Old Tunee - Newer System

I decided to begin a new year improving the sonics in my system (thanks to Sonic) since I continue to use most of the tuning methods offered on the old and new MGD site. Like many older members here in the US as well as other parts of the world, the economy has not helped us purchase what we want to improve our systems and rooms. I suspect many like me have been looking for diy methods to tune their systems. Many still do not have a clue about tuning their rooms as I visit many audio related websites on a dally basis. Since I have been practicing tuning for many years, I have tried many components, wires, wood plates, and room configurations to obtain the sounds that music inspires me to relax, listen, and simply to really enjoy the music that many more creative individuals than me offer to help me become a better member of this world community. As Michael might add, I probably could write a book on all of the things that I have tried. Some have been very good others have been expensive lessons. Throughout this journey, I have learned that I like single ended tube amps that don’t approach boat anchors in weight, and there are many surprises in SE design that do not have to be 2A3 or 300B expensive tube based to enjoy music.

Let me say that I will never approach the determination that Sonic attempts in obtaining sonic nirvana, because I would rather be listening to music rather than attempting to reach tuning perfection. I will continue to encourage his journey, because he has discovered many things that I already have found, and he continues to find new room tuning methods that have not been shared on either website before.

I am a tube guy. I have a tube amp, pre-amp, and phono pre-amp. With recent tuning discoveries, my cd player approaches my two turntables in music enjoyment. Despite much encouragement from my audiophile friends, I have not embarked on the PC – Dac adventure for many reasons, but I am carefully watching Drewster’s recent adventure with the V-Dac, My speakers are 96 DB efficient all plywood stand mounts using a 8” paper coaxial driver supplemented by a Michael Green Music Ply subwoofer using an Paradigm crossover. Both my preamp and SE amp are less than 10 pounds in weight encased in walnut. I use older MGD rack designs and clamp where I can for my CD player and FM tuner. I am very interested in Michael’s newer top tuning designs and will be purchasing as I can this year and next. I also have a full complement of cherry PZCs floor standing and wall mounted, sound shutters, as well as enough pillow products to tune several rooms. I also use MW, western red cedar, redwood, and many older MG isolation products. I use Michael’s ICs and speaker cables, and I use springs, MTDs, and cable grounds. When I remove these products from my system, the music decays to the point that I no longer enjoy the pleasure that music can provide me.

I have returned to this forum as a participant because Sonic’s journey proved to me that every one of us can tune our systems using what we like about our current systems without adding additional products. I really enjoy my current setup although I suspect that some of Michael’s products will help improve my system. If anyone one of you lurkers who visit this site regularly has not purchased some basic tuning products, you are seriously missing the boat to enjoying your music collection. Once I tuned my room, I discovered (expensive journey) that I did not need massive, expensive, and glamour products to obtain the best for my music enjoyment. My non audiophile and audiophile friends are amazed at how I control the sound of my room and the sound does not control me.

My posts will not be as frequent as Sonics, ha. I am hopeful that I can provide some wisdom.

Greetings Garp!

Most good to hear from you.

Sonic's tuning thinking is very similar to yours. If there is equipment that raises a smile I'll work with it. The tune by its nature is an approach and once it gets "product specific" it loses the high theoretical ground that it commands. Of course not everything is tuneable. Some designs are just plain wrong but many things can be improved by the Tune.

I am not really full of determination at this time, I have to say. My system has reached a point that is satisfying and though I am going to place an order soon for Cable Grounds and plastic rods (the resitone things that Michael has developed), some Tune-fatigue is definitely settling in Sonic's brain...how much further will I go from here, let's see....because, like you I am here for the musick. And there are centuries of wonderful musick that Sonic has not heard. With the latest set of tunes the music is wonderfully balanced and I do feel like going to buy a whole bunch of CDs of new music and just sit back and listen and listen. For instance Sonic has practically no idea what Felix Mendelsohn's music sounds like...and he is the one who started a J Sebastian Bach revival in his time.

Sonic has set up System 2. This is based on Rogers LS3/5a monitors that I have had for more than a decade. I am running this off a fairly strong transistor amp but I am looking to build this system round a P-P tube amp and maybe go retro too.

This system will be my counterpoint alongside Sonic's main tuned system to help expand my thoughts into musick reproduction.

Sonic

Welcome to your thread GARP!

It's nice to see you have a thread of your own. For me it's fun to watch people spin their own systems into existence. It is as you say a life time event that unfolds as we go. Don't forget to share some of your live listening as this has always been a highlight for me when you share this.

have a great time!!!

Since the winter weather is keeping me home this weekend, I have been playing with tuning my am-fm tuner while listening to two excellent NPR stations. I have a mid 80s slim digital tuner from Sansui which outclassed two modern tuners sonically. My purchase price of less than $100 put money in my pocket when the much more expensive tuners were sold. Unlike many popular analog or digital tuners from the 70s and 80s, this tuner is roughly 2 inches in height and 16 inches wide. It clamps nicely using springs and MW.

Unclamped, it sounds very balanced top to bottom with veiled imaging. Once clamped, everything opens up; imaging improves enabling me to hear musicians placed in the soundstage. The soundstage also has also widened beyond the speakers. Listening to this tuner this morning, it sounds much better sonically than many expensive cd based systems that my friends own.

I am looking forward to Garrison Keillors’s A Prairie Home Companion weekly radio
program broadcasted nationally on public radio this evening. As many know, Garrison got the idea for his popular program from a visit to the Ryman theater over 40 years ago to hear a Grand Ole Opry performance. He has been making annual visits to the Ryman to host his program showcasing many roots based music performers as well as providing comedy sketches and a weekly storytelling visit to Lake Wobegon. Although this show sells out quickly, my wife and I have been lucky to obtain tickets the past two years.

Recently, I added a 1960s Sherwood tubed tuner to my system. I immediately applied MGD springs and MW top and bottom and I was amazed at the sound quality. These older tuners have very narrow separation for adding your ICs, so most modern ICs will not work except Michaels. I had an extra pair of MGD ICs and the worked just right and sound great. The bass quality is really surprising from this 50 year old tuner, very detailed and fast.

I listen to two public radio stations for jazz and classical here in country land and my new but old Sherwood tuner is easily as good as my CD player for most music. It is very dynamic and exhibits a expansive soundstage with more detail than expected from a antique. Yes, old stuff can be tuned.

Hi Garp

For sure old stuff can be tuned -- I got an old Quad tuner (the FM3) and with some MW and springs this works wonders. Maybe the old devicesw work better than what ame after Hi-Fi got misguided into excessie mass and damping vibrations.

I recently read an article on Kimura of 47 Labs. And he is of the view that you can't kill vibrations in equipment but must learn to co-exist and balance them out. True this is.

Sonic

Hi Guys

Along the same line of vintage equipment, I enjoy the look of some of the simple classics that everyone use to own back in the receiver days. In many ways these units look better than their high end replacements. I mean if your going to make a compromise and keep the face plates on it's hard to beat the look of the silver and glass fronts of these. For me it's kinda like owning a AR turntable and a simple receiver pushing paper drivers.

Something I do is take an old classic, move the transformer outside of the box, replace the top with a light weight brown colored mesh, pop the now 5Lb unit up on springs and plug a Magnavox DVD player next to it or use the tuner.

Second systems can be a blast and have surprisingly decent sound.

Sonic and Michael,

I am sorry that I have not responded more promptly, but I have been busy with the arrival of a new grandson, a future Tunee. He does not have much choice in the matter as his father, grandmother, and grandfather are devoted music lovers. I have been listening to my tuner more these days.

As Drewster has been updating us on his progress with the dacs and pcs and music, I have been busy (between changing diapers) listening to very lightweight tube amps using a sub four pound tube preamp. I have been currently enjoying a 10 lb two tube (13EM7) direct heated triode, 2.5 watt tube amp which has more extension in bass and treble than most 2A3 and 300B tube amps that are worshipped by those SET audiophiles. And yes, it tunes quite easily and does not have the cost of a typical 300b or 2A3 tube amp. In fact, this amp can be purchased on the used market for less that many exotic 300B tubes.

I also have an exotic 14 pound 45 amp that is able to put out a mere 3 watts, pretty good for a 245 or 45 tubes. Since I am not in the market for the exotic new generation 45 tubes retailing $400 - $600, I have been using tubes of the late 30s to 50s at far less than the $400 price range. If I lived only in midrange, this would be my amp of choice, but the amp above outclasses this amp in extension of bass and treble and uses tubes that cost less than Sonic’s 12AX7s. Yes, as I grow older and wiser, good sound can be obtained at much less than many audiophools will ever admit, except us Tunees.

My last amp is a push pull 14 pound tube amp using 4 EL84 and 2 12AX7 tubes putting out 35 watts per channel. This amp’s overall sound can be described as solid state sounding but with the benefits of tubes (slight sweetness, large soundstage before tuning, and detail, detail, detail before tuning). And yes, I am finding that it loves to be tuned. Michael and I have talked about this amp in the past, because it is not a new design. It has been around on the market since the early 90s. The more I listen to this amp, my appreciation of my classic music collection grows. It has the power to expand the headroom to capture the dynamics of a full orchestra and easily allow me to hear individual performers in my system and tuned room. Does it allow me to capture the intimacy of music in smaller groups compared to the amps above? No, not without a lot of tuning.

My point to this post is music lovers can feel comfortable using low mass equipment to start their tuning experience. It does not have to be high dollar expenditures as Drewster and Michael often point out. And, many will be perfectly happy just using Michael’s basic room tuning tools to improve music enjoyment. I do heartily support Michael’s recommendations of using lower mass equipment whether it is vintage or modern for better sound and music enjoyment. Michael’s wire (speaker cables and interconnects) represent high sonic value. Both Sonic and Michael inspire all of us to push forward in ultimate tuning of our rooms and equipment, but most who read this thread do not have the time or desire to approach what these Tunee Masters accomplish. And, that is OK. Many will find my love and acquisition of tube equipment as excessive as we read about the extremes in tuning, but if you really, really love music than none of this will make sense.

Michael,

I know you have read about the floods here in Nashville that now is approaching $2 billion dollars in damage closing the Grand Ole Opry and Opryland Resort hotel for maybe eleven months. Downtown Nashville was hurt very badly including the Schermerhorn Symphony Center which will require major renovations to reopen. Your old shop would have sustained major water damage and your car probably would be useless depending on where you parked. The Ryman was just high enough to avoid damage. Many vintage instruments stored near the river in underground vaults have suffered from major flood damage. These instruments were owned by the Whose Who in country, jazz, pop, and classical.

Many musicians have participated in benefits to help those in need in Nashville. It has been amazing about the local support of neighbors helping neighbors clean up after this major mess. Although I am not originally from Nashville, I am proud to live here to see humanity at its best. And the music has returned to Music City.

Tonight, I am listening to Santana Abraxas which I have not listened in about 12 years on LP. Humidity is right at 55% outside, but my dehumidifier has the the humidity at 39% in my listening room. Amazing!

Peace!

Hi GARP

First congratulations on the Baby that's fantastic news!!

I've been up to my eye balls in wood voicing a tunable room and have not kept up.

WOW!! I'm going to the news right now to see what's up with Nashville

It has been awhile since I posted on my system. For most of this fall, I work long hours both at home and work, so I often use my system for background music while working at home at night and the weekends. I have been using a very lightweight 2A3 tubed amplifier rated at about 3.5 watts per channel sitting atop two MGD cable lifters with my very efficient 96 db coaxial speakers with a special cabling from the 2A3 amp outputs to the Paradigm crossover inputs for connection to the MGD subwoofer amp. I am using regular ICs from the 2A3 to the preamp. I have found that running the sub crossover from the main amps outputs to be superior sonically to running via the preamp. It is much easier to integrate the sub to the main speakers.

I have a pair of MGD Music Ply 60 speakers collecting dust in my audio toy closet for a long period of time. Michael has told me that the 60s will work with SET amps, but I have never used the 60s with the 2A3 SE amp until last night. To my surprise, the 60s could easily achieve high 80 DBs with out using maximum preamp gain. While I realize that headroom would be limited with this arrangement as the 2A3 cannot provide the power for large scale orchestra or complicated music, this 2A3/60 combo can be used for much of the music that I enjoy.

So, I am listening to the Music Ply 60s and Sub with much better than expected sonic results. I have always been a tube guy, so I admit that I like the colorations that tube amps can offer especially single ended triodes. I played several CDs last night to allow the new combinations to settle. This morning, I have been pulling out my favorite Christmas music as we head into the holidays. One of my favorite albums is Moya Brennan’s An Irish Christmas. This album is a collection of traditional Christmas music with Irish harp, Uilleann pipes, whistles, flute, Bouzouki, and drums. The balance between bass and treble is much better than I anticipated. Moya’s voice floats and is especially good on Silent Night using the 60s. This is my favorite Silent Night of many versions that I have collected. I have used a heavy push pull tubed amp with the 60s in the past and did not like the sonic results, but the single ended/60 combination is much better.

I have decided to keep this system in place throughout the holidays as I will have a lot more time to critically listen and allow the system to settle. I can hear Michael thinking to himself, I told you so. HA.

In my last post, I commented on my placement of my Music Ply 60s back in my system. Keep in mind that these speakers have not been used previously in my new house and have been kept in storage in my music closet. I have been using the 60s for over a month with two tube amps, a push pull and a singled ended. These amps are not vintage in the same sense that Sonic has described in his thread. As a member of the Hong Kong Audio Club, I enjoy the posts of those members that lust over very old tube amps and nos tubes. Anyway, I now better understand why MGD speakers work well with his other products. More specifically, all of the tuning parts, room treatment, racks, springs, lightweight components, and the wire work very well together and make tuning much easier. I can almost hear the older tunees who use the 60s or other MGD speakers chuckling. I believe the 60s were designed for a lazy tuner like me. You place them properly, let them settle, and there is not much that you can complain about sonically.

Now that my 60s have settled in my room with a 25% humidity level, I have really enjoyed this little sonic trip with all forms of music this past month. By the way Sonic, I have my FS PZCs set up just as you have described in your recent post. Yes, I also receive a consistent focus in the images across the width of the soundstage all the way to the sides and the front corners. My push pull tube amp is voiced as slightly on the lean, fast, accurate and the linear side of the common tube fence, combining the strengths of both solid state and tubes. It is better on bass and larger dynamic swings. I use this amp when I listen to more complex or classical orchestra music. However, when I listen to acoustic music or music with the human voice, I prefer the single ended amp. With the 60s, images are rock solid in the soundstage using a single ended amp, and you can feel the halos around each performer whether it is a musical instrument or human voice. I really enjoy the 60s with acoustic instruments, violin, viola, cello, acoustic guitars, really all wood instruments allowing the listener to get closer to live music. I had forgotten the strengths of the 60s which I call the Swiss knife of the MGD speaker line. It works well with most equipment.

By the way Sonic, I read your post regarding 12AX7 tubes, which are the driver tubes in my pp amp. I have read good things about two new production 12AX7 tubes, the Shunguang Pavane and the Genalex. The Pavane’s are described as very quiet and have a very balanced smooth sound. Highs are extended but not edgy and the bass is very tight. The Genalex are described as having a very bold warm sound. Both tubes have been described as very well made. While, I have not heard either tube, I will probably purchase the Pavane’s when I need to re tube my drivers if the review comments remain positive.

Hi there Garp!

I've made a variation on my DRT placement that you might want to try. Do have a look at my thread. What I did was place the DRTs ahead of the racks in a V pointing to the listening chair, reflective sides facing the sidewalls.

I'll try the Genelex or Pavanes 12AX7s in my Pioneer which is due for a re-tube. For the 6BM8s I'll look around -- if I find a set of NOS Hitachi or GEs it would be nice.

Sonic

Hi GARP

Not chuckling but smiling big that you are using them. After all the playing I have done over the last while and listening to the 60s myself in this latest tunable room I've decided to put focus back on them and not chase so many speaker adventures.

Hi Garp

Sonic has started my CD player--DAC adventure with a 2003/4 Sony DVD player and the Musical Fidelity V-DAC. Compared to the processor of my old DVD player, the 24/192 kHz upsampling V-DAC is miles ahead in grain-free sound.

I have a Samsung P291 DVD player around my place but it doesn't sound as musical and right as the old Sony. I know Drewster gets good music out of it but mine could be marginal in performance as it skips/mutes for a few moments on two of my favourite discs -- Bach's English Suites for Harpsichord (Erato) and English record consort musick (BIS). Seems to work OK with everything else but it could be marginal. Got it really cheap in a sale almost a year ago -- about US$25 for it.

Computer-DAC is out there somewhere just that I'll need to get a dedicated computer for the job with just the OS and the programs to play CDs outputing the digital signal via USB. The FLAC/Red Book files should be on a remote hard disk and the computer should have litterally no other programs (no excel/word/powerpoint/picture manager) and no data other than the music to sound the best.

I wonder if Michael is ready to show what he has done to tune a PC. He said he had gear and procedures to do just that if I recall.

Sonic

Sonic,

I am happy to see that you are making some progress with the V-Dac. There are many users of this dac who are satisfied with its sonic character not ever experiencing the tune, so I have confidence that you will maximize it.

As you may have discovered, there are many camps divided between the use of dacs, computer os and music ripping. Mac versus Windows. Non oversampling versus oversampling. The list goes on and I find computer audio adds an additional set of problems for my listening habits. When you consider computer music, you have many factors to consider some of which you point out in your post. If you have a huge music library like me, you must consider the time and space required to convert your music library. Setting up a computer library as well as maintaining it with proper back-ups requires a great deal of time and patience as well as some ongoing technical knowledge. Good computer music is not plug and play option which must further be tuned. My current cd library exceeds 5 TB and my LP library probably is 2 – 3 TB, so we are talking major storage and backup to protect this collection for computer use. Given these considerations, I am strongly leaning to maintaining my old fashion audio LP and cd playback systems. Many of my friends as well as many in the audiophile community have converted to computer music, but I am finding that the time to set up and maintain these systems takes away from my time to enjoy music.

I am happy Michael has had a chance to hear the Altmann products in Bill333’s system. The Altmann dac and amp have been of interest to me since I first experienced both independently in friends system over the past few years, and I always felt these were hidden tuning gems. They can both can be purchased used for a fraction of retail these days as many cannot accept these bare bone tools without heavy wooden or metal enclosures. I will be watching the continued journey of Bill333’s system evolution and his use of the Altmann products as these are high on my list for future purchase. Now, if I could find a lightweight transport that I did not have to strip down to get the most out of the tune.

Hi Garp

Appreciate the caution -- for sure computer musick is in all our futures to some extent especially with flash storage devices but right now it is ust something I may try out but know the CD player and LP sources are going to sound light years ahead. Thie V-DAC is nice and I might get an improved player like an inexpensive blu-ray player (Oppo?) and use it as a transport with the digital coax output driving the V-DAC.

Sonic

Hi Zone

It's a fun thing for me to see the different systems on TuneLand. We all have our own taste and qualities that make us a little different than the next but at the same time we have been drawn together by the common theme of tuning. I talk about how there are so many products out there that get in the way of the sound but very rarely do I talk about products that are built with a whole package in mind. If I was asked to name a designer that has the tube feel, look, and sound it would have to be Rodger Modjeski. I am a huge fan of Rodger's products and his persona. Rodger is a soft sell that is so comfortable in his own skin that when you meet him you feel like you are in the presence of high end audio royalty. Looking at the history of tube gear Rodger falls in line with the very best of the best. When I had my stores there were very few lines I got as excited about having a chance to carry as I did Music Reference.

I have to be honest, and don't know if this will happen, but when I get a private message from GARP saying he's thinking about having me make some things for Rodger's gear it gets the blood pumping.

Since there are many posting besides Sonic, I decided to jump in and offer my $.02.

Tuning has been happening in my room over the holidays. I have arranged my floor standing PZCs in the same configuration as illustrated in Drewster's system, recently. I have placed a small tube integrated amp in a cut down stand with the CD player placed below the amp and top tuned. This stand is only 18" floor to top shelf and sits in front of the PZCs. My turntable is in a rack behind the PZCs.

I had used this configuration in my old house and did not like it. My current room is much larger which allows me to position the speakers and equipment much better. I am using what Michael calls a classic set up with drywalls, etc.

Like Drewster, I have been using a MGD sub until the recent changes were completed. With the new arrangement, I am getting plenty of bass without the sub. My next step may be ordering the new cones for my CD player and amp.

The dynamics are back. The sound is surrounding again and the musicians are placed nicely in the soundstage. Vocalists are much more distinct. Instruments have a much better decay when the recording is capable of presenting it.

I am spending this New Year's Eve enjoying music. I hope everyone has a Happy New Year, tuning!

Happy New Year!

Nice report, I love it when someone says surround as this is a language that tunees understand more than other listeners.

Nothing like being inside the music envelope.

It has been quite some time since my posting, but it does not mean I have not been listening and playing. I have been experimenting with several diy projects including mini platforms, nos and upsampling cdps, floor platforms and finally the little Magnavox DVD player. My amplication has become simple using two small tubed integrated amps. One has EL84 power tubes; the other uses 6V6 power tubes with both using dual 6x4 rectifier tubes. One uses E80CC input tubes while the other a 6072A microphone tube. Despite their limited power 4 - 8 watts per channel both have excellent balance top to bottom with surprising bass only achieved with the Magnavox DVD player. Non oversampling players do get the mid range right, but can't reproduce bass or treble in my system. Oversampling players even those with promise of analogue sound disappoint with their overbearing digital glare resutling in listening fatigue.

Recently, I pulled out the little $29.95 Magnavox DVD player, removed the top and placed on my mini rack sitting atop MGD generation one cones and MW. Wow, what have I been missing with my other expensive CD players? Bass, smooth treble, musicality with plenty of detail. Listener fatigue is gone and bass has returned. Like Sonic, removing my sub has been an eye opener. Nice, clean bass which balances much better in my listening room. Simple is good.

Michael, I guess it is really time to move to your current generation of mini platforms and mini clamps. I will contact you soon.

Hi GARP

Great to hear from you! I'm so glad to see you have put the Maggie to the test. People who have been passing up this treasure are missing out on what I feel is one of the biggest discoveries in high end audio today. I quite frankly have never heard a player produce the depth that the Maggie gives. It has a richness that beats up on the others. Glare is indeed the sound of the more expensive competition as they seem to lock in to a midrange sound that they can't get out of and adds a coating to the music. If the glare were gone and some only wanted to focus on the midrange (a typical fault of the high end audio world) I could see using these other units, but after listening awhile I beg for the sound of the maggie again. It is the closest thing to the good part of the vinyl sound that I have ever heard.

Thanks for the input as I feel this is something serious listeners should be focused on. The Maggie in my book sets the tone of the rest of the system and makes life much easier to find those wonderful attributes in the music not found by others. There is one tricky part to the magic and that is the unit must be tuned to the right balance transfer wise. Once it is there is a clarity and realism that jumps out and makes me forget about parts and that there is a system playing at all.

To sum it up for me the Maggie has the whole picture but the highs and lows of it over shadow the midrange till the magic transfer is found for a particular room and setup. I have heard this done several times to let me know that the whole picture can be found but I am also aware that it is not necessarily automatic. When listening to the Maggie there is "more" and with that more comes a little tweaking, but once done there is so much music that it makes the expensive audiophile-ish units sound like they are missing most of the content.

Hi there Garp!

Nice to see that you have moved over to the Simple Side....and with tube amps no less!

Simple systems with tubes could be the ultimate. I remember someone observing that high efficiency speakers driven with low powered amps could be the door to real musick.

Sonic in the meantime reached a good balanced state of tune at end last month but after listening to hours and hours of music, I found some residual room resonances that are now more audible. So I am struggling against these in my room whose signature stands out now that other problems have been solved.

Sonic is searching (or may have found) for the solution to steady up the acoustic of my room without damping things.

For now I really can't be sure if I have hit the core problem or a dealt with a secondary issue that is a reflection of a deeper problem but the answer. Think Sonic might be homing in....

Sonic

Michael,

I am interested in learning your tweaking tricks for the Maggie. Right now the Maggie is really loading my room with bass and the mid bass is more distinct at the expense of midrange and treble. While the midrange and treble are not bad, the bass is very prominent. Yes, I would like some balance. Soundstage is good for height and depth with sound extending outside the boundaries of my speakers. By the way, I have been listening to Nashville’s new singer/songwriter duo darlings, The Civil Wars and their Barton Hollow gold album. Very nice work – excellent voice blending and instrumental work. This is not country, more like folk. I did not know this album had bass until I inserted the Maggie. I will be seeing them live before they head to Europe.

Anyway, what do you recommend for tuning the Maggie?

Hi GARP

I'm jealous as usual over Nashville. Vegas is my favorite town with the exception of those wonderful venues you get to take in at such intimate settings in Nashville. Those that don't understand Nashville are missing out an experience that is un equaled with maybe "maybe" the exception of Austin, which I have only heard about.

The Magnazox is extremely tunable from several different views. 1 is to take it all apart, second is to remove the top, and surprisingly as is with the power cable replaced. I've tweaked it all 3 ways and easily become content with all 3. People will have to decide on their own how they wish to do it. If you are not looking to fuss with the total take down I make a replacement top plate for the unit that makes it easy to top tune. When top tuned the balance of the Maggie snaps into place.