Building a Room Full of Balanced Harmonics

Sounds like you might have when moving to the Type 1 got the system out of balance by having too much variance between the different cables in the system.

This can happen pretty easy if you have a thicker cable in one part and a thinner cable in another.

Lots of times we listen for and to certain improvements and don't pay atention to what might be lost. Easy to do really cause we might hear something clean up or do something that may be different or attractive at the time. We take our mind off the big picture. This is why I spend so much time going after the space and size first and the lower notes (even if their sloppy), then go after some of the other things.

If you get the size and range down, it's a lot easier to go after the other details I have found, but many times we go after the detail of a particular recording first and loose our focus of the over all presentation. And for me the over all presentation must involve space.

If your whole system was simplified and the gauges were smaller and the electromagnetics were stable I have no doubt it would out do the more strands, but the thinness you describe is exactly what you will hear if your balance is off and you have thicker and strands in one place and a single strand in another.

I want to repeat, always try to make size of stage a starting point. Yes you may have flobby bass and a sense of exaggeration but it's in my book the right place to start.

When you look through your notes, look at where you saw the bass and stage get TOO BIG, even out of control sounding. These were the places I thought don't give up, cause they were the places you were the closest at finding it. Then I saw you go after thinning things up and I wondered to myself "is he giving up size".

hope you feel better soon and looking forward to this chapter cause I think you found something about your stage that you didn't have concrete in your thinking before

this is good stuff and I hope you stay on this path for a while

Nothing wrong with the detail path, but sometimes we go there too enthusiastically and end up with something a little less than "full".

   good for you   

Greetings Michael

Here's how things progressed with the system +24 hrs. But first some elaboration:

"What I didn’t expect was within a couple of hours, I was hearing the spread of orchestral and jazz ensembles expanding convincingly beyond the wall boundaries."

This does not happen on all the CDs being played, if it did, the system is adding something not in the recording. What we should hear is variation between recordings -- some will send guitars into the neighbours' yards, some will image tightly between the speakers.

In my case, "convincingly" meant I could hear when a recording imaged outside. I used to be less clear 'is it at the wall, thru the wall, how far into the next area?'

It is clear now when the expansion occurs, though not to the point where Sonic like Michael can use a measuring tape and say 19 feet off to the Left. The L- R expanded boundaries sounded real with the large scale orchestral recording I tried. On the jazz ensemble, the effect was noticeable but struck me as studio trickery with reverb plates and phase. So the lesson I learnt is - wall to wall soundstage is a holy grail of audiophiles but while your system should be able to reproduce it, what you may hear may sound be processed.

I have snugged the cables into the amp's 5 way binding post (bare wire through the drilled hole in the threaded portion and the lock nut just pressing down the cable). At the speaker end, it is bare wire held with the Magneplanar's lock nuts. There is a bit more pressure than I use with solid core because multi-strand has more "spring", but the idea is the same -- a bit of bite to hold and no more.

Bass extension is good, more weight and mid bass is building. How far will this go as the system adjusts itself in settling I would like to see.

The cable because of its elastomer insulation may do some things right but get imaging, treble and tone all wrong. We won't know for sure till after Christmas.

Sonic is hearing less brightness, which could be the cold I am having, but the treble balance is extended.

Imaging appears to have instruments moving to different spots in the soundstage. This could be the changed tonal balance. Some on-panel image trapping is audible, a little bit of banana soundstage.....but after three hours more repeat play, the curvature was gone. So no conclusions yet.

Michael has pointed out how I gave up several times too soon.

Funny thing is what he said "Sounds like you might have when moving to the Type 1 got the system out of balance by having too much variance between the different cables in the system. This can happen pretty easy if you have a thicker cable in one part and a thinner cable in another."

Up till now, my system including the mains was wired up by either Picasso, T1 or stripped down mains cable (outer insulation removed), even the earth drain wire is T1. And the sound was thin and there is a blockage or blockages somewhere. The racks were not the problem because the thinness was there even when there weren't racks. There are no heavy furnishings....now with this new test cable the weight is showing signs of coming back.

Michael, where do you think the blockages are hiding? The Magneplanars themselves?

Sonic wants to get this right step by step. I wonder when we are through how big a detour did Sonic make on that day when I used T1 before the time.

Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

A few days after Turnabout:

The added bass showed up a problem of a loose upper bass note. Sonic has remarked on this from time to time but this time I measured it as a musical note and it is 160Hz.

Wondering how to tame it, I used a resonance checker and found this frequency corresponds to an exact fraction of the room length. My speakers are very close to the halfway mark down the length and this can activate modes like this. Helping me is another audiophile who likes the results of the Tune but prefers digital EQ to solve problems. He suggested the Golden Ratio which worked well for him. So Sonic took the length of the room multiplied it by 1.618 and used that to set the distance from the front wall. Worked out to 8 ft.

So speakers go there while maintaining the 18” from the side walls and about the same toe in.

Pretty good. No more banana stage but the deep “visible stage” has reduced, things are clear but flatter [was what I was listening to exaggerated? Again care is needed – just like if I have been conditioned to eating over-spicy food, being served a plate of fine vegetables with a light sauce may at first be completely bland. In my town, diners order great sushi and slather it with sauce and wasabi….Sonic found that the right way to eat great is very restrained, just a spot of sauce and no wasabi added (the chef decides how much). It took me some time to understand the switch and I am glad I did].

Good coherence across the stage – instruments line up right and when a whole drum kit gets recorded round one speaker like in 1960s recordings, there is no muddling when rolls are performed.

The wide images I got are still there, there is ambience, the bass is tighter but I am not sure I like it the whole presentation. But could this be due to long term conditioning?

What Sonic has done is borrowed a pair of Sennheiser 600s. These are monitor/reference headphones (so I am told) and I am going to spend the next few days listening to them. To get the feel of musick without a room and see what I learn and apply. Straight off, Sonic needs to relate the soundstage as presented by the headphones to what imaging is presented in a conventional stereo system and in a system that has been tuned. There are differences with the headphone stereo bunched in the R and L extremities plus a band across the middle stage either through the head.

Sonic

"Michael, where do you think the blockages are hiding? The Magneplanars themselves?"

To answer a question like this I have to go in my room and listen. What is right and what is wrong from the High End Audio view is no longer of merit to me. I've been experiencing a world that is past this for so long that I only know how to speak of things in music tuning terms.

Saying this my answer has got to be what I am doing and how it works for me. To me for example, if the sound is as big as a football field I would like to get the feeling I was in a football field. If the Rolling Stones bring in the London Bach Choir to sing the opening at the Olympic Sound Studio of "you can't always get what you want", I want to be able to read the recording notes on the production and feel like I'm there.



Being an engineer I look at the mics and room and who is at the controls and try to duplicate where they were going.

When I hear that you are going from banana shape to flat stage and not having a really deep stage (recording dependant of course) it does spell blockage to me. I would have stuck with the deeper stage and figured out the raised frequency response. I liked where you were going when you were talking about the differences in the sizes of the recording stages a couple of post ago and for me I would have stayed on that path.

Also if you can. Pay attention to the space in the headphone presentation and listen for what is missing from the room vs headphone sound. I'm not saying the headphones are right, I'm just saying they should present something the typical room system doesn't in regards to fullness and spacial perspective.

My setup sounds half way between the headphone effect and the room.

Greetings Michael and Zonees

After more settling and listening the flattened stage is step back definitely. Michael is right.

So as Michael observed, I backtracked to having the loudspeakers back where they were (about 1/2 the length of the room, actually about 9+ft from the front wall with a moderate toe in). Certainly the speakers at the 8 ft point closed down the depth of the sound. The width was compromised too. I don't know if less than optimum placement is a form of blockage (Michael?) but my earlier placement sounds more open, free and wider in soundstage width.

Good sound again and I will let the system with the light multistrand cable settle in as Sonic recovers from the flu and hears properly again.

l am still looking for the Big Event of Blockage. It is in here somewhere. If I cannot stand in front of a loudspeaker and hear no sound from it but a wide soundstage spreading across the room, there is a blockage of some sort around.

Where?

Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

Sonic is troubled   I am back to where I started as you suggested – speakers in the best (till now) spot and multistrand connecting them to the amp. It is working OK but I know things are not right.

If the issues are all about blockage, where are they? I can divide my system into these sections for purpose of elimination. Michael, please give guidance:

The Mains Feed
The fuse box outside my dwelling has unnecessary cable ties cut.

Anything in the fuse box that can be safely loosened has been.

Wires running to the room are not accessible.

Wall sockets loosened and hanging free.

T1 wires to feed power strips.

Thin solid core for earth drain.

Power strips of light plastic on MW and Harmonic Feet/Springs.

The Equipment
Equipment on Michael Green ClampRacks. I have heard the system with and without the racks. No difference. So they are not the problem.

All equipment have casings, removed, cable ties cut, rubber removed, T1 power lines, transformers placed on separate platforms.

If T1 power line is not possible as in the Turntable, the rubber covering of the mains feed has been cut off to reduce damping.

Canopy over CD player, MG AAB1x1 cones or Harmonic Springs used throughout under equipment.

The preamp is placed on MG resitone spikes.

Picasso cables connecting everything.

Multistrand speaker cables.

Jumpers for tweeter ribbons are T1.

Speakers mounted on Myestands, sand filled (blockage?)

All cables lifted with MG Cable Grounds.

The Physical Room
MG pillow products, floorstanders and PZCs used throughout. No other room treatment used.

Is sound leaking out my doors?

No acoustic burn used anywhere in the room.

Builders’ Paper on windows.

Bookcase lightly filled with CDs and books. (Blockage?)

Ikea shelves filling up with LPs and SPs.

Room is otherwise empty.

The Vexing Problem
By what I have seen in the Tuning pages, Sonic should be doinga lot better from this room/system given that I have followed a lot of Michael’s approaches and techniques.

Yet, it is just pretty good. That’s all.

Yes, friends compliment the system, say nice things, marvel that the PZCs are not the speakers and that’s about it. No seeing ghosts, tears and mutterings of “I never knew…”.

Michael please review this list and comment. Something is wrong and the multistrand is showing some of it up. What can I do to get back on the path?

At this stage, without a compass reset, adding a new turntable, platforms, PZCs, a T3 re-wire etc is just throwing more effort and money randomly hoping for an accidental discovery of a solution to an existing but unidentified problem.

I would like to learn what the problem is first – and then work to surmount it in a planned way or if insoluble for various reasons then Sonic should know what I need to live with and after that point not complain. Right now, Sonic all at sea.....and tired.

Sonic

Hi Sonic, MG, and all music lovers. Reading Sonic's latest posts has me thinking. Wouldn't there be some type of blockage from using small gauge power cords into an AC outlet that is wired with large gauge house wire? Wouldn't it make more sense to use the same house wire as a power cord? Also, Sonic, did you try the simple things like less toe-in on the Maggies, and/or moving them a little closer together? Happy Holidays to everyone.

Hi Sonic & gang

One of the things that I have always enjoyed about this hobby and business is the fact that on one side there is a sense of complication and at the same time this simplicity.

Why hasn't every designer given you a complete system that goes from start to finish like the "Tune" has? The answer is...they don't know. They don't know how to give you the perfect picture and give it to you with every recording you play. Sound is like no other hobby. No other hobby goes through so many hands and taste before it gets to you, and has such a variance of performance along the way.

When I started to design for me instead of designing for High End Audio components I found a truth that changed my listening forever. I started to get my mind around what was really going on and it wasn't too far into this that I realized that the world of the audiophile could go much further if they freed their mind from the stock and taught answers that folks made up to sound nice to the buyers ears but didn't lead them closer to the music. This hobby can reach a particular level of performance and then stops cold in it's tracks. We as listeners have magic moments and for a brief time think we are there. This last about as long as our mood or until we put on a different recording that has a different set of recording signatures and all is lost again. We start to question our system and maybe even our ears. We take our eyes off of physics and science and hunt for the answers within our audiophile comfort zones. The same comfort zones of those before us that at their very best were only taking guesses and trying to make the story believable and sellable to the male ego. It doesn't take much investigation to see that these people themselves are hitting the same walls as everyone else. Their claims may be bold but we sit there saying "that's not really that great sounding" or "it sounds good on this recording why not my favorite stuff".

Another problem we do is get ourselves so far off track in our own listening and system that we find ourselves back to the starting point with all these toys and not knowing where to begin or what they are doing for or against us. "how could this sound so bad when moments ago it was so good" or at least closer to what we see (hear) as the truth.

Preserving the signal has been my life long persuit and my biggest teacher. I have swung the audio pendulum perhaps further than any other designer (at least that I know of). The first thing that I realized is too much results in too little and that when we shut down, over dampen, tightly smash, bend, twist, bulk the music information disappears in front of us and becomes tiny and far from believable.

The other side to this is waves that seem to never stick together and form musical stages that have body or the right balancing of harmonics. For this reason many have decided to live with the tiny or go with systems that are more like PA systems pushing air and creating waves by force.

For me to find the answers for myself I needed to throw out the rule books and de-bunk the myths and only give myself over to the truths I find by learning. Learning that comes from experience that becomes a pratical set of basic guidelines. The more I explore the more the music itself becomes my teacher along with the materials used to make this hobby happen. My respect for vibration, waves and electronic energies is enormous and as I learn how they are one and work together I find a new very important truth in this hobby that the industry itself has the hardest time dealing with. This hobby and the people who follow it want so bad for it to be a fixed event and the truth of it is, this hobby doesn't stop moving for even one second. The sound is in constant change mode all the time and is imposible to repeat exactly the same like a polaroid snapshot. What's more, not one recording on the planet has the same recorded signature and yet we sit there praying this miracle will take place of good sound as if one recording can sound like the next. That's like saying the sun is going to stay in one spot in the sky and the clouds above us are going to be the same tomorrow as they were today. For myself I have found and dealt with the fact that this is not going to happen. No matter how much I buy into any hobby or professional part of this music chain I need to be real with myself. And being so I have made this hobby into a ton of fun. I can put on any piece of music and with patience and disipline go places the average listener will never go and experience part of recordings they will never hear in playback on a stagnant setup. To me this is the hobby I want. I don't want the Ferrari in the garage, I want to feel it on the track and learn how to drive it. To me this is the meaning of High End Audio and it's the meaning of being an audiophile. It's not just throwing on a piece of music and letting a system determine what it will sound like, it's making a system that can unlock it's secrets and musical treasures.

When people ask me what to do, my first thought is perhaps a crazy (to the trained and conditioned audiophile) one but it's the truth as I see it. Get rid of your audiophile components and stop trying to make them sound like they don't. I apperiate that these guys have created this cool exotic showing of parts and pieces but if we are sitting there listening to this and it doesn't sound right why have it? Why do we insist on building a system around a part that is not delivering? We keep trying to force our systems into being something they are not and we instead of making our rooms and things in the rooms into a music creators we have this thing built in us that won't let go of the hope that we can convert something into a music machine that will work at a higher level than what it is capable. It's like fighting with ourselves and not being willing to look at the obvious.

what is the obvious   

What is the obvious   

Simplicity, full range and patterns   

number one

If a person can not understand that their musical system is based on the basis of vibration they will never get to the next level.

We must let our systems vibrate as open as possible to allow the fullest range of harmonics (what holds structure together) develope.

On a recent visit to Chicago, Bill and I were looking at the handy work of Sweetpea the audio cat. She managed to move two wires that were suspended by a cloth device we made for hanging the wires from the fuse box to the components. When I say moved I mean barely moved. The wires instead of hanging freely were slightly turned in their hangers at about 33 degrees instead of straight on. No big deal right? I mean it is two pieces of solid core sitting in a treated jute cloth hanger and the one hanger was slightly angled. For the grins of it I wanted to hear a change if there was any so I sat in the room while Bill straighten the wire. The system went from sounding almost mono to wide open by comparison. This was not a small change and I was not ebellishing in the slightest.

When I experience these types of things it reminds me of how delicate the signal really is and how this signal is many times being tortured on the audio pathway. I watch people making changes and think to myself "do they realize what they have just done". Do we not understand that the signal is not some magical thing that goes from here to there without altering the physilectro (new word) structure. This is a signal path that is extremely sensitive. As sensitive as turning the key on any instruments string or to be more graphic undoing all the strings on a grand piano. We sit back down and play our grand piano and expect that it is going to pick up where it was left off. We have just change the electronic flow carrying the signal or the acoustical patterns in the room and we think it will snap to attention. Were talking about music and all the waves that have to be in balance to deliver. Sure if we are talking about a boombox or a system that is limited that's one thing, but we aren't. We're talking about stripped down race cars that can go way past the average. The more we strip down the bigger the changes are when moving things and if not careful the easier to go from great to madness. We can go back to high end but do it and see how much is missing. It's like once you get close going back is not going to cut it.

Face it we get spoiled    We have a magic music listening session and want it all the time. Go back through your own posts and see when you have moments where you thought you were right there. We're there, then we make a change and we're lost again. What does this tell us? It tells me that every recording is different and that the signal is highly tunable all the way through the audio pathway. It also tells me that the more simple I make my system the more chance I have to get where I want to go easier.

People can say what ever they want but I'm thrilled that I have gone ultra simple. The best part is "I know where my system is". Going from racks to platforms is like, well it's huge. It's huge for both the speakers and the equipment. Could I make a rack that sounded like a platform? If there's a will there's a way but for me 2 components and BP/Low Tone platforms is heaven.

sonnylistner wrote:

Hi Sonic, MG, and all music lovers. Reading Sonic's latest posts has me thinking. Wouldn't there be some type of blockage from using small gauge power cords into an AC outlet that is wired with large gauge house wire?  Wouldn't it make more sense to use the same house wire as a power cord? Also, Sonic, did you try the simple things like less toe-in on the Maggies, and/or moving them a little closer together? Happy Holidays to everyone.

Hi sonnylistener

This is actually something we did years ago and the result was a shrinking of the stage. We also made a system out of 12 gauge all the way through the system. From there we started backing down the system to 14, 16, 18...etc till we settled on 22 being the most balanced. Something to keep in mind is that your parts are also made of really small gauge, 32 being common.

Another thing that makes a big difference is the wires jacket.

"I would like to learn what the problem is first – and then work to surmount it in a planned way or if insoluble for various reasons then Sonic should know what I need to live with and after that point not complain. Right now, Sonic all at sea.....and tired."

I may not have the answers you want, but I can tell you what would be my approach if this was my system.

First and formost I would walk up to my wall and hit it. If I do this to my wall in Vegas built the way it is the whole room vibrates. There's this obvious boom that is inside the walls and you can feel that the walls are connected to each other by 2 x 4 structures covered in drywall. I can jump in my room here and feel the floor give and again a loud boom and feel how the construction here is not overly solid but has a lot of flex to it.

If I did this same test in your room I would feel and hear right away that your room is built like a brick compared to the one in vegas. Your walls sound closer to the tile floors I have downstairs here than they do my walls.

When I take my portable system and I set it in the downstairs room on the floor and play it I can hear how the hardness of this material gets into my system. Keep in mind this is just the floor that is hard. When testing wood for some of the guys I laid down the 2 X 4's on the floor and put the music ply on top, then I set the portable system back on and played it. The difference is more than shocking. The same thing has happened when I compare hard to flex walls in my factories and other homes.

If your room was my room, I would have me a tunable wall behind my head and body. I would also tune my room with wood till the wood replaced the sound of the hard walls. You have seen me do this in my rooms before with the use of my SAM walls and other toys. I am absolutely sure that the bookcases you have help but compared to a light weight wall without anything in them they are not giving enough tone.

Next thing I would do is put my trusted system in your room to hear what it is doing and play my trusted reference recordings. In seconds I would hear where the system is and what it can do cold but over the next little while I would let it settle and do some of the tunes that I'm use to using and see where my starting point is.

I can tell you this. Your room would sound wet to me, and not have the impact of percussion that I am use to. Having a dry room around me with walls ceiling and floor that flex is a totally different world from the one you have. After listening in the big room for a while I would try the system in every direction and with the SAM would have divided my room in different sizes to see what happened. Big rooms are not bad. Some of them have this natural flow and you can listen to a soundstage forever, Bill333's upstairs room is this way. However a big room with walls that are not cooperating can be a major pain. Drewster has one of these rooms and your room by the way you talk is in this camp I would guess. I have had homes that fell right in to place and others that were listening battle grounds till I figured them out. Is your room one of these? I would have to be there, but I can tell you this also, by everything you have told me over the years I would probably not be using the maggies in there. I would also not be using the CD player you have.

Watching the Tunees over time I see some guys find their niche easier than others when it comes to components. I can tell when they are fighting and when they are circling perfection for them. In your case I wonder if the maggies are serving you well. Maggies get to a certain level really nicely but when we push them to do more than they are built to do they become extremely fussy. They and most panel speakers have so much area as a transducer that it takes very little to throw them into a weird place. Again let me say that reaching the level of very good is not so hard but reaching the level of extreme can be pretty touchy unless the speakers are sitting in a room that responds perfectly to them. This is the feeling I get when I see you getting close and then losing it.

got to go listen

Ok I'm back

I needed to go into my listening room and take it in. Hall & Oats is playing which isn't an easy recording but when I stepped in between the speakers I could see the musicians as if they were in the room with me. I sat down and the music was around me. I have a confession. I haven't tweaked in days and yet almost everything I have put on sounds pretty dare good after the first pass.

I sit there and say why? The answer that pops into my brain is "ease". My system is so relaxed that the music flows and doesn't have that uptight sense. The sound is both immeadiate and not strained in any way. I have heard this CD sound very stressed and most of the time I have to put it on somewhere and enjoy the music for the music itself and not the recording (until I take the time to tune it) but right now the warmth is nothing shy of seductive.

I do have to say that anyone that is not listening to the Magnavox CD player is missing out on digital. Why? I don't care why, it just sounds better than any digital source I have ever heard. It does not sound (tuned) like dots and dashes but instead liquid.

Would I like tubes? Hmm...I have to ask myself if I'm willing to give up this extremely simple listening life that I have gotten use to. I guess a touch of tubes would be nice but if I can't do it with an integrated and my CD, keeping it a two piece system, I'll pass. The more I think about it and listen to the sound flowing into my room maybe not. There's a weird attack that the Sherwood has that when you get it right it sounds in perfect pace and perfect pace is not something I would consider losing.

The blend of wood sound though is what really grabs me and every time I find a wood combo that brings me closer to this dynamic richness I become like a kid finding the next level all over again. I'm now actually grading the Redwood blocks by sound and tonality. These blocks have become a whole new world for me and I'm finding that by knowing them I can voice a recording or overall flavor easily. Having only two components also makes it super easy to make cone, spring and wood combos.

So if your world was mine I would probably have it at least at first a simplier setup. My system as a whole would weigh a fraction of yours and be using a tunable dynamic speaker setup or something that was super easy (not neccessarily high efficiency) to drive. It would most defininately be about platforms and wood acoustical products and a SAM.

The cable is a personal choice but because I know the secret to the sound I can voice my cables to match the flow of the system. This is something that would be wise for a listener to learn. Sometimes I want to share this secret and other times I'm afraid people will screw things up so bad that they will make the cable worthless and have to start over. Lets start with this, cable is not just cable, it can be voiced.

When you make a system super simple you can spend your time making extremely important changes that can be more predictable and far more wide range. Think about it. Why would I be using a receiver of all things? When you look at my system you can see that I have cut down my cable to very little. Take a look at the Sherwood. One curcuit board to tune. With the system being only two things that need power I have made my electrical path as easy as it can get. No power strip. My Sherwood is burning in and as it does I can hear it relaxing. I can't wait till it is a couple of years old along with my player. The Sherwood after about 6 months of constant play starts to relax and the highs become less mechanical sounding which is so far my one questionable sonic potentual downside. I have this question with all solid state components and in time usually figure out the flavor of transfer that deals with this.

more to come

Sonic did as Michael suggested -- I slapped the side walls and the front wall.

Side walls go "Plat!" accompanied with a "Thump" of lower than equal level but loud and deep. The front wall however goes "Plat!" with the accompanying "Thump" lower in level compared to the side walls and less deep in frequency distribution.

When Michael says I should not be using the Sony Blu-ray, what can I use if the Magnavox is not available in this country or in an option that accepts 230V and 50Hz? Samsung?

I wonder if the heavy MyeStand supporting the Magneplanars are a source of blockage since with sand filling they double the weight of the speaker assembly.

more to come, continuing from my answer to what I would do if your place was mine

"plat" vs "drum"

The first thing I think of when slapping or just barely tapping the walls here is a drum sound. A low resonant tone that is more like an explosion of mid to low bottom. It's a boom, but not an echo type of boom that is unruly, a solid big round boom. Importantly it is easy to tell the room is connected with itself and speaks as if one voice. I hardly had to tap the wall, any wall, and the whole room made the tone not just that spot then the room joining, but more like the entire room just made a movement.

Keep in mind that your notes should be reacting to the room in perspective and relationship to the size of the wave. High notes should sound small and bass notes should sound big. This is natural and correct. Hard rooms have a very tough time with this when tapping on the wall as compared to a room with more flex. Audiophiles are brainwashed into thinking the wall should not sound, big mistake. The wall is what you are hearing. Some, a very few some, may get a hard room to produce a full range out in the room but this is hardly ever the case. Waves being produced by a system need support to reproduce.

The "Tunable Room" is all about creating the exact same sounds as musical instruments. If you were in one when only the frames were up you would be shocked at how the tone when just barely tapping it moved through the whole space, and how you can hear the entire range low to high with tons of harmonics. The opposite of this is the sound of a concrete wall. It's more of a dead slap with the room ringing and pinging instead of the whole room creating body.

When a room is too hard the patterns that come off of the wall are one of two things. Either the room maintains elongated repeating echos or distortion because the waves coming off the wall are not in balance with the waves coming toward the wall. I've given lots of tours walking through areas that produce these different responses and once it is heard the sounds stick in the mind.

Taming a hard room can be a bear and can fool a person into thinking they've got it until they put on the next piece of music and it almost feels like half of the music is missing. The truth is, half of the music is missing, probably much more. The problem is sometimes the music can sound so clean as if it was just windexed, but this is an illusion that happens as we remove most of the supporting harmonic structures and tonal body. Music depends on body and if taken away the in between comes up missing. This is why many audiophiles play extremely simple music without too many complicated passages. They stay away from movement and engineering effects or they will lock into a few recordings that sound really really good and the rest is like a nightmare.

You have taken your system to a level, by reading your posts, that is very controlled for the materials you have to work with, and I can almost feel when you are close and when you feel like you have fallen away. Telling a hard room not to sound like a hard room is tough cause it only takes one little change and the whole sound can go in the dumpster. Placement of things in a hard room can be so picky because they are not very forgiving like a room with flex. Fractions of an inch can make or break and each recording seems to make it almost necessary for a little tweaking and when that tweaking is done it feels like you have to start all over again.

If this were my room. I would be looking at the things that bring more of a full range into the room and system and get rid of anything that complicates the signal.

When you and I have talked in the last few emails you were thinking of BP/Low tone Platforms and Blocks. This is absolutely the direction I would go and I would also be thinking either converting the wall behind you into even more of a resonator or make a SAM. If it were my room I would introduce everything I could that would bring more tone to the signal and remove the sound of the hard walls. Read what has happened when GARP, myself, Andy and Bill added the Low Tone Platforms and Blocks. Also look at what happened when I was in my tile room and added wood.

next, the equipment and speakers

Michael says "The problem is sometimes the music can sound so clean as if it was just windexed" Now it sounds like he has listened long-distance to my system.

Very excited to get these replies from Michael – now we are jammin’ I think.

Sonic did an unblock – took the sand filled MyeStands out and replaced the standard Magneplanar feet, this time sitting on MW squares at the ends and in the centre under where the panels bolt on.

A few minutes of musick play and I could feel that sound that Michael and I described before – of the room and system relaxing and sighing in relief.

Will this settle of course. But if this was one of the sources of blockage, it will have been a 8 month detour for Sonic and the system and I will have to relook at all the things were done during that time because I must have been responding to the blockage caused by the damped stands.

Also to complete the tests I slapped the back wall – absolutely “Plat!” no thump at all. Yet ¾ back the wall makes a nice deep “Thump!”. Floor slap went “Plat!” no “thump”.

Now with Michael's specific guidance of my tuning efforts, if the blocks and platform are still right, Sonic will buy them with then certainty we are now on the road to a solution.

Anyway Sonic pausing now for a moment.

Christmas is almost here. Time to ponder things more important.

Wishing Michael and Tunees a Blessed Christmas!

Sonic

Merry Christmas   

Blocks and Platforms are the right move.

Hi Michael and Zonees

What a difference that guidance from Mr Green makes   

For sure the relaxation and reduction of blockage that came from removing the MyeStands helped a lot but with fresh thinking from Michael I can see where my tuning has gone wrong that resulted in the frustration you all read about earlier this week.  It was the “sound of all tunes of months past” catching up.  Just like Michael said his Sherwood amp is settling in after two years, Sonic tunes started to catch up and the effect was midrangy and blocked.

Sonic is again feeling optimistic about my system after the Christmas break.  

After Michael described how his room walls and floor sounded when tapped, Sonic could see how far different my room is from Bill333, Garp and Michael’s.  The methodology I been adopting from the Tune site was appropriate for drywall and suspended wood floors – given the vastly different signature of the room (the deep controlled resonant boom from Michael’s walls compared to “Plat!” with a “Thump”) the steps I was taking was in effect the wrong ones for my room.

So it wasn’t the T1 cables’ fault at all, neither was it Michael’s.  If the “slap-your-walls-and-floor” test was done earlier, it would have zeroed things in and identified the “enemy” from the start. Anyway, we learn. So after removal of the MyeStands, Sonic is back with the T1s and they sound OK.

Here is where I am going:





Sonic is bringing applying MW as interface pieces here.   If every material the vibrations of our musick go through affect the sound, wood is the material that I use for the transfer.

So a few things which you’ll see in the path Sonic will be taking in the next few posts:

First, thank you Sonny Listner! Your insight about metal, pointy things is spot on right.  In this room they contribute to hardness, Windex-focus and soundstage oddities.  In a drywall/wood room, they provide the needed balance.  Till the wood blocks and platform I am buying from Michael gets done and installed, I will start removing sharp, pointy metal things and replacing them with wood. Thank you too for the PM, I'll reply shortly.

Next, having the racks so far forward was a mistake. The room is possibly devoid of pressure and what exists in terms of flows in Sonic’s room is probably very close to the walls and surfaces.  This means I’ll be moving my racks back to the front zone and the FS-PZCs and FS-DRTs will probably get rearranged in the coming days.

Sonic

electronics and speakers (my continuation)

I would think that the thing that keeps me in a good place most of the time is the fact that I think of the system in terms of vibrations. I try not to get too side tracked from a clear vision of what is going on and getting sound out of the components I have helps me do this cause there's no ego involved. Who has an ego over a Magnavox and a Sherwood   

Learning about how sensitive the signal is, is the secret to shaping the sound. It helps me to visualize that everything that touches everything else is part of the character of the sound. I could never think of a system the same way I use to before finding the affects so many things have on the sound. Learning to except the "whole sound" as part of my thinking allows me to focus in on what is happening when playing a recording. You guys hear me talk about vibration codes all the time but I wonder sometimes if your seeing this as sensitively as it really is or if we know how much we can gain control over our sound?

One of the reasons I don't talk too much about my system is because I don't want to scare people, but I like to take my system places as if it were a staging and tonal and shaping game. To me this is a ton of fun and some of the places I end up with a recording is really special. For myself, I love that the system is variable and the more I get to "simple" the more fun I can have. I have found that so many recordings have a huge dynamic range but many times when we put them on we only hear a fraction of this because we are not listening to it in balance and with the audio gates all the way open.

I have taken systems all the way down to the circuit boards and down to 32 gauge wire, but this is too impractical for even me. A system taken down to this state can drift in and out of tune so fast that it becomes a full time job. Also it puts me at a place where I can't relate any more to the tunee and I look at your systems like my own only from a distance. 22gauge is a place where you can get a good flow plus the benefit of just enough stiffness to hold shape fairly well.

The other day I put my cables so that they touched each other and touched the frame of my receiver. The sound went from open to closed immediately. This was only one place on the interconnect and the power that went from the receiver to the wall. When the cables were touching you could throw away the system and I couldn't have care less. Freeing those cables up again was like someone handed me a front row seat for Elvis (well maybe the beatles than). I sat there and listened and looked at the system and said how do I tell people that they have control of the flavor and dynamic range of their music. I guess the best I can do is try to have you guys picture how the cables and parts in your system need to vibrate at the right amount, not too little and not too much, to give you control and a better expression of dynamics. Plus an understanding that what those components are touching hold the tonal balance within them.

The tonal balance that you get is not so much right at the part or piece but the next step. What I'm saying is that as the vibration is distributing that's where the tuning can take place that shapes the sound. Notice I say distributing and not dissipating. Maybe I've been painting the wrong picture when I talk about dissipation and decay. I make it sound like the vibrating signal is dying off and I shouldn't. How can I put it so it makes sense. Look at the guitar. The string is where the vibration is started and then it travels through the neck and bridge. It's when the vibration hits the body that gives the tone and amplification, then the room takes it from there. Look at the part or cable as the string. Now look at the platform or rack or floor as the body. You have the part, then you have the transfer (bridge or transfer device) then you have the dynamic range maker.

The more I refine the dynamic range maker the more the music "explodes". I knew this before I moved to Vegas but didn't really let it reach a level of body that I now do. I didn't understand that I needed to let things dry and cure even more. Finding Magic wood was big and how to bake it, but when the Brazilian and Argentine Pine came along I was getting somewhere and the Low Tone Redwood made me flip. Over the last few years I have learned so much about tonality, and it has let me take the things I have learned in the past and redo my "vibrations".

Not only do I have a matured veiw of electronic flow but the way I would design speakers now as compared to before is major in my thinking as well. I would go one step further in tone. It's almost funny when I think that folks still talk about how to kill the vibration. A couple of years ago you guys saw me build the 102's and 82's. Ugly creatures for sure at the time but I found something in tone that I had never had before. There was a richness inside of the music structure, like a hidden harmonic, that I don't think was ever made in a loudspeaker before. I can hear that sound in my head now and think about how I matched the sound of the SAM behind me to the sound of the 102's, oh my! If I would have had them on the tuned floor on platforms.

must take a listening break

Hi Zonees

Sonic’s system is getting enjoyable again. Was listening this evening to Telemann’s Cantatas (the great master Sebastian Bach is often at the forefront of compositions of church Cantatas but Telemann wrote many too). Heard the Nonesuch LP of Telemann’s Cantata for the Sunday after Christmas (very appropriate for today), the Cantata for the feast of St John the Baptist, the Cantata for the First Holy Day of Whitsunday (Pentecost) and the Cantata for St Michael’s Day. These cantatas are set for a much smaller ensemble than those of Bach – for one voice (tenor), violin, cembalo and cello. Spare but beautiful.

Also heard a CBS LPs for Respighi’s Pines of Rome (Eugene Ormandy and the Chicago Symphony) – an excellent recording and one in good condition but I am afraid it was not Sonic’s musical preference. Followed this with Haydn’s Symphony 12, 34 and La Reine by the Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment (CD).

Certainly a blockage has been removed from my system and musick is beginning to flow again.

I also heard a binaural recording of a Shostakovich symphony in a live setting. This dummy head recording sounded remarkably real even on inexpensive Sony computer audio headphones…and I was playing something off YouTube. The realism and soundstage spread of the orchestra was no longer in/through my head like the usual headphone playback. The audience noises and applause at the end of the performance was excellent and extended out for miles front, back and to the sides.

Without the drawbacks of headphones and the lack of programme material in binaural, this rare format comes really close to reproducing the realism of the live musical event. Even with all the problems with headphones, Sonic has discovered the realism and possibility of binaural stereo.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

Good to see the direction heading back toward music. Did you ever make the stage comparison between the 600's and the in room system sound?

Hi Michael

Sonic is learning a lot from listening to music with the Sennheiser headphones although on a different system in my dwelling and making comparisons with the tuning (I won’t dare say “Tuned)) system.

First, it ain’t easy to make comparisons. In fact setting comparable levels is subjective and there is not real way I can be sure I am getting similar average or peak levels.

Second, imaging layout is very different. I used a familiar CD – Handel’s Wassermusick (Trevor Pinnock/The English Conert/Archiv). To get an idea of the soundstaging of the headphones imaging this: the top of your head is 12 o’clock, your left temple is 9 o’clock and your right temple is 3 o’clock.
With this CD, the main orchestra was in a crescent from about 10 to 2 o’clock over my head. The counterpoint solo violins were 9.30 and 3.30.

The loudspeakers presented a wider stage that spread laterally out of my room (tail of instrument sections and ambience only) and the counterpoint solo violins were just behind the loudspeakers. The headphones were detailed but the presentation was not convincing. Not much went in front of my head or behind me with the Handel CD. The loudspeakers in my main room with Michael's products is closer to what I hear in the concert hall.

The bass was however much more fulsome with the Headphones (which are known to be warm) and I had to use the amp EQ to cut the bass and boost the treble a little. I can nevertheless see a shortcoming with my Magneplanar system in the bass region I need to look at.

OTOH, when playing a binaural orchestral recording on headphones (this time Sony), the presentation is very similar to the “being tuned” Magneplanar system. The images with the headphones are outside my head, in front of me, and listening to the ‘phones while sitting in my listening chair facing the speakers I can imagine the whole sound and imaging coming from the MG1.5QRs.

After listening to more stuff on the headphones, I need to work on the bass of my main system.

Sonic

Hi Sonic

You brought up something interesting that triggered a thought. The one complaint I have had with some of the higher end headphones is again that closed in sound. Kinda like someone put the stage in your head and not floating out there in space which I got from some of the "lesser" phones. Once again (this has been a while) I chose headphones that were not neccessarily High End Audio ones.

There's something that a lot of folks are going after in that High End sound that is less convincing to me. It's kind of like they are pouring something artifical over the music in order to make a candy type sound. I'm not taking about tubes done right which I love but more of a candy (artifical sweetner) that drives me crazy after a short listen. It makes my skin craw and I can't wait to get back to something with a lot less sugar.

Saying that, I like part of what the phones do and part of what a frontal system does and for my favorite sound, setup things to go a mix of the two. It's being in the music and not watching it at a distance and it's around me and not stuck in front. The front is obviously the main focus but the whole front to back is very alive with some very fun stuff that happens with great surprise off to the distant sides. Because of this I also get, for my taste, much better bass lines and feel. It's a lot different from, the stage starts here and moves back, type of thing. It's more entering the room and your in the music. You see also for me I have only experienced concerts outside that have that frontal thing. Maybe it's my ears but when I do concerts in house the music is all around me and I'm very aware of the space the music is hosted in. It doesn't to me sound like it is all coming from the front unless the hall is poorly done and dampened. Keep in mind though that I'm a guy who did most of his live listening during practice and liked the practice sound far better than the full house event. Peoples bodies take tons away when the house is full in most places unless there is a good balance in the acoustics.

You know I never thought about this, but it might be good to show where I trained my ears to listen to live sound. Even though I toured, a lot of my developement was when I was stationary and studied a particular hall while working there.

In my eariler 20's this is one of the halls I spent a lot of time in.



Also a very interesting room with extremely open acoustics using the great Ruffatti organ.

Here's Bach's "Arioso" - Diane Bish. Think I was 20 the first time I recorded with her.




Both the Fox in Atlanta and Coral Ridge in Ft Lauderdale were big 360 soundstages.

Hi Michael and Garp

Sonic is recovering the sound of the system. It really was sounding horrid just before Christmas and I was as despondent as Sonic sounded.

The racks have gone back to the front and I found (yes, Zonees keep hearing me say this after my excursions) that Michael again is right – my racks and FS-PZC is closer to the front wall than I have put them and it sounds very good. Pix of what I been doing shall follow shortly.

The musick is back, my room is sounding decent again but this time I have a better understanding of what is going on round me.

Now about my recent posts about headphones. I got to say Sonic doesn’t own any ‘phones. Everything you read about me using is borrowed or tried in a store. I did testing with headphones after a hifi buddy handed me his phones and said to use them to exclude the room. That was impossible because the ‘phones sounded so different and placed images in such a way that if I was to want to enjoy both ‘phones and speakers Sonic would have to approach them mentally as different things not one being a version of the other (eg: speakers close up, sans room).

Also I know that headphones are designed to be not flat but have a contour to mimic the diffuse field. And unlike a flat line frequency response, comparing headphones’ frequency response charts are impossible because you cannot tell which is flatter or closer to some ideal target response. With speakers, cartridges, amps, tape recorders, CD players and tuners you can tell and compare flat and deviations from it but not headphones.

The odd images round/over/through the head is strange enough. Now the binaural was really good. But today ‘phone designers are playing with more than Diffuse Field and coming up with more things like angling the drivers inward and a thing call Room Feel to mimic a room. Then there are all sorts of processors from Dolby…Bose…we go on.

Michael, what are the inexpensive headphones you found better than the expensive audio monitor cans? Please PM me if you prefer.

Sonic

Hi Michael and Zonees

As we enter 2014, Sonic did a look back at what my system was like at the start of 2013 then compared it with what the set up is now.  A lot has changed in 12 months but the underlying thing is I can see times and times when Sonic might slip into conventional audio-thought and strike out on my own, away from the Tune.

Each time, the path of the Tune calls me back.  Not that it is anything mystical but the Tune delivers musick and shows up the paucity of the audiophile approach because Mr Green knows what he is talking about.

Here’s what the system was at the start of 2013



And at the close of 2013….



The musick is good   

Sonic

Hi Sonic Happy New Year  

Remembering models of headphones for me seems like an impossible task but I'll do some thinking on it. Shoot I can't even remember where I live most of the time   

I apperiate what you said about me knowing what I'm doing. My take on it is that even though I was engineering I was much more of a listener than a book study. I was always the guy who couldn't wait for everyone to leave so I could really listen, or in a reocording setting be the one moving things around .25" inches at a time in the studio while the engineers were in the control room manipulating and bending. I did my share of bending too but had to know what I was bending from and to.

You see in the picture of Diane, well one session I was listening and when she would hit the one key I heard something odd to me. It wasn't that the pipe was out of tune but more there was something odd going on. After the concert I was so curious that I went behind and found that someone had left a hammer behind the pipe while working on some repairs to a wall. I've always been fascinated by the sound of objects and materials and how they make sound or pass sound. How they contibute to the overall. It was always kinda strange to me that people in the audio biz would over look the obvious. For me it was like hearing something and putting it in my sound bank to use for recall.

Another story. One time (many times actually) we were recording and I set up the acoustics and placement of instruments. mics and so on. I would go in the studio, do my thing, come in the control room and do my check. Back and forth so I had an idea for the variables. I would watch the musicians and their movements in the studio as well and would make mental notes comparing their movements to the sound. The engineers as typical gave it no mind and probably wondered why I was even being paid. If I was not doing my thing in the live room I would sit in the back behind the engineer. Almost every recording the same thing would happen if it was a lively room, even a dead room. As the recording would go on the guys would start to drink and set their pop or beer cans or bottles around. You would be surprised (maybe not) at after 2 hours of this how different the recordings were sounding. What was interesting is the engineers had no idea of why the change. You have a guitar speaker being miked right? After time the top of it would be full of cans and or bottles, ash trays or food, or even clothing. The engineers are in the contol room arguing about what was wrong and who did it and how to fix it. I (the young punk) would walk in the room and reset things both in the live room and then back to "reference" in the control room. You guys ask why I go back to reference, well that's how it started.

It's so easy to be thinking instead of listening, and so easy to think "that did nothing" or shouldn't have instead of going after what it did and why and can I repeat it. Sometimes the audio approach is so different from us listening that we can get far away from the sound and over look something that is very simple that will change everything. We loose somehow the concept of what is really going on. Electrons and waves and motion and vibration and amplification and fields ext....and mostly I think we loose our process of thinking about how all those things, big and small, change the entire picture. We sit there and say "this is crap" and yet we might be needing something that wants to be moved a fraction or containing just the slightest different flavor. We also forget that the world is vibrating at a very low and strong frequency constantly which makes things settle and then settle more and then settle even more.

Ever use a blender? We throw all this stuff in the blender then turn it on and watch it mix. We start off with a full pither full and end up with the blend being a thrid of what we started with. Well that is going on with our systems energy. We put everything in and it all starts to settle and blend. You can't remove it once in, you can only view the new blend and keep blending. For me this blend keeps heading toward something that settles in part but keeps reinventing itself and sometimes this new invention gets stuck on a group of gathering frequencies as if someone poured frequency glue into the blender. For this reason you will see me always going after "full range" materials and voicing. It's a formula that keeps me learning and the formula keeps changing as I find some material or some combo that brings to life the alignment of the harmonic structure. Can you get too full range? Maybe, but I have found that when the right combo is found you are thrown into a world of balance, space and fullness that is hard to resist.

Ok, now I have talked myself into the need for some listening