Ron's System

All:

I actually was in hospital the past week; hence no posts...long story short, I am totally ok!

Now back to the listening!

sonic: You brought up a very good point: I was listening to dance/house music; which can be very "loud" like Rock 'n Roll...when I made those measurements.

I am certain if I put on Jazz, it would be lower; and classical, lower still. Very good point and thank you...as it also helps others on this forum to reference SPL more accurately.

Michael:

I truly can't thank you enough for your kindness and generosity. I am looking very forward to trying *some* new things and learning ALOT of things!

As for the platform for the PS Audio; that really is the heart of my system; as CD and FLAC both go through it! So, I may be open to attempt modifying it; with a challenge for you: I know by now you are definitely a master craftsman with respect to woodworking: Would you be able to make the exact picture you drew for Sonic into a very visually appealing, elegant wooden work of art? I used to do woodworking myself, and I know things like inlays and even just choice of woods or stain can really improve aesthetic. If that totally is not your thing, that's ok too...am just genuinely curious.

As for the rest of the audience, I thank everyone for just welcoming me and interacting in kind, intelligent ways.


Kindest Regards,

Ron

Hi Ron

Glad to hear you are ok

Actually, I'm a horrible wood worker. A master at voicing wood but have made the ugliest prototypes in the world I think

If you see anything pretty on our site it's because they were done by one of the real craftsmen we have.

Michael & All:

I am also considering using Mu metal to isolate the transformer all contained within the manufacturer's chassis...any recommendations for or against Mu metal?

Respectfully,

Ron

Hi Ron

I would start by looking up mu-metal shielding and read the uses. I like Mr. Green's method of tuning and since we've been using it with our system things like shielding have new meaning. With any shielding comes good and bad and if you study what Michael is doing you will see that it is not about the shielding but making a system variable. Every time I remove blockage in our system and tune the energy the music comes to life. Every time we add dampening problems start showing up. Maybe we don't notice them at first but after playing a few recordings we notice that there is something missing. You might want to read Sonic's thread where Mr. Green shows us the electromagnetic fields being tuned. https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t258p225-tuning-my-musical-journey . I've never seen anyone able to do what Michael does. He looked at the picture and knew which transformer was out of balance and why. How does someone do that?

Something else I have noticed about Michael. Michael knows the answer long before we do and spends most of his time trying to help us learn how to do audio. I had to read him for some time before I understood how he teaches. Mr. Green has done this for so long he can hear your sound. If you pay attention to his questions and answers he's always sizing up your sound. I was reading an article about how Mr. Green would come to a show and people would move out of their chairs to let him listen in the rooms. If you had a Mr. Green approved room at an audio show in the 90's you were ordained. My wife and I have come to trust Mr. Green as if he were sitting in our listening room.

This might be my longest post ever. Could I ask you a question. Why did you say isolate the transformer?

I'm another one that has moved away from close quarters shielding. At first I thought I was hearing the music get tighter until I started playing my reference CD's and LP's and was surprised at how much music was missing to get what I thought was better sound. To someone who hasn't developed good referencing I can see where they could see this as a plus but for those who have heard more out of their stage MU Metal dampening takes away from the music and makes it sterile.

rotelguy wrote:

... Could I ask you a question. Why did you say isolate the transformer?

rotelguy:

Perhaps that was a mis-use of technical terms? When looking at Michael's drawings further up in the thread, he is showing the transformer as completely separate from the chassis...to me that is isolating it from interfering with the rest of the components. In another article I read about Mu metal, the author built a little cage of sorts around the transformer with that material... both of these look like they are trying to "isolate" and separate the transformer from the rest of the components. In these cases, isolating is meant as a positive attribute.

I hope that clarifies things.

Respectfully,

Ron

Greetings Gentlemen

Sonic has been learning some fascinating things from Michael about transformers and how to control the fields they give off with Space Cones. I am finding those toroidals give of fields that respond to tuning more than the cube-transformers.

Sonic

All:

Here is the latest addition to my system; as promised. For now, I have not tuned it in any way...and I am feeding it via Audioquest optical cabling to my DAC; thereby in essence turning a $300 spinner into a $1300 one.

As a really lucky side bonus, it looks like it *belongs* in my system. I got very lucky with the matching design. Critical listening to come.

Good Morning Ron

Even before I knew of Mr. Green the word isolate in audio never sat well with me. It's an audiophile theory gone bad. Doesn't make sense to call something isolated when it is directly connected to oscillating energy sources and outputs. I understand why commercial designing uses the word as an attempt to isolate or limit to a degree major mechanical vibrations. What I don't see is electric coming from the wall going through a transformer and the new current coming out the other side while still connected as being isolated. From my view if it is connected it is not isolated. When I think isolate I think of a disconnect of oscillative energy. An audio chain is the opposite of isolation. Isolation means disconnect and the audio chain means connection.

things are different here aren't they

(Posted over on Stereophile...copied here to keep everyone up to date on my system)

All:

I have had the player now for exactly two days... and have purchased:
Miles Davis: Kind of Blue
Led Zeppelin I
Roger Waters: Radio K.A.O.S. (found it in a bargain bin. lol)

As for aesthetics, it blends in very well!  

As for LISTENING....granted, I have yet to "tune" and "tweak" it....but I will open a separate thread on that..this thread was for picking out a sub $1500 player.... and I am lucky to have had wise help from other members and catch this one on a refurbished steal for $225 including warranty.

I also purchased an AudioQuest optical cable and feed it directly to my DAC...I evaluated the onboard DAC briefly, but mine handily bested it as I figured.

Thanks to all who helped...here are my initial opinions:

I find its build quality to be excellent; and I truly again lucked out in that it aesthetically blends in quite nicely with my Creek Integrated. Though the remote is small and cheap feeling, it does a good job. The unit scans very quickly with audible cues over the disc...and Skips to songs very quickly..in fact it is very fast once loaded and a joy to use. The unit is also slightly slow to initially read the CD as mentioned in the Stereophile review, but I find that very minor and worth the speed of skipping and FF/REV through discs. I expected Redbook to be slightly grainy/metallic sounding and so I really can't fault NAD for that; and when there are several Rock instruments playing at once, the sound does get a touch distorted; though again, I think that is the limitation of the Redbook format and not the player. In fact, if I was not conducting a critical reference listening of a song with a higher resolution FLAC, I would be delighted with this player either with or without the external DAC as an excellent entry level though audiophile grade CD player. It is only through these intense listening sessions where I can nit pick it. If I want to just jam Led Zeppelin or Miles Davis, I just sit back and enjoy the music. I would back up Stereophile's recommendation of this player as an excellent entry level audiophile unit; and DEFINITELY recommend it if one is using a dedicated external DAC.

I will leave listeners with this comment:
The built-in DAC did a decent job in projecting a soundstage with width height and depth through my Creek.. though my external DAC improves on it, this is a great way to get back into Redbook or to replace a broken player even without an external DAC. I can now go to a music store and scan for bargains in Vinyl OR CD, so that it a major plus! I can always convert the CD over to FLAC as well. So, for $225, it was a wise purchase.

If anyone has any questions regarding the 516, feel free to ask.

Thanks All,

Ron

ps. Here is a pic showing the internals. The transport looks beefier than some I have seen (of note: NAD did improve the transport from the previous unit, the 515), and to my delight there are TWO transformers; I would guess one for the digital circuits and one for analogue. There are also a few decent sized capacitors and a lot of circuitry for a DEDICATED AUDIO CD PLAYER. No DVD crap here!  

rotelguy wrote:

Good Morning Ron

Even before I knew of Mr. Green the word isolate in audio never sat well with me. It's an audiophile theory gone bad. Doesn't make sense to call something isolated when it is directly connected to oscillating energy sources and outputs. I understand why commercial designing uses the word as an attempt to isolate or limit to a degree major mechanical vibrations. What I don't see is electric coming from the wall going through a transformer and the new current coming out the other side while still connected as being isolated. From my view if it is connected it is not isolated. When I think isolate I think of a disconnect of oscillative energy. An audio chain is the opposite of isolation. Isolation means disconnect and the audio chain means connection.

things are different here aren't they

I'm not sure what your intent is with this reply... though from the looks of Tuneland, I think a whole bunch of folks are into physically *REMOVING* transformers from the chassis...to me, that's about as isolated as one can get! In this case, there is definitely further isolation than physical: EMF isolation, vibration isolation, thermal isolation, etc.

While I do agree that it is not truly isolated from the electrical circuit, I am again not sure of your point.

Respectfully,

Ron

All:

I would like to place a link to a very lengthy but very informative read where a serious hobbyist has taken a lot of time with writing up their POSITIVE findings with Mu Metal:

Mu Metal Article on Sterephile

Respectfully,

Ron

ps. Our own Michael Green also showed support of the hobbyist's direction..so all please read with an open mind...There is a bit of back and forth dialogue in the beginning, so just scroll through it until you see pictures of circuit boards and stuff... ENJOY!

Hi Ron

We do read Stereophile forum some but honestly it's not worth weeding through the forests. Debates over isolation when there is no such thing in the true sense is a waste of time when you get into tuning. While we read audiophile spins on that forum it's nice to come back home to a more practical world. Reading posts by people like May Belt and the never ending trolling of Geoff Kait it takes the wind out of the hobby of serious listening fast. There's no profit gained by spending most of ones time reading audio spins. I don't see those post as being open minded in the slightest and I'm sure Mr. Green would never allow this type of activity here If you want an open thread on Mu Metal start one in chat here and see the difference between a thread caught up in trolling vs a thread that will seriously take you through the tuning of audio parts. From what I read in your link you have two guys starting to look into Mu Metal and one troll. I would venture to say that most here have studied this side of tuning for many years and would be happy to give views from more of an experienced point of view.

Mr. Green want to jump in on this one?

My intent is to welcome you into more of an advance crowd of listeners who spend a lot of time as Mr. Green has said on Stereophile "doing". TuneLand is more about exploring the hobby from the most open minded point of view possible. When you have a person who has spent their life exploring from the music side of things with total honesty and when you get to know him no pretension or pretending it allows you to look at your system and sound with that same honesty. My wife and I think of it as we can either have the truth or spend our hobby assuming. From everything we have ever read about Mr. Green and done based on his methods we doubt you will ever find a more straight shooter even if it hurts sometimes. Hopefully this helps and hopefully you will get honest answers here without the sidetracks that take away from the listening to music.

Jim

Hi Jim

I was just about to post when I saw your last one. Holy Smokey Daddies, want a job as my promoter

I'll be back up in a little, but got some heavy listening going on today so will be in and out.

To your point of "doing". This has been my calling card since a kid. Assuming to me gets so confusing and seems to get stuck in the "IF's" and that's not my style nor has it been something I have been able to get away with in any of my jobs in the music biz. When your "live" or doing something that is going to be listened to forever making the shortest way to getting there cutting through the bull is far more productive. And if your going to do this proper you don't sleep until you "know", cause there are no second chances. I think this is why I gravitated to the behind the scenes in the production biz. There's a pride thing for me I think when someone says "how did he do that". The truth of it is though, lots of never ending hours of exploring and no sleep. In my life the music has never been turned off and for myself, this is home. This and designing in general.

Also thanks for the press on the forum

I don't do TuneLand to be different, but to express my appreciation for the craft from every angle possible. I think for newer readers they should spend some time as you guys apparently have (also appreciated) looking into what we have done as an experienced journey. Looking at what I have done, am doing and the way I approach goals for the future paints the mg picture pretty clear. Sometimes I wonder "how can someone take this in from a starting place of ground zero" and I believe this is where time and maturity comes in. The music industry is so exciting that it's easy to jump in without taking the time to breathe. Everything seems new and the truth at first, but in time the reality starts to sink in and I like what you said about "honesty" comes in waves for the audiophile and music in general.

it goes like this

We jump in with both feet and hear something different and assume it's better without looking at what is better and sometimes more importantly, what was left behind. The balancing act for the listener who has not grown up in music production (different levels of this too) is based on reacting, many times I have noticed, to the change itself in terms of what the listener wants to be and not so much what the music is. If there is one thing I have learn and re-learned many times over, is the vastness of the audio signal itself. People saying they have referenced the whole of a recording without matching the recorded code is nothing more than a myth from the hell of ego. And this brings me to Mu-Metal.

coming up next

started a Mu-metal thread


https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t312-to-shield-or-not-to-shield

rotelguy:

While you discussed further the merits of Michael's practices, you did not answer or address my original reply/question regarding our disagreement on the use of the term "isolation".  I will repeat it here:

rrstesiak wrote:

I'm not sure what your intent is with this reply... though from the looks of Tuneland, I think a whole bunch of folks are into physically *REMOVING* transformers from the chassis...to me, that's about as isolated as one can get! In this case, there is definitely further isolation than physical: EMF isolation, vibration isolation, thermal isolation, etc.

While I do agree that it is not truly isolated from the electrical circuit, I am again not sure of your point.

I will further add that if you look at Michael's diagram of his recommended reconfiguration of my DAC, you'll see the transformer removed, or "isolated" from the chassis.

Michael Green wrote:

I have taken the liberty of including Merriam-Webster's definition of isolate:

: to put or keep (someone or something) in a place or situation that is separate from others

: to find and deal with (something, such as a problem) by removing other possibilities

: to separate (something, such as a chemical) from another substance : to get (something) or an amount of (something) that is not mixed with or attached to anything else

So you can see I have in fact used the term correctly.

And as for implying I do not "do" but ask "IF"s...may I refer you to the following Stereophile articles I have started in my short month or two on that forum:

rrstesiak wrote:

Reference Listen: Supertramp: Brother Where You Bound

rrstesiak wrote:

Let's do some referencing: Miles Davis : So What?

rrstesiak wrote:

How I achieved an excellent 3D Sound Stage

rrstesiak wrote:

Best CD Player Under $1500

and..

rrstesiak wrote:

Critique My System!

And may I also refer you to this very thread and my bringing the topic of Mu Metal back to Tuneland?

I found those ALL as "doing" and productive; and judging by the many replies, so did a lot of other listeners.

I look forward to your reply -

Respectfully,

Ronald R. Stesiak, Phd
National Science Foundation

Hi Ron

Hopefully this will serve as a way to describe the different points of view or at least mine.

To start you said "Perhaps that was a mis-use of technical terms? When looking at Michael's drawings further up in the thread, he is showing the transformer as completely separate from the chassis...to me that is isolating it from interfering with the rest of the components." Are you sure that you understand mechanical transfer Ron?

I don't want to be down playing your involvement here but it almost seems that you make statements without asking the simple necessary questions. Because I use MGA products and have had a chance to see them up close it makes it easier for me to make the statements I do. What I see in the drawing is far from isolation.



Without going any further in the debate department lets see if I can explain what is going on here.

I see the unit in a tunable mechanical device. The transformer has been placed outside of the housing to get it away from the chassis influence on the created field. The field is still there and still part of the signal. If it is part of the signal it is not isolated but connected as part of the audio chain.

"he is showing the transformer as completely separate from the chassis"

Are we looking at the same picture? Ron, do you not see that all the pieces are touching? Ron, I don't need to go further into your comments if you are not able to see the device for what it is instead of what you are trying to make it into. To go back I see the unit, a tuning board sitting directly on the chassis, a tuning bolt going up through the middle and all kinds of connected transfer devices. Underneath I see another transfer product. Looks like LTR voicing blocks. These are sitting on yet another voicing device with tuning spikes going into whatever furniture this is on.

Having products like this myself I can tell you that nothing here is isolated. Instead Michael has turned your unit into a variable tuning component. He has made an adjustable field and mechanical transfer device with by the looks of it would allow you to get an extremely flexible sounding product vs one that gives you one sound.

I'm sorry if my comments made you feel less of a contributor, but I suggest you look around at some of the systems here and see where after looking at yours I would naturally see this as barely getting started in the doing department. We all have to start somewhere but let's not try to leap frog here. We haven't talked much about Mu Metal because most of us have been past this point for quite some time. What I would do is build your thread as a journey that is yours and not think that everyone is back at the starting gate. When people come here they go through a process that is unique to them. From what I have experienced Michael covers things as a need or topic surfaces, but his specialty is to walk you through your particular system and sound as you grow as a tunee. I would think that Mr. Green has a fairly extensive history in shielding.

Jim

PS: spokesperson  If only I had a tenth his wisdom and knowledge

Jim:

We have come to an understanding.
You have explained very well the many variables involved and many *connections* from the transformer to the tuning apparatus.
I was merely hung up on the fact the transformer no longer resides internally within the chassis.
I appreciate you taking the time to write a very well articulated response. Again, I now "get it".

In short, thank you.

Kind Regards,

Ron

Great minds, great move

It was nice to see how you two worked through that

There are a lot of things in this industry and hobby that have terms used that are correct on one hand but have a slightly different meaning or use when moved to the practical application part of science. I'll confess I'm constantly looking up words to try to find the ones that get to the point through the eyes of what we have been doing here, and sometimes it's harder than it may appear and I almost feel like the re-writing of audio needs to be made, but this would be no easy task.

First and foremost the connection between the terms in real music would need to be applied to an engineering mindset and that is tricky cause science is not only measurements but more about the actual doing. Try telling that to a science theorist though and be prepared to be be-headed

On the stereophile forum last week a young lady came up and posted on the actual event of tuning "silence". You could hear a pin drop in responses. Here this gal was explaining something that happens every time we turn on a piece of music and no one made the connection or I would suspect not even realize that she was explaining something so basic in music yet completely over the head of the audiophile.

The audiophiles next big step is experiencing and learning the audio trilogy on a far more practical level and not on the learned intellect of books smarts. How can each acoustical mechanical and electrical all be on the same page?  They are linked together in a way that is so fundamental in practice yet so far away from each other by the definitions given to us. Is webster wrong? Of course not, but it is a guide to a language and must grow as we do by the actual event. I look at it this way. The doing is science, and everything that follows is the language of what has been done. Is the final definition (words) the doing? No, but it is the limited understanding of the doing based on the tools at hand. The defining is in the splitting of hairs whereas the doing is backing up enough to see the full head of hair. Everytime we focus in on the splitting of the hairs we enter the world of interpretation, and this is where our own personal uniqueness comes in to play and into bias. This is why I try my best to focus on the overall and at the same time design so someone can go after their particular unique view of exploring music. This approach moves me to not get stuck on one "absolute" sound but instead finding the ways to bring all that info into a setting of more, getting closer to all that is there and loosing as little as possiable.  

The focusing in is the easy part. Opening up to the "real" size "real" space is where most get boxed in. Most in this industry both pro and home try to focus in way before reaching what I consider the starting point, the whole picture "space".

You won't find audiophiles able to explain why a 25' x 35' recording room is reduced to close to a flat screen tiny version of in playback. They stumble, assume and usually fall over themselves before they will attempt the science of "doing". On TuneLand you are the guys who give the answers, as you trade your bias for practical application. It's not so much the questions, but what drives us to find the answers. Unlocking a recorded code has little to do with marketing stereo equipment and everything to do with the method of tuning.

always a joy reading you guys exploring is the door to living

reminds me of a story

In the studio, the engineers were having an argument over why the instruments were intune in the live room yet out of tune in the control room. They came back from lunch, and everything was intune in both places with me sitting there with a smile. Fun times Sometimes words get in the way of the solution.

I miss you Andy Gibb, bros forever still hurts

Michael:

Could you reply with pricing for everything pictured in your diagram for my PS audio Dac? Let me know if you need physical measurements.

The reply can be sent via email.
I was just going to email you directly, but I needed to refer to the diagram in this thread and felt this was the best way to communicate.

Kind Regards,

Ron

All:

I am ordering the tuning blocks mentioned on this site.

I have a good question for the tunees:

Should I place 3 or 4 blocks under each component? perhaps it also varies by component... In this case, let's stick with my Integrated amp.

I have read many conflicting articles on this. An interesting point in favour of the 3 blocks is the fact Rega uses three supports in their turntable design....


Best Regards,

Ron

All:

I will be evaluating the Creek Ruby DAC next week when it comes over from England. Some early specs are that it uses a special ribbon cable to interface with my Creek Evolution 50A running a fully balanced signal... pretty cool. Saves some money on Balanced Interconnects. It also has a RBDS Digital FM Tuner built in that passes the digital signal over to the DAC for processing FM Radio too...again, pretty serious engineering over at Creek. I can't wait to evaluate the unit!

Stay tuned.....


Ron

Hi Ron

I keep forgeting to tell you, but with components you really shouldn't be running a CDP on-top of an Amp. That's a signal no-no

I kept wanting to mention that and then when I'm doing something else I think of it "OH no Ron has that player on-top the amp".

better late then never



Also (sorry for playing audio dad) you do know it takes at least 3 months for DAC's to warm up to a system?

It looks like your doing fast plug & play testing according to what I have read, and equipment takes a lot longer than this to start to warm up to other components. Doing testing with components at 50% or less their potential can lead you to a never ending plug & play life. I mean that's ok if that's what you want to do, but I just wanted to give you a heads up, that's one of the reasons more seasoned hobbyist don't do the buy based on magazine reviewing.

Ron Said

"
I am ordering the tuning blocks mentioned on this site.

I have a good question for the tunees:

Should I place 3 or 4 blocks under each component? perhaps it also varies by component... In this case, let's stick with my Integrated amp.

I have read many conflicting articles on this. An interesting point in favour of the 3 blocks is the fact Rega uses three supports in their turntable design...."

mg

These are Tuning Blocks!

I would recommend reading up on when and why they are used by some of the members up here. I for example change their positioning anytime I want a presentation change. For example if my drums are sounding tight but I want more air and body I will adjust for that. The key to this is to get use to the sound of your blocks and come up with your own voicing plans based on the sound they are giving you at the time of listening. You might find (I do) that they sound great with 4 on some recordings and the next you might favor 3. I basically learn the sound of each block I use and then as I'm listening make any change accordingly.

Like I said take a look at how people use them.

have fun

Hi Ron

In Sonic's experience, it is four Tuning Blocks (Low Tone Redwood blocks) for all my gear with the exception of the Rega P5 which has three elastomer feet so three Low Tone Redwood blocks go under these. I have tried three blocks per piece of gear but over time always gravitated back to four.

I also found a row of Low Tone Redwood blocks along a concrete wall formed a "Greek chorus" of harmonics in Sonic room. These blocks are good things that influence the sound profoundly when used in the right spots. Now in the Tune there are those who will spend days with one CD playing it over and over (errr...that shortens the CD player laser life, yes?) and tuning the system to that CD as Mr Green does. For this approach three blocks may work for one CD and four for the next. Sonic just plays a series of CDs, LPs and SPs as the feeling takes me over an evening. Maybe this weekend Sonic will list what I play as an example.

Sonic