Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

Hi Sonic

"Michael, how do you make a rack disappear -- even one of your own? Please comment."

When I say disappear it mean's remove it, or find a way to incoorperate it into the acoustics, but the truth is getting a rack to disappear better than a platform is not going to happen, at least not from what I have experienced so far.

Hi Michael

I suppose you are right about the only way to neutralize the sound of the rack is to remove it from the room.....although I tried an idea with echotunes that seemed promising.

Anyway I am already halfway there.....look at what Sonic has done.



The benefits are powerful!

Sonic

Now your talking. It look less complicated and more open.

Imagine this in there with some blocks and maybe a little magic wood for flavor.



I like where your heading   Based on your listening this is a good direction.

Hi Zonees

Sonic has neutralized the two-shelf hemlock rack….the Michael Green way….by removing it from my room and replaced it with a lightweight but rigid wood table to support the turntable.  The feet of the table sit on cherry stained MW (1/4 inch thick) squares done by Michael, the phono stage sits for now on the Harmonic Springs on the floor, some cables rest on the floor.

How much the rack held back the images and bass extension (yes, bass extension!) in my system is now evident and it is a lot. Sonic is now listening now to Mozart’s violin concerto Nr 1 (Iona Brown/Academy of St Martin in the Fields) and the sound is huge and the bass the size you expect from such an ensemble. When the orchestra goes loud it is big and authoritative.  

Pix will follow this week as Sonic runs this in and sets things up properly.

Thing is I have reached a state of tune and musick playback where I can stop here or at most one step more with the platforms that Michael is talking to me about, add some wood and that’s it. Sonic is that satisfied.  I been tuning since (I forget)….2006?  possibly earlier in some form. That’s seven years to get here. In a very happy spot indeed.

As the system warms up and the Mozart plays – I cold started it – Sonic can hear the settling and everything getting gear and thinks “yes, the Tune works”  

Sonic

Hi Michael

As Sonic is settling in the “rackless system”, I tried using some of the spare Michael Green finished (in gunmetal gray) Cable Ground end pieces as support-pieces to rest the feet of my turntable or the Harmonic Feet of my CD assembly.



The sound went resonant and echoey.  Volume came down a bit and although the soundstage sounded really big and wide the sound was echoey and defocussed like I was listening to the rear channels of a surround ambience recovery multi-channel audio set up kit.

What do you make of this?  Should I persevere or are the end pieces in the gray finish not suitable to this application?

Sonic

Really  

So the back stage opened up but were all over the place?

Can you describe what you did in more detail and what you heard?

Obviously something is transfering out of balance, and you have just changed your resonant character of your whole system.

Now you will need to see what could have gone out of balance.

Go to Drewsters latest post.

But it also sounds like you found some new energy in the system.

Always keep in mind, and be looking for new energy that appears, it will come in handy later when you are looking to open things up to the whole stage. And yes, do keep an eye on that volume control. It will tell you a bunch. If more stage opened up but you loose volume that means that you have blockage keeping you from opening up that bigger stage but that the bigger stage is there waiting to come to life.

Hi Michael and Zonees

Here is what Sonic did with the turntable support.



Using this table instead of the clamprack created a much better middle stage projection and definition.  Like the whole middle soundstage got de-congested and height information becomes more discernible.  The hemlock racks closed down the sound a bit and Sonic wonders if it was the material, weight or height or a combination of these that caused the limitations.  This lightweight table is an improvement but it has a slight “dulling colouration” from the Asian oily wood type but the width and projection is good enough that I can live with this nicely.

The two gray wood pieces (finished by Michael) in the pix – one next to the turntable and the other next to the CD player shelf -- are indicative where four pieces would go to support the TT and three to support the CD player shelf under the Harmonic Feet.

Sonic has decided not to pursue using the gray finished MW pieces under the CD player “platform” or the turntable like you see in this pix. They create initially a more echoey and resonant sound and while this may signal more energy that could be tuned beneficially but I am enjoying the musick so much there is no incentive for me to venture to chase the energy that comes from the treated wood along with the settling to make to get the sound to be better.  Sonic is playing them LPs, SPs and CDs and soak in the musick.

The system can be improved of course.  If I compared this to the sound Bill333 and Drewster, not to mention Michael, are getting from their systems my set up will likely be a disappointment.  But I don’t know the top of the Tune mountain so it doesn’t bother me being at this level. When I get ready to scale the mountain further, it will involve the platforms Michael is making.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

You know this is very interesting cause Tuesday I was looking at wood and was thinking about this as a TT Top design

Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic has been going thru the discount bins of the record shops. There is of course some trash there but there are gems.

I found some Carter Family LPs….few know about Wildwood Flower and Diamond in the Rough….Michael you’ll probably know the Carters personally. Been a weekend of playing LPs by the Carters, Oboe concertos by Haydn, Crumb’s Macrokosmos and LPs from the Musical heritage Society.

Also been hearing a system with a Digital Room Acoustic Correcting System. It does solve some of the worst room problems but it causes physical tension. The whole time Sonic and the owner of the system were listening, we did not feel at ease even though the problems of the uncorrected listening room were addressed. Sort of the head said the problems were dealt with (kind of) but the heart said “something is wrong”.

The Tune even in its limited application in Sonic’s system does not present that odd stress that this system produces (worse because the head and heart are signaling different experiences).

Michael – the wood piece to act as a turntable “top” is something that can give great harmonics. Are you using a material that will not warp in this humidity -- music ply?

PM me the cost of such a piece size 29 ¾ inches x 18 inches (what is the thickness?)
Also the cost of 3 platforms each 24 inch x 16 inch (what is the height that you use?)
Can you also estimate shipping cost and how long you will take to build these and ship them to me?

Sonic

Hi Zonees

The rack-less system is settling in well and recordings that were previously odd -- too much right or left -- are in focus now. The girth and images are filling the front of my room nicely.

Sonic has been playing LPs since my last post interspersed with CD. Apart from moving the equipment a bit to allow cleaning of the floor, I haven't done any Tunes or tweaks.

This is quite a departure for Sonic. Till now, for years I was always moving from one Tune to settling then moving to the next Tune.

Now Sonic is just listening and listening. Was playing CDs tonight -- Bill Evans' Alone and some J S Bach. Last night I heard George Crumb's Makrokosmos on LP (Nonesuch) and a Tim Hardin LP that Sonic found by chance. So that's what the original "If I were a Carpenter" sounded like!

Sonic

Hi Zonees

No major tunes this week. Been just listening to musick. But Sonic did one adjustment more for utility to allow easier cleaning of the floor under the equipment.

I reduced the number of Cable Grounds under some Picasso interconnects and tensioned them by turning the RCA jacks so they stayed off the ground or any contact with objects -- these were the CD player cables and the preamp to main amp interconnect.

To get the tension, I turned the RCA jacks at either end to lift the cables but this meant I had to push the RCA jacks fully into the plugs so they were tight so the cables could hold position.

Before this Sonic had the RCA jacks barely pushed in (just making contact), which sounded nice. Now with the tensioned cables and three less Cable Grounds, the sound is still nice and girthful in the viola and cello range. So I got back to listening to more musick.

Was listening to Arnold Schoenberg's Wind Quintet Op 26 (Danzi Quintet) LP, Haydn's concertos for Flute, Oboe and Orchestra -- Collegium Musicum of Paris LP, F Couperin I & II Book of Harpsichord Pieces (Kenneth Gilbert) CD.

Very nice.

Sonic

Hi Zonees

An observation Sonic made this evening -- I find Sonic is playing my LPs at noticeably higher levels enjoyably, without distress or feeling "this is getting a bit too loud". In fact the sound is realistic in scale at these levels.

With CDs, the same average SPLs start making me feel that I have turned the volume up a notch or two too much.

Anyway, Sonic is listening to lots of musick and not doing any tweaks or tunes. Quite a difference in state of mind now.

Hey, where's Michael?

Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

Good to hear you back, Michael!

Sonic is going to experiment a bit with turning the RCA jacks of more interconnects to get them off the ground without use of Cable Grounds.

Also found that shifting the weights about on the bases of my FS-PZCs and FS-DRTs make subtle but telling changes to the soundstage. Will try some combinations and tell everyone what that got Sonic's system to.

Sonic thinks I need a better turntable than the Audio Technical AT-LP120 that is in use now for LP playback. With so many LPs collected, Sonic is finding them the source of choice for serious listening.

I got a few options for my next turntable in mind but there is no wobbly three spring suspended turntables that came as part of the tradition of the wonderful for its time AR XA. As I understand the three-spring turntables have rocking mode stability problems if not adjusted just so, and some won't hold their adjustments for long and more problems are on the way with adjustments if you go to heavier arms like the 12 inch SMEs, the Ortofon RMG 309 and the Fidelity Research (if you can find them). For an expert at set up, you can get things going well but Sonic is a novice at turntable set up. I would rather have something that is solid and repeatable day after day rather than delicate things that you are never sure if they are working optimally.

Been listening to Schoenberg's piano works (LP), Mozart and Webern Quartets (LP), Brahms' sonatas for viola and piano (CD) and Haydn's Cello concertos (CD). Great musick all round.

Sonic

Greetings Zonees

Michael is right when he told Hiend1 that there is always another level of the Tune to aspire to.

While Sonic was reasonably satisfied with the musick I am getting, there is  always something new to try. I have two DecoTunes in the closet so I took one of them out and did this:





Big improvement in focus and though the change in the middle of the front wall, the effect stretched to the front corners and beyond.  Wonder what if I doubled up the DTs?

This layout is not something from the mess of Sonic's mind but from Michael.  In the archives he showed a set up of two FS-PZCs flanking a listening chair with a third FS-PZC without its base mounted on the lower two -- all wood surfaces pointing to the listener.

Zonees can try this as Sonic did with any combination of FS-DRTs, DTs or FS-PZCs. It depends on the axis of the pressure zones, like I got a strong up-down axis which this dealt with nicely.

Spinning on the Turntable is Stephen Stills 2, and after that Sonic played J S Bach's Cantatas 23 and 24.  And also played some santoor music (CD). Very good, even better with the DT canopy.  

I am finding some really good stuff in the used record stores.  My tactic: I start looking in the $2 and $5 bins first.  You never know what gems are in there!

Sonic

Thanks Sonic, I hate being away from tuneland when I am  


looking forward to peeking around  

 

Hi Zonees

Over the course of this week Sonic made a couple of changes to my system:



I have managed to get the Picasso cables from Michael that connect the phono stage to the preamp to lift off the floor and not contact with anything else without requiring any cable lifters.  This was done by pushing the RCA jacks at the phono stage and preamp ends fully home and twisting them till the cables' torque got them floated.

I had to replace the metal casing of the phono stage (look under the table).  This casing is a little heavy but was weighty enough so the phono stage sat down instead of twisting off due to the cable torque which happened when it was just the PCB board and no casing.

And this:



This seems to clean up and give definition to the upper rear zones.

Sonic

"I found some Carter Family LPs….few know about Wildwood Flower and Diamond in the Rough….Michael you’ll probably know the Carters personally."

   A little before my time, except for the last generation, but heard and played a lot of their music growing up.

Love old folk and bluegrass, and love to be around the people who play it.

"Michael – the wood piece to act as a turntable “top” is something that can give great harmonics. Are you using a material that will not warp in this humidity -- music ply?

PM me the cost of such a piece size 29 ¾ inches x 18 inches (what is the thickness?)
Also the cost of 3 platforms each 24 inch x 16 inch (what is the height that you use?)
Can you also estimate shipping cost and how long you will take to build these and ship them to me?"

Hi Sonic

I wish I had the answers for high humidity but I don't. Not saying the Brazilian pine would split but of course the smaller the piece the more stable. Music Ply is built to be tougher, but I really think that if a wood product is treated as gentle as an instrument it should be fine. However wood has it's own mind.

Hi Zonees

Sonic been having discussions with Michael this last week over practical issues of having my equipment so close to the floor ie: on platforms.

Sadly in this case practicality needs to take priority. So the hemlock Clampracks are back. two 24 inch units supporting the TT and the CD player.

I'll post pictures in the next day or two as Sonic is still gauging the changes and positioning.

Sonic needs to emphasize that the platform based system has more musical merit. If you system is just a CD player and an integrated amp (like Michael with his Magnazox and Pioneer/Sherwood) the low positioning of the equipment will give you no grief.

If you have multiple sources like Sonic does that requires constant crouching to clean, adjust and read things, you may have to come to terms with the inconvenience that the low placement causes or go back to racks.

More shortly...

Sonic

Hey, Sonic,

Six of one, half a dozen of another...

Hi Robert

So here we are:



and



The amp is sitting on a Clamprack shelf supported by three large Harmonic Feet.

I'll like to replace this with a platform from Michael in Brazilian Pine.

For sure attempting to adjust a Turntable a few inches of the ground is not a good idea.

Sonic

Sonic asks the question of cables   

My simple system has really gotten use to Type 1. My speaker runs are very short and not touching much along their path. My one interconnect is also very short and only touches the RCA's on the components. The power wire goes straight from the back of the components to the wall outlet.

As I said this setup is all Type 1 even the power wire.

But, what if my system were more complicated?   

I was wondering if there were any ill effects caused by torqueing the cables more than they already are. I would think that would negate the whole idea of vibration, or at least make the cables vibrate in a different way, as would loosening the twists and turns. As for type 1 speaker cable, I seem to be doing alright, but my system is simple, also, except maybe when I bring the laptop into the room.

I personally like the cable extremely loose for my taste.

Everyone has their own flavor though and I wouldn't want to be the one to give a "fixed" answer.

When talking about cable (and parts) we should also be talking about electromagnatism. One might think that thinner cable means thinner sound, not so. In fact if you take a system down to an equal and balanced low mass cable (all the way back to the fuse box) the smaller single cable will give you a bass increase.

However when not a simple setup, the signal is forced to jump through more complicated electrical fields the Type 2 and Type 3 can be used as field shaping tools.

Michael can't you answer this stuff in black and white?

The answers for me always end up in some kind of a variable and even system dependant. This may sound odd, but sometimes in the different types I have found that I turn left when I should have turned right. For example, how can a single strand have more bass in a system than 2 or 3 twist? The answers are understanding the signal being passed in that particular setup, and this is not covered in the audiophile handbook.

Here's an easier way to look at it. Get out an old FM tuner and plug wires into the back of it to get reception. See how the signal fades in and out? The same thing happens with your audio signal through your entire signal pathway. Very rarely is electromagnatism a fixed science and shielding is not the remedy. Shielding used even in the slightest over due causes loss (big loss) to the music. The flip side is how much do you dare to open up things?

TURNABOUT



Michael gave Sonic a considered opinion this morning by PM that a loose T3 loudspeaker cable was what my system needed.

Sonic then did a test. The good thing about having 4 systems in my dwelling approaching audio in different ways (the Tune being the premier version) means I got alternatives!

I removed the T1 cables and hooked up speaker cable from one of the other systems which is made up of 3 x 20AWG equivalent strands per + and – poles. A pro-type cable used OEM to wire many award winning loudspeakers (both studio and domestic versions). Not ideal but an experiment representative of a direction moved from T1.

After setting up and power up….big increase in Mid Bass. Sounds like Sonic had gone to Mullard tubes. The extreme lows were about the same but settling has to take place before knowing for sure with regards to imaging, resolution and such. What I didn’t expect was within a couple of hours, I was hearing the spread of orchestral and jazz ensembles expanding convincingly beyond the wall boundaries.

But the amount mid bass I am getting just an hour or two from set up tells me that I may have made a wrong turn years ago when Sonic rather smugly thinking I got the Tune in hand moved from T3 to T1.

More on this over the next few weeks, everything needs to pause now till Sonic’s head gets in order. Certainly I don’t want to make the mistake of a hasty decision again. If there was an error it put me in a rut that goes back 4 years or so. This is not comforting and a lot now has to be reexamined or unraveled.

Moreover I think the December flu bug has caught up with Sonic.

Sonic