is once again on the march for better sound, where for a few years high end audio was stuck in a cycle of trade offs, this newer more affordable audio offers tons of flexibilities for the exploring audiophile. The move to get out-of-the-box is right down my alley and I love that things are being made for and as kits now.

Just think 15 years ago listeners were booted from the industry if components were presented "naked". Now the non-chassis market is as big as brand name hansome chassis. These two worlds will continue to grow closer, until the brands will offer both "pre-made" and "kit" form.

Sonic

"Of course the audiophile world has embraced plate amp subwoofers but Sonic's thinks this is for cheap manufacturing and the compactness of using Class D amps to give lots of power, sometimes >500W. What will the characteristics of the Tuneland plate amp be?"

mg

All things are equal in my book Over the years I have always tried to present audio in and as choices and not a dictatorship. It would have been easy for me to have jumped on the gravy train years ago and many times, but there's something in my spirit that is built to not conform. Come rich or poor, there's that deep desire to break ground and to not settle for talk when I can be a part of (in my small or big way) the walk or even discovery. In other words I/we are the proof the audio world needs to establish the truth of, not only the hobby of audio but also the science of physics in action. RoomTune walked in and did something the industry never did before, and ever since then, the doors to discover and uncover has been laid in front of me. Where the rest of the industry drove their stakes in the ground stating this is it (their one sound), I found it more meaningful to state "the answers are in motion" and "variable tuning is the forever adjustment to a variable world".

the one thing we can bet on in life is motion

a good set of questions and comments Sonic

Hi Guys

As you know we are doing some serious Chameleon and Audolici listening as of late along with some specialty Platforms, Subs and other goodies. Mid stream today I said to Coop, we might want to show some of the Tuning Pucks before they all have a home. Kind of a family photo thing so you guys can get a feel for what we are up to. So we gathered some up, shooting some pics quick, then back into the systems they go.

take a look at some of the exotic flavors, all Nevada cured BTW

Hi Michael

Very nice those pucks really looks exotic . Could you care to elaborate more on the types of pucks that you have I remembered you mentioned previously in my thread regarding Low tone and mid tone types. I am curious to know more about it and how can I apply them to my setup.

Of course different system will need different tones of tuning pucks but it sure will be nice if can have different types/tones of tuning pucks to play and test around with.


Regards

Tj

Hi Michael

Looking at the picture in your Jan 23 post -- what is that structure attached to the Tune Square in the corner over the subwoofer?

Sonict

Hi Tj

Let me post this again so it's on the same page with my response.



What I will do is break down the descriptions and use. I have notes but want to fine tune my descriptions and applications. Also I will be sharing the new HyBrid Cone design.

I'll also do pics with products as I do my voicing.

Hi Sonic





While I was making some RT Pillow coverers I used cardstock over a few of the pillows to get started. The one in the picture is a XLT with a folded 2'x2' cardstock in front. I was planing on doing some of the other covers here to show in pictures, like I did in rm#2, but when I put this up and the same thing (only flat across) in the rear right (opposite) corner, a cool thing happened and I didn't want to change it until I had a chance to take in all the different settings in the room. There was a fun rightness. Unfortunately, when I started getting in boxes for the CES I moved things around to make room and that magic that was happening fell through the cracks

Some came back when the Plate Amp and SW10 came in, but once things are in place again, I'll need to go back through and get serious, including new and more objects at my space, need to find their "tuned" home. Literially (not kidding), if I move a box upstairs I have to adapt downstairs. So when I receive new objects too quick or too many, I start from scratch. Not that I mind "it's fun", but I hear when the pressure zones perk up and deflate and make mental note, that I shouldn't make changes until time is right. That's kinda why I didn't move ahead in that corner yet.

I'll try to take more pics this year so you guys can see the inbetweens.

Outstanding new goods from you Mr. Green You are in your GIFT I was listening tonight thinking what it must be like to have your ear, mind connection.

SCHWEET!!

Thanks Drewster

They are beauties for sure.

I guess it's a good sign when I come up to post then hear something that pulls me back down to Rm#3.

We're now working on voicing the 8-10" (82, 102) versions.

As you can see in the picture we start with the wood baffle boards (look at woofer on Brazilian pine) exposed. From this point we start doing voicing from behind till we get the voiced blend that we want. Meaning the tweeters and woofers may start off looking like a particular species till we blend the tone together from behind the plate.

On the tweeter you can see the poplar guitar body board but what you don't see is the wood voicings attached to the back of the thin plate. The woofer will end up looking the same, but we begin with the voicing species first and work our way back. Cool stuff:!:

Hi Guys

Can't believe Coop is here for only 14 more days

so So SO much to do but this is part of the fun when designing

Hearing musical harmonics spreading high and low was a lifetime experience for us Sunday. Thank you Mr. Green The Chameleon exceeded our expectations. Now what I would like to hear is the Chameleon 102 with SW10 or SW12 subwoofers. That could well be the best speaker system in the world.

TuneLand update

Hi guys, we want to thank you for your patience during our new computer setup. There might be a few bugs but looks like things are running a-OK .

Coop is here for one more week and then I get to play catchup and layout my systems. Has been a fun 2 months and I hope I'm able to express on TuneLand all or most of what took place.

stay tuned

OK I'm getting there believe it our not

I'm finding a place for all the new stuff that came in January, which took more construction here, and this should bring me to the starting gate all over again.

For those of you waiting on me to jump back into the mainstream of TuneLand posting, thank you for your patience. At the same time I hope you can sense what is going on here. When I say "everything affects everything else" these are not just words to me and somehow I separate my listening room or rooms into areas that are operational on their own. Nope far from it. I literally hear (you do as well) everything that is in our dissipative/mingling space, and neither I or anyone else can beat nature (nor should we want to) at natures physics. The blending of our space is the biggest contributor of what we hear. May I go a step further and say the environment as it is in physics is what we hear period.

It's kinda funny that we put this on the back burner even though we experience our surroundings in every way and in every moment as the overwhelming factor in all of our senses not just sound. What we feel, think, sense, learn and believe all play huge parts in what we hear. The more I see our industry try to build boxes, the happier I am that I spend most of my time outside of that box. The great fun for me over these past 2 months is not where I am in my listening, but how much I learn as something that gets moved from here to there makes a difference in the overall of everything. I wish Drewster and Coop could have been here every moment through every change, and I could grab and throw them into the chair as the moments took on life. I wish everytime I heard a special tone I could have grabbed my visitors and say "did you hear this shift from here into the soundstage". I would think what I do on my own would drive them crazy, but maybe no more crazy than all the little yet huge creations we make from what we do by accident or on purpose every day or as often as we take the time to get out of the audiophile box and into that tuning awareness that is all around us if and when we take the time to throw ourselves into that zone.

With all the changes that took place over the last 2 months, the next 2 months is when I get to enjoy and explore what we just started. I get to enjoy the harmony grow all over again as things begin to settle and gel. I must say, I love my friends when they're here, but I also love their spirit when they are gone and it's me, their spirit and of course the laws doing what they are born to do, harmonize.

"we'll build this temple brick by brick"

I love this part of the hobby:!:

All systems are now fired up and ready for me to tune. This is the most fresh wood, wire and components I have had in a while and at first I got to say I was a little scared, however this only lasted till my first blocks went in  last night, sigh

Warmed up my ears with



Even the outside system is going

While Coop was here, I wanted to redo all of my platforms to give me a wider range to choose from. As well I redid Rm#1 flooring and a bunch of other stuff so I could work on more sounds and flavors.

My equipment closet also got a redo, looks like a stereo store in there

While making more tuning tools for my rooms, I spent time listening to Rm#1's new floor curing today.



A little older Maggie player
NAD integrated amp
Viola FS Speakers

As I slowly get back in the posting groove I guess I need to try to show some of the stuff I've been doing.

One of them which has been a blast is doing heat treating. I do heat treating on all the products but going from the fresh bake straight to the system chain is shocking to listen to.

I recently did this with IEC ends and cable along with our low mass silk domes, impressive

Hi Michael,

160 fahrenheit on the silk domes I have heard about oven bake on cables and woods which you have mentioned previously but the domes is something new to me .

While others talk about cryo here you are baking it with high temperatures. Everywhere I read people are talking about cryo here cryo there from cables, cd's, fuses, breakers etc etc but I only got to know about baking stuffs when I read your post mentioning about it. Could you care to elaborate in your opinion the difference of cryo vs. bake

Regards

Tj

Hi Tj

Sorry I've been so slow at posting lately. The systems have been calling my name so much that by the time I'm done listening most of the day is gone. I get so focused on each project of design that I get obsessed (maybe possessed) and my mind hardly is able to think of anything else but that particular sound that I'm looking for, and then when I find it I'm trying to make it so others can get it too. All in all in my designing I have to throw out all rule books including my own personal taste and create things that don't sound like a stereo at all. Hard to do, but once you start finding one answer things start to have that domino effect. The trick to great designing is to always be able to start over once you learn a particular character. You might think that once you know something you can move forward from there, and with listening sometimes you can, but with designing it's a completely different level of thinking. For example, let's say I'm using one magnet and finish tuning around it. When I switch to another drivers magnet, I can't assume anything because the new set field is totally different from the last driver. Whereas other designers use dampening to smother a group of vibrations, I'm trying to use them, and because I'm looking to get more out of the source it means I must be very careful with each fundamental and harmonic relationship.

The diagram I used above is not suppose to say I only use one temperature, but to show a range of temps I enjoy using when curing and voicing. Everything has it's own code and finding them is an art and very long learning curve.

When I find time I'll talk more on the whole cryo thing from my experience. In a nut shell, I'm not a cryo guy unless I'm absolutely sure I'm willing to sacrifice soundstage space.

You would think because I'm the designer behind my tools that I would figure out a way to cheat burn in and maybe I do have some risky tricks, but there's no fooling Mother Nature

About ten or so days ago I posted that the Type 1 power cable went in system Rm #2. Well I've been waiting on Mrs. Nature to kick in ever since . During this wait I feel like Mrs. Nature has been playing with my music and ears . I keep coming in to listen and as you guys go through things have been all over the map, exhausting

Finally the Audolici A25-M and MGA IEC's blossomed. What a wait (so impatient in my old age) . At first so you know, I had the top of the line Esoteric Audio power cable in, and to be honest they sounded OK. It bugged me that they have their own sound and can't move passed that sound. Every piece of music had to sound the way the Esoteric dictated. For me listening doesn't get much more boring than having a system that makes the music all sound the same . However, the Type 1 sounded horrible with the Audolici for the first couple of days. Remember I design this stuff so I sometimes bite my own nails till that magic starts to happen . I guess it was about 3 days ago I started to hear some pretty cool stuff consistently but today I finally felt at home and the A25-M was smiling big .

Bout Time

The Type 1 IEC kill the Esoteric now and it's barely a baby in terms of breakin. So nice to be able to see the tune go beyond the high end audio's highest end goodies. Now every recording has it's own signature again. Thank the God's of music

After the first of the year scrambling of parts and pieces, my systems are starting to whip themselves into shape. A reminder to me, that even I am no match for physics. My will and ego isn't going to make a dent in my sound unless I give my will over to the fundamental forces. The Tune is built upon the foundation of physical truths. Fact is "make a change and be willing and attentive to nature is the only way to reach that next level". This last month has made me appreciate the practicality and power of physics all over again. I know I've lived in this tuning world forever but boy is it exciting to go through the experience over and over. Every time I take the time to let the method of tuning go from start to on it's way to settled I learn more about being an audiophile and being a human than yesterday.

nothing like getting out of the way of the music and letting it play

While enjoying the burnin in Rm #2 I treated myself to the pleasure of hooking up a SW-12BP downstairs (Rm #3) tonight. That means my Brazilian Pine 12" Subwoofer for those wondering what my sku names mean. I'll need to do some pics

Here's Rm#3 full of proto-types and without the specialty tweaks (like Cable Grounds) installed yet.



I'll have the SW-15b proto done next month. "maybe"

I'm using a leather chair and Jute Thud Rug. Went through 12 chairs to get to this one. I sometimes will trade out chairs depending on what my goals are. Yes I have 10 listening chairs hanging around, all with their own virtues.

They range from this one



to the comfy leather