Old Tunee - Newer System

Hi Garp

Moving away from the heavy racks to "platforms" made improvements to the sound. Better cohesion of the soundstage across its width and front to back. Some of this may be doe to the racks splitting up and dividing the stage.

Another benefit is to Sonic -- the equipment now being so low to the ground means I have to do push-ups to check for alignment and do adjustments while on the ground.

Good exercise and when I get real platforms they will be low to the ground too. So more exercise for Sonic which is good for me. True platforms have excellent sound and anything excessively tall will split the soundstage but Sonic wonders how will a platform-based system be adjusted and maintained by tunees who may have back problems, neck problems, knee or age-related issues.

Sonic

Sonic,

Yes, there are added advantages of low platforms for improving the fitness of we older tunes. As an older tunee, I find it harder to pedal 100 miles on a bicycle bent over the handlebars as I do in warmer months, or pedal up several difficult grade hills in 30 degree weather with a 20 mph headwind as I did yesterday for 30 miles. Bending over to turn on my amp and insert a cd in the Maggie is no problem at all, and the added musical enjoyment is priceless.

This past week I set up my MR preamp and MR 245.1 amp for the first time using the mini platform.  The addition of another shelf out front of the other shelves was suspended about 6 inches off the floor.  The preamp was placed atop the second Maggie platform that Michael included with the Maggie platform with the mini platform placed behind the preamp with the MR 245.1 amp sitting atop the mini platform. I have a turntable “table” supporting two turntables (Merrill Heirloom and Acoustic Solid Small Machine) placed directly behind the lower shelves.  Like Sonic has posted, adding more than one source is problematic for easily adjusting the components in the music chain, but I have some ideas for my set up that should help down the road.  Michael, don’t forget to see my PM regarding the TT table.

Now to the music.  The mini platform has really opened the potential for the 245.1 4 watt amp, and the sonics are the best that I have experienced with the amp in my room.  The MR components, Maggie, and Tonian speakers reproduce musical instruments much closer to real, maybe unnaturally so.  Piano is scary real with decays that never end and you the percussion of the keyboard is amazing.  There seems to be a better tonal balance than I noticed before.  Bass is much improved for a 45 tubed amp. I am one happy camper with addition of the mini platform.  

I have been using up vacation time the last few days, so I have spent long hours listening to this set up with Christmas music as well as other favorites on cd and vinyl.  In addition to all music forms of Christmas albums from blues to bluegrass, I have been enjoying jazz, pop, and small chamber works.  A very enjoyable break from work.  This morning, I have been listening to the group, Over the Rhine, from my home state, Ohio.  This group will be performing live in one my favorite clubs tonight, and I have tickets.  I hope everyone enjoys the upcoming holidays listening to lots of music.

I'm jealous     I wanta go with you   

Man how I miss those little venues.



Happy Holidays  

I just wanted to add a follow-up to my best live 2013 music experience, Over the Rhine live at 3rd and Linsley.  This club has had a major makeover since Michael lived in Nashville.  It has much better acoustics as well as stage placement and sound equipment.  I have not heard Over the Rhine live in recent years, but their latest album, Meet Me at the Edge, is their best work.  The singer/song writing team of Karin Bergquist and Linford Detweiler have added some very talented session players including Eric Heywood on pedal steel and lead guitar, Jay Bellerose on vintage 40s Slingerland drums dressed in rosewood,  Jennifer Condos on bass, and Nicholas Radina on guitar and cuatro.  When you listen to this group, you will hear flavors of jazz, blues, gospel, country as well as folk.  Like you know who, they do their best work while working independently.  There latest album was funded by their fans, recorded on the band’s own label with all songs of their own material.

I was fortunate to get a seat in the balcony overlooking center stage.  The sound surrounded me to the point that I felt like I was home in my tuned room, but no system can take the place of a live performance.  Eric Heywood’s pedal steel was amazing and often sounded like it was coming from behind me. Jay Bellerose’s drums provide a nice warm but powerful backing (He was the drummer on the Alison Krause/Robert Plant album).  The vocals of Karin and Linford were great.  They performed a long set comprised of old and new material with their original Christmas songs.  They also played two new songs they are recording for a 2014 Christmas album.  This was a nice early Christmas present!

  WOW   

nice   

Sonic, I have been watching your frustration with the tune recently and getting back on a promising tuneful path. Like you, I have had some frustration with my bass response using my small Music Reference components. My 2.5 Watt amp does not seem to have the satisfying bass response that I would like, but you can only go so far with 2.5 watts without using a sub. Despite the lack of deep bass, I have been treated with some of the best soundstage and tonality to date in my listening room. I credit the mini platform for this musical enjoyment. Using these very lightweight tube components makes it very easy to set up the MGA signature sound.

Michael, I have also been playing with my turntable table. Initially setting up one of my turntables on the table with no additional wood underneath, I was disappointed with the sound. Hard, grainy midrange with upper bass suck out. I placed the pine board that you sent me a few years ago to set up under the turntable rack, and WOW! The sound had an immediate improvement. I am continuing to allow this change to settle, but I have been listening to LPs all day enjoying the music. I will get back with your off-line about the sound board for setting atop this table.

Hi Garp

This is pretty much what I am finding here as well.

I have this thing for picking up solid wood tables. Mainly because I use them to lay out wood on but occasionally I'll use one for a resting table under a setup kinda like a sub platform for the platform to rest on. What I have found is that even the best sounding of them don't have the lowest of low tones going on. That means the low bass suffers and there seems to be not enough push or effortless gain. Setting one of the new platforms on top of them though makes a big difference. Even bigger difference is I built a table like I do the platforms and then built a platform to sit on top of it. Not only did the bottom drop but the cymbals turned into these midrange splashers and horns became liquid and full instead of hard.

I need to look for more pics of Bill333's equipment platform to share cause that's the idea. The table is with redwood and a Argentine Pine top, then a Platform that rest on this. If I had a bigger upstairs room I'd be doing this for sure. The one I made here (now taken apart) looked like a coffee table, then a plaform on top.



I played with Magic wood slats between the top and bottom along with other things including the spike configuration of 3 points. Everything I used really made a huge difference and I was able to get about any flavor I wanted. This thing pretty much smashed the sound of the tables I had bought and tried. It weighs BTW about a forth of the other tables I used, no doubt the secret.



Another one I made (above) had a B Pine frame with the Redwood running front to back like suspended joists. It doesn't go as far off the ground though 12".

Anyway thought I would share this as it looks like the table platform combo is going to be something folks look at.

Sonic’s recent posts regarding re-introducing a sub into his system has been of interest to me. As I have recently posted, the Music Reference tubed amp and pre-amp have been playing now for three weeks, but settling continues. The combined weight of these wood encased components is less than 12 pounds which is much lighter that most solid state and tubed equipment. The amp sits atop the smaller of the two Maggie platforms which has been placed atop the mini platform. The preamp has been placed atop a Magic Wood Cable Ground. The sound and harmonics continue to improve each day with the amp seemingly increasing in volume despite only 2.5 watts per channel.

This morning I read Michael and Sonic’s conversation regarding the addition and set up of a sub in a tunable system. Since I did not have either the lp or cd of Fleetwood Mac’s Rumors album handy, I pulled out the cd, Raising Sand/Robert Plant/Alison Krauss. I have not listened to this CD since inserting the Magnavox CD player into my system as I thought that drummer, Jay Bellerose’s drums completely dominated the CD in negative way with a typical highend CD player. I recently commented on seeing Jay Bellerose with another group in a recent live performance which gave me a better perspective of his playing style. Listening to the Raising Sands cd this morning with Maggie, I can finally get into this cd. While bass has improved without using a sub, the album no longer is dominated by the bass drowning out the other fine players on this album. There is finally a good balance in the sound. While Bellerose’s percussion is still prominent, it does not overshadow the other performer’s contributions and I am enjoying this CD for the first time. It is truly amazing the level of detail the Maggie is able to dig out of the cd.

I am really looking forward to adding the tabletop platform and a smaller platform. These recent products have lifted the Tune to another level. Sand away Michael, sand away.

Hi Garp

Sonic has heard so much about the legendary Mullards but in my system I found them giving a bit too much mid bass. So did Sonic hear from the experience with the EL34 p-p monoblock amp. I tis a good one with 4 EL34s per side giving 60W into 8 ohms -- it is a US brand whose products Sonic uses in my system too.

Usually the audiophiles I hang out with do not comment on the midrange dullness that you and Sonic mention. They call the sound slow. Whatever it is, tubes have a sound and I suspect the reason why we are commenting on this sound is because we no longer have tone controls in our systems or if we have, are afraid to use them....  

I have a Pioneer amp with 6BM8s which I drive my Fostexs with. Most of the time it does duty as a phono stage with EQ for my 78s and SPs. It is nice and gives out 7W or so.

My Experiment has come to a halt thanks to the quality of TJ (Tianjin) Full Music tubes -- see more in my post. This is the second time it happened...

Sonic

garp wrote:

Sonic,

Yes, there are added advantages of low platforms for improving the fitness of we older tunes. As an older tunee, I find it harder to pedal 100 miles on a bicycle bent over the handlebars as I do in warmer months, or pedal up several difficult grade hills in 30 degree weather with a 20 mph headwind as I did yesterday for 30 miles.  Bending over to turn on my amp and insert a cd in the Maggie is no problem at all, and the added musical enjoyment is priceless.

I love this post   

This should be framed.

Hi Garp

Any thoughts on my Rega P5 adventure and the VTA setting? I also got a feeling that given Rega's design goal to make cartridges "work harder" as they put it and their preference for cartridges with a flat tops to fully contact with the RB700 headshell surface, the Shure with its U-shape mounting (where the tops of the U attach by screws to the arm), this may not be the best match for the RB700....I might as well go for a cartridge that is both shorter in height and has full surface contact.

Denons fit the bill, some of the Audio Technicas which I have come to like, the Ortofon MCs, the Dynavector MCs and of course Rega's own cartridges. Of course there is stuff priced over the moon but Sonic is not going there...what if I break it during mounting or miscue it and the stylus slips off the edge of the LP...bad dreams are made of these....

Sonic

Sonic,

I have a modified Rega arm, the Michell TecnoArm on one of my TT which has a VTA adjustment included. The problem with the standard Rega arms is the lack of easy VTA adjustments which has been addressed by many product offerings adding VTA adjustment. I have many audio friends with Rega tables, who have purchased the VTA additions, but I cannot give you any recommendations.
In addition to VTA adjustments for cartridge changes, I find the thickness of the LPs requires changes in VTA. The newer produced LPs seem much thicker than those produced when vinyl was king. Changing the VTA for newer releases is required to maximize the sound.

Hello Garp

Certainly Sonic needs a shim device if I am to keep using the Shure. The difference in stylus distance from the lower surface of the Rega RB700 is 5mm between the Shure M97xE and a standard Rega cartridge -- the Shure being the taller cartridge. That's a lot, more than just a thinner mat can compensate for.

Sonic knows there are several devices to shim the arm. I am looking at a Rega accessory that allows you to raise the arm by 2, 4 or 6mm by turning it and bolting the arm through it to the plinth. The other option is to get a new cartridge.

I'm having a look tomorrow.

Sonic

There is so much going on in Tuneland or outside Tuneland. Outside Tuneland the Sochi games show us lots of snow (Much of the snow is man made). I am sure Bill333 and Drewster know about snow and how cold this winter has been. We have had too much cold weather here in southland too which has limited my bike riding to less than 500 miles this year. So what to do? Listen to a tuned system of course and you will be glad you did.

Michael is excited! I am always happy when Michael is excited, because it means new toys? His post this morning regarding the new speaker development caught my interest. Keep us updated on the progress.

Sonic is happy. Rega with shims are helping him enjoy his LP collection. I will be listening to lps later this evening.

Bill333 is working on better sound with his tube amp. I have enjoyed his updates and hope the changes break in for him.

Me? I am enjoying a Dire Straits album as I write this update. My 8 watt SEP integrated returned from a checkup last week, and it is surrounding me in excellent MGD room tuning sound with better bass than I have experienced in awhile. I am feeling strong bass notes pound into my chest from an 8 watt tubed integrated in a 22’ x 20’ tuned listening room and I am amazed.

Good listening, everyone.

Just a quick update. I have placed the MP MGD 60s back in my main system using the Eico HF 81 integrated and MGD speaker wire.
I have also taken out of my listening room the MP MGD sub and returned the sub placed a top a light weight platform with the woofer cone even in height with the 60s midrange driver.

Without the sub, bass energy was good but not balanced with the midrange/treble. With the passive sub (not connected to an amp), bass was very forceful and provided a fuller, balanced sound. I could feel the bass notes on some albums push into my chest. Oh yes, the Eico sits atop the mini platform with the low tonewood. The amp actually sits atop the smaller Maggie platform on top of the mini platform. As the system settles, the volume seems to increase in my room. Michael, I do need to top tune the Eico as it continues to amaze me with the 60s.

More to come with more settling, but this is by far the best the 60s have sounded in my listening room. MGD 60s and a 1950 tube integrated may become my main system.

This is exciting!

Keep letting it settle and if you end up hearing it get un-ruley, like out of control BIG, then the top tuning you will want. If not you might be fine. See where the open area is on the amps circuit board? If you get a chance take a small piece of pine or magic wood and place it there and tell me what you hear.

top tuning?

It will depend on how big things get and also how well the amp vibrates in that area. My guess is yes, a light tuning board with a light transfer rod.

Lot's experimenting in the Garp household. The Eico integrated now sits atop MGD cones with small/thin MW and western red cedar between the cones and bottom of the amp. Since this is a pre 70s amp, there are no circuit boards which may be an advantage sonically. The tubes have been replaced to provide a more linear sound with very got results. Adding the brass cones did take the amp up several notches for clarity also helping provide the MGD 3D sound on most albums. The balance from bass to treble is very good, with the passive MGD sub really supporting the deep and mi bass bass sound in my room. I really like this antique amp. Michael, a light top tuning platform may squeeze additional performance from this amp.

Today, I have been enjoying a great number of lps to sort out the sound. I am using a small battery powered phono amp encased in wood weighing just 23 ounces. While this phono amp offers the blackest background of any phono stage that I have experienced, the bass seemed to be muzzled. Since the smaller platform of the two platforms that Michael supplied for my Maggie CD player was not in use, I placed it under the phono amp and the bass balance immediately improved! Wow, Michael, I may need to obtain a dedicated phono preamp platform with top tuning. I really like this amp, because it really can sort out complex classical pieces like Sonic enjoys. By the way Sonic, one of my turntables has an aluminum platter with both acrylic and leather tops and the other table has an acrylic platter with cork on top. Until I can listen to both tables at the same time with the same cartridge, I will withhold comments about which may be best in my listening room. Currently enjoying Linda Ronstadt's 3 lp Around Midnight album. Linda and big band is a sleeper. The Beatles Hey Jude and Steely Dan's Gaucho were played earlier.

Hi Guys

Just wanted to jump in GARP land for a moment. I was playing with GARP's top board. Wow! The rewards of letting this wood cure.

Also for Turntable lovers, I believe I have a table Platform design that is really going to smoke. I laid the parts out and this is beautiful. The transfers work amazingly  

There is one pain, and that is getting to the center tuning bolt if the table is on the Platform, but if this can be lived with and the person doesn't mind finding the adjustment and placing the table on and off, this is heaven.

a lot of fun   

What's it look like?

This looks so appealing, Sonic emailed Mr Cooper about it   

Michael and all,

I have been enjoying a lot of music recently as a result of many recommendations offered here in recent months. Michael started exploring some new music thanks to Harold. Sonic continues to offer excellent classical works and Hi End may closely match my music tastes in jazz/easylistening. I have everything Bob James has ever produced both lp and cd. This morning, I have been enjoying two CDs, Emmylou Harris, Wrecking Ball and Oh my as Michael recently commented.

I am currently listening to Hiroshima, Obon. Hiroshima is a California based group that can be described as East meets West contemporary jazz, but its large catalog borrows on the early popjazz/R&B sound of the early 70s. I have written about this group before, because most of their albums often seem like they were recorded in Q sound or like they were meant to be played in a tuned system. As a starting point, I recommend listening Obon. If you like it, move on to other albums to see how this group has evolved since beginning in 1974.

This morning I happened upon Stereophile's Art Dudley's recent column. This new Dudley offering sounds so much like Michael that it is scary. Dudley compares the Arts and Crafts movement to early high end audio artisan offering affordable hi fi. He comments "the artist and craftsman was one and the same, and where most consumers could afford to live with goods of genuine quality—not for materialism's sake, but out of the simple desire for the beauty of human creation". Does this sound like what Michael is attempting to do? (By the way Michael, when I moved to my new house, I brought a few arts and crafts pieces with me, selling all that those walnut antiques replaced by cherry arts and craft pieces offered by the Amish) Dudley remains mainstream in his artisan examples of todays artisan products like Shindo, Magnepan, Rega, etc. as he must, but it is refreshing to read.

Hi Garp

I can remember friends and clients saying it's to hard to push the tune to the audiophiles. My comment back was, "where else are they going to go". It's only a matter of maturity as an industry and as that calling happens in each one of us to seek "truth" rather than what is pushed by people to stuck to move forward themselves. Many leaders are only followers in disguise.

Our voice is bigger than we think, because we are only reinforcing what has always been there waiting for us to discover it.

good to see you   

Greetings Garp!

Sonic read Art Dudley's piece too and liked it particularly his hypothesis of why LPs sound better even if the recording they were cut from is digital -- the idea that unlike CDs and magnetic tape, LPs (yes, also by extension EPs and SPs) sound different and more full because they alone generate a voltage from the grooves driving the cartridge. This is an intriguing idea.

You are right Dudley prefers Magneplanars, Shindo and holds them up as examples of artisanal audio devices. I like the sentiment of Winey, Kondo, Kimura and the work that went into wonderful devices like the Feastrex Makoto speaker with its layers of Japanese lacquer and Washi paper cones (go read about it on Dagogo).

However it strikes me that it is somewhat ironic that we at the Tune are finding a completely different plane of audio with equipment that is the opposite of artisanal audio -- now Michael's room treatments, racks, platforms and speakers are artisanal audio truly in spirit and in deed but the Magnazox, Sherwood and yes, my Sony DVD player are mass discount store cheapies. Yet when tuned they reproduce music to a level that CD players and amp costing a car cannot. The operative idea is "when tuned".

So it becomes a question of what we want to tell people come to this site with questions. They will have invested in equipment, they may have tried to treat their rooms. I doubt the Tuneland is the sort of place someone will drop in saying "I got no equipment yet, I may have a spare room and a bit of $ to spend on an audio system, can you tell me where to start?"

It will be more likely "Hi, I got a Network Storage System and I got a problem..." "I have this apartment and my Quad dipoles are.....", "Hi, I have this Thorens and Tannoys and they don't seem to be getting on with each other, can you help..."

Is the answer then "hey, you got it all wrong with your Martin Logans, Jadis amps...sell it all and get a Sherwood and Magnazox!" They will just walk away.

Fundamentally we must remember that these are people with real world problems, perhaps with lots of monetary or emotional investment in their systems and they are customers of Mr Green and his highly effective products.

Oops, got carried away Garp...

Sonic