tmsorosk's system

Hi Tim



If you can measure the biggest footprint that you can handle and let me know, that's the starting point. I can't tell what that is next to the speaker on the right (on floor), hopefully it's not a vent. If it is possible to take the platform all the way to the wall that is a big help for bass response. If not then we'll do the best we can.

Keep in mind the bigger the platform the better the range response. As you've seen in reviews some have had me run the platform the entire width of the room. Of course with the carpet in there your not going to want to do that unless we redid the floor in that area (which people do).

So let me know that measurement and I'll do a down view drawing and start things in motion for you to think about.

Once I get the size I then go pick out the wood and start working on it. The platform is voiced differently depending on the size and weight. Sometimes it is a framed platform other times a voiced tuning board with voicing ribs underneigh it. It's just like a piano board.

Hello

I came up with a measurement of 30" wide by 38" deep. That is a vent next to the right speaker, it probably creates static and dries out the speaker cabinet, I've been thinking of eliminating it any way so nows as good a time as any. We can go all the way to the wall.
I was a little out to lunch on the weight, what I gave you was shipping weight, they are 112 lb. The ports fire downward if that makes any difference. They have a small built-in platform under the port. They are current models so there is a lot of info about them on Revels site under Studio 2 if you need it.

Thanks again Tim

Hi Tim

I have been looking at the model, thanks. Also I have an appointment with the lumberyard to look at wood and voicing strips (ribs). 112lbs falls right on the crack, but after looking at your room some more I'm thinking that the rib design is the way to go. I would voice it so that you have a fair amount of flexibility on where to place the speaker on the surface. However the port is going to love this platform and will probably tell you pretty quick where it wants to be.

Better get out your string bass and organ music cause its going to be a whole new adventure. Your also going to increase the size of your sweetspot and stage. Once this is done, we might want to revisit your "first reflection" cause you will want to treat that area differently (I'll help you with this).

Greetings Tim

The First Reflection Points idea so revered by audiophiles. M Green challenged this and it took Sonic some time back then to think there could be a better way to get Tone and Stage than this.

After abandoning the First Reflection Point Thought for tunes from Michael then occasionally revisiting the First Reflection Points with acoustic treatment, Sonic can conclude:

a. If your room is untreated, almost anything will work and the First Reflection Point Thought/Treatment will make a difference which is likely to be an improvement over the Start Line Zero.

b. As you start Tune you will find that the First Reflection Point Thought/Treatment is very primary and later irrelevant in the scheme of things. So much improvements can be got from Tuning in many parts of the room, including high up the walls and ceiling.

c. Then as the Tune creates a new listening space for you, the First Reflection Points become irrelevant and later placing treatment in these zones becomes a backward step that compromises the sound of your room.

In Sonic's listening room there is acoustic absorption (burn as Michael puts it) but nothing remotely near the First Reflection Points. It would be appearing that my set up is dealing with flow along surfaces.

Sonic

Good points Sonic.

I should mention, although I'm always seeking improvements with the main system ( see picture above) it sounds extremely good. There are two things I credit to this. First I've purchased quality built equipment that does not vibrate or resonate excessively under normal conditions. Most of the equipment doesn't require excessive isolation or mass loading or other bizarre and unsightly forms of stabilization to sound natural. The second reason is, I've recessed the equipment into the front wall to reduce air born vibrations and stabilize and reduce the migration of vertical and horizontal resonations caused by speaker to floor interactions. After much testing it became clear that the use of spikes, cones, shelves and isolation devices amplified and exasperated the problem. I found every isolation device including spikes had it's own flavor.
As we know EVERYTHING resonates at a given frequency so anything we add anywhere can have an unnatural and in most cases unwanted affect.    

  Have a grand day  -   Tim

Hi Tim and Tunees

Count your lucky stars my friend   I hardly ever run into someone who has a system working for them without needing an vibratory overhaul. But, as Tim says take a look at the before and after, there's something very important here.





Look at what Tim has removed from the equation. This is a perfect example of pressure zone balancing. By removing the acoustical distortion happening in the front left corner, the left and right corner loading has been evened out more.

Also I'm thinking that there is a little magical room port action going on with the opening behind the right speaker.

Hi Tim

I was thrilled at your last post on the Stereophile forum. Absolutely right on  

As I said there, people are so use to a fixed way of thinking in this hobby that they are over looking that all of this is variable. No one has to land on a pitch that is slightly out, or something out of balance, or a different recording sounding odd. This whole hobby is and has been tunable.

But here's the thing. The reviewers even though they did reviews on me didn't want to get all crazy over this tunable stuff cause it suggest that maybe a products (speakers, amps and so on) sound is not what everyone thought they were. "it's easier to move a box than a method" is what I was told by several of the guys, so even though I was tuning them in they didn't want to have people questioning the plug and play cause it was generating ads and a market that was feeding the audiophile industry. If you look back though you will see where the reviewers were starting to tune, but it was too big of a step for the industry to turn everything over to variable.

You see, all of this has to become variable anyway. Sooner or later this is going to become the norm for the audiophile, to get a system and tune it in. Right now it may sound like another way among many others, but there will be many companies who will be making components that you buy, bring it home and tune it in. We got part way there by all this plug and play stuff but this only proves the point that systems are meant and need to be tuned.

Why is it taking them so long?

It's taking so long to catch on for only one reason. Ads, and the reluctance of a small industry to risk their cash flow and probably reputations to a degree.

All this time the industry has been recreating the same thing, but now that their market is drying up the timing is right to reintroduce tuning. This time maybe they won't be so afraid of change. The great thing is this, no one can try tuning a say it doesn't work. Of course it does, and everytime someone makes a change for the better or worse their tuning. They not be tuning in the right direction but that will come in time as they learn more about how to.

If I may, let me share something with you.

If your a reviewer or stereo store. How long does it take to sell a component? An internet sale is 20 minutes. A pre-sold store sale is a little longer. How long does it take to read an article? Not long. Now how long does it take to set up a system and get it sounding good?

That's the part the industry wanted nothing to do with. At first you had components and speakers. Then cable swapping & accessories, then racks and acoustics and other accessories. If you follow the history of all this you will see how the hobby was built. System tuning is a chapter that is barely getting scratched, for one, it takes a lot of time to tell someone how to, two reviewers don't do it, and three it would lead to equipment design changes. look at audiocircle and these audiophile engineering sites. They stay pretty busy swapping parts, but still aren't tuning. So, now you have an industry in a bunch of camps and every camp thinks they are right. Of course they do, their guys. But what happens when you start tuning?

When you start tuning you are now talking about variables and that scares the willys out of the engineer. You read a manual on a stringed instrument and you'll find tons of things to do that are inbetween the notes, you suggest something other than fixed to an engineer and they will swear systems don't vibrate. Scared to death that a change will happen that they can't put a number on. They'll go screaming (I've seen them) distortion if it is something they don't get. And that's what has happened to the audiophile world. It has gone from fixed to fixed and doesn't realize that this whole thing is variable.

Hello Michael

I was wondering if there had been any progress on my platforms ?

I'm not in a hurry and would always rather do things right than fast.

Thanks Tim

Hi Tim

I apologize for being so slow. Here's the instrument platform. I actually got this idea from making cello platforms years ago for the San Francisco Symphony. I designed a peg for them and ended up making an entire platform. I then try it out on my Wilson/Goldmund/Avalon clients.



Underneath you will see the voicers. Once you get the tone right your set to go.

The speakers sit on the platform and the vibrations make their way to the voicers underneath the top tuning board. The top board and voicers are separated by metal and wood washers. You will get a couple different types of these so that you can get the voicing right if too one way or the other tone wise. You will also be able to adjust from the top after everything is set. The 5/16 spikes are more like grounding rods. So once the tone of the unit is set the rods make their way to ground completing the transfer.

This is a perfect setup for the style and weight of your speakers.

  

Hi Tim

Just thought I would give this a bump incase you wanted to give your playlist.

What provoked this question you may ask ?
Over the holidays several groups of friends from are audio club came over to listen to music and chat about audio. These chaps and gal usually come over in groups of 3 or 4 as there are just to many to come at once. We rarely agree on the topics we choose to discuss, we all seem to think we know what is right, rarely agreeing on a single topic. But it's interesting when we sit quietly and listen we all seem to agree on what we are hearing. Each has his or her perception of whats best or preferred but the changes we might make to a system while listening are all perceived the same by nearly everyone.
Maybe we should do less talking and more listening as talking only makes it to are ears, music gets to are souls.

Thanks for reading - Tim

Hi Tim

I enjoy TuneLand, actually I love TuneLand, and couldn't imagine TuneLand without my listening rooms around me. There's nothing like the sound of music pulling you toward the seat.

What I like about your system most of all, is that you have several of them. Even though you are not variably tuning them to the degree some of us do here, you are able to go system to system and hear the difference between the different systems and how they react to the recording differently.

About the difference between listeners and their thoughts about audio, I don't really pay that much attention. I just stay focused on making systems that will do anything and go anywhere the listener wants to go. And if I can add to their experience in some way through what I have learned, that's a plus. The differences will always be there as we are all different.

When a tunee comes to my place, one of the things I enjoy watching (if they know what they're doing) is watching them tune and seeing where they went with the system. Like Herns for example. He's very busy traveling but when he stops by he does magic, and I can easily fall into his listening word. Even if it's a different tune than I would do, just being able to hear the same music through his ears is very exciting for me. The same thing happens with Harold. I could sit there and listen to his views on music from a guy who plays guitar, and tune things from that view point all day long.

It's cool if they want to listen to my setup, but it's really cool watching them tune in their sound and listening to that same piece through their vision.

good to see you , and tell your friends they are more than welcome

Might be fun for you guys to be able to have a place to hang out when you aren't visiting each other.

Not sure if this will make it, this was a past system i had, check out the home made sub and spikes, lol.

Hi Tim

I resized your pic.

Pretty trip-y. Kinda retro-mod cool, was it down firing?

Yep those are some serious spikes.

Thanks for the resize Michael, at least I can post a pic without your help now.
Yup, it was 18" of down firing richness that you just don't get from smaller subs.
Here's another past system, viewed from the mechanical room, simplicity at it's finest. lol

Hi Tim!

What were those spikes made of? Surreal the whole thing looks.

What crossover point did you use between the main speakers and the sub?

Did you ever find a difference in speed between the 18 inch sub and the main speakers...wait....Sonic sees something -- are there side firing woofers at the inner sides of the speakers?

Sonic

Sonic.beaver wrote:

Hi Tim!

What were those spikes made of?  Surreal the whole thing looks.

What crossover point did you use between the main speakers and the sub?

Did you ever find a difference in speed between the 18 inch sub and the main speakers...wait....Sonic sees something -- are there side firing woofers at the inner sides of the speakers?

Sonic

The spikes were made from steel ( cold roll ) that I had machined to a point, the machinist thought I was nuts.
For a while I used a Paradigm X850 crossover/amp, at one point I used a Paradigm X30 electronic crossover. In that mode I tried many different amps including bridging a Mark Levinson #332. The sub weighed 300 pounds and the 18" driver did work very well with every speaker I used it with including the Angstrom Abbligato's and there 10" side firing woofers, pictured above. Although many folks think of a big sub as slow moving, I always assumed the big driver didn't have to move very far to output huge amounts of deep, rich bass, in some ways making it seem faster than it likely was. I've owned many subs both home built and store purchased, probably more than a dozen, I've always felt 18 inches was the magic number for true sub bass output.
Tim

Hi Tim

I had 2 systems at TuneVilla (the original tunable house) using 18" (treated paper woofer) subs. One was a huge cabinet down firing, the other built into a peak of an A frame located way up and behind the listener.

Very cool to see your thread take wings

You said you have 3 systems now. I saw the one in your workshop and in your main room. What's the 3rd one like?

I personally love being able to go from system to system. When you get a chance can you take us on a listening tour? Also as your starting to share past systems, it would be cool to see your component journey.

Cool stuff my friend Super glad you've made us your audio home.

Oh BTW got some X30 fans here, me included. A very useful tool.

Hey

Those rooms at TuneVilla sound way cool Michael, great name no less.

I do have a third system although it's a private thing, only a few close friends have seen the inside of my vintage suite. Most of the gear is only getting close to vintage status. You'll likely remember some of the rubble, Conrad-Johnson Art 1, Cary 805's, Linn Sondek CD12 and LP12, Sonus Faber Guarneri Homage, etc. What makes this room special to me is not so much the equipment but the entire room is decorated in a nostalgic manner including wallpaper, paint color, ornaments etc. Most of the furnishings were handed down to me from parents or grandparents, even a few paintings and nik-naks from my great great grandmother.
It's where I go to forget where I am.
 Tune on
   Tim

A great place of reflection and peace no doubt

Here's the same past system configured a bit differently.

Well, i'm on the merry-go-round again, as they say.
Yesterday I inadvertently heard a pair of speakers that stopped me in my tracks and left me with mouth agape etc.
Sonus faber Amati Anniversario's. Although I loved my Revel Studio 2's, the magic the Amati's conveyed was nothing short of divine.

Any setup tips would be appreciated.

Hi Tim

Not many things more fun in this hobby, than hearing something new. It begins to stretch our reality and somehow gives us permission to take further steps.

For myself it is all consuming, and what has lead me to a system that is totally tunable, or I should say as tunable as my living conditions allow .

An exciting time for you my friend

I'd be interested to see what your thoughts are about how this has got you thinking. Are you thinking new speakers, system change, or what you might do to your room and perhaps other areas that may incorperate what you just heard. Any way you go, I want you to know we're here with you to share our thoughts, hopes and journey.



gotta love this hobby

Michael Green wrote:

Hi Tim

Not many things more fun in this hobby, than hearing something new. It begins to stretch our reality and somehow gives us permission to take further steps.

For myself it is all consuming, and what has lead me to a system that is totally tunable, or I should say as tunable as my living conditions allow .

An exciting time for you my friend

I'd be interested to see what your thoughts are about how this has got you thinking. Are you thinking new speakers, system change, or what you might do to your room and perhaps other areas that may incorperate what you just heard. Any way you go, I want you to know we're here with you to share our thoughts, hopes and journey.



gotta love this hobby

The speakers are a done deal Michael, pick them up on Saturday, may have to make other changes to make it all come together. I'm a phile, change, listen, change again, listen, tune, retune and basically have fun.

Tim