Bill333's System

4.  Changed out power supply cap at C15 for ASC X386S Oil Cap

The ASC X386S is a film in oil capacitor that comes in a metal can.  The 40uF/440V version of it that I have is about the size and shape of a can of Red Bull.  The stock cap in this position is a Panasonic 100uF/400V electrolytic.  The ASC cap is far too large and heavy to be placed on the circuit board, so I attached it with 22 gauge wires long enough to let the cap sit off to the side.  

My first concern was that using only 40uF instead of 100 would cause a frequency roll off, but this turned out not to be the case.  My initial listening impression was that there seemed to be a little more clarity and a little bit more solidity to the music, but that the differences were very minor.  Since these parts have to be soldered in place, there's no convenient way to A/B them, I have to wait for the system to settle every time I make a change.  So I'm working from aural memory.  Big improvements tend to be noticeable, but small ones or sideways moves tend to leave me guessing as to whether or not anything really changed.  I am after all, trying to sort out the sonic effects of a part change from the sonic effects of fresh solder, settling et cetera.  My impression of the improvement is that it was minor if any, up until:

The Game Changer
I had the cap sitting directly on the equipment platform top, while the amplifier itself is placed on redwood blocks.  On a whim, I found another redwood block and stuck it under the cap.  

WHOA!!    

I thought I was going to get a small dose of the usual effects of the redwood: fuller bass and warmer tonality.  Instead I got a major dose of vivid.  Voices took a large step towards spooky real and everything sounded clearer, more dynamic and tonally richer.  I stopped fiddling and just listened to albums until I couldn't stay awake any longer.

I think the real value of this part swap is not the oil can versus the electrolytic, but simply getting the cap off the PCB and off to the side where I can control its vibrational environment with tuned wood, mini-platforms, springboards and other devices.  Clearly, this power supply cap has a profound effect on the sound.  The other major lesson I'm taking home from this is:

Capacitor + Wood = Sonic Ecstasy

This opens the door to a whole new world of custom tuning.  I see all kinds of new experiments on the horizon.  

Update
After further consideration, I think it's probably better to keep the cap attached to the printed circuit board rather than sitting off to the side.  Once the initial excitement of putting the cap on wood was over, I had a long period of not being able to top tune the amplifier to an adequate state of focus.  I think this is because a major piece of its circuit was not attached to the rest.  The vividness didn't stay, but was followed by a long period of woolly, unfocused sound which I had a hard time getting rid of.

On the whole, this was a sideways move at best.

Hi Bill333

How's the amp coming along? Where have you used the Low Tone Redwood blocks in your system? I could get inspiration from you.

Sonic

Hi Sonic,

I wish I had more to offer, but I'm kind of short on inspiration myself lately. I haven't had the system on in a week.  I've been meaning to take the tube amp out of the equipment rack and work on reverse engineering the circuit, but haven't had much time and energy for it lately.  So there's really nothing going on.

One of the big problems I've got is that the system again and again settles into this very woolly, unfocused state and my efforts at top tuning both amp and CD player have not been enough to consistently bring it into focus.  Michael doesn't seem to mind this kind of 'big', but for me I don't  enjoy listening to music when it's like this.  I've got to think the right tuning move could bring things into a good place, but I don't know what it is.  Michael?

The redwood blocks are getting used underneath the amp board and the Magnavox, which is still in its chassis.  So basically in all the spots you'd expect.  

The other big problem I've got going on is that I swapped the Magnavox out for the Altmann DAC and my stripped down Oppo as transport.  I was expecting this to bring greater musical enjoyment and increased goosebumps/reverie experiences, but that didn't happen this time.  Very discouraging, and I can only conjecture as to why it isn't working the way it did for me before.  It could be that the transport isn't up to the task.  The Oppo was stripped completely out of its chassis, which may have been a step too far.  It's a big tangle of circuit boards, wires and cable ribbons and without having it all attached to something, it can't be tuned.  A hot mess, and not the good kind.

When I get some time and some inspiration I'll sort it all out.

"One of the big problems I've got is that the system again and again settles into this very woolly, unfocused state and my efforts at top tuning both amp and CD player have not been enough to consistently bring it into focus.  Michael doesn't seem to mind this kind of 'big', but for me I don't  enjoy listening to music when it's like this.  I've got to think the right tuning move could bring things into a good place, but I don't know what it is.  Michael?"

First I need to adress the "wool" thing. My personal listening turns on a dime, and often depends on my mood. When doing a start up system I always try to push the boundaries of big and all that comes with it so I can see where it goes and how it got there. If I'm caught listening to wool this is why. Wool turns into tight, big and the float. After I get past this stage I turn around and head back the other direction so I can see things on the way back to small.

Bill called me yesterday and the first thing I mentioned was "how bad is it"   He said "how did you know, physic". I have come to know Bill's journey, and part of it is audio and the other part explorer. If you read back through Bill's posts you will see times when he has found it and other times he is in the wilderness. His emails are even more graphic, and at times him walking out of the room when I am there are "can there even be more"   

I think the most interesting thing about Bill's system is it reflects Bill finding Bill. I don't agree with his view of me liking wooly and him liking the opposite, but I do think this helps him define things to himself at the moment. Reason I say this is because I have watched Bill grow as a listener and challenge himself. Recently, as he wrote, he went back to the place he thought was going to prove to him that the Maggie was not as good as the front end combo he has in his mind made reference, or some combo around that area. When he got there though the outcome was different than he thought it would be. At that point I can see the wheels turning and instead of going back to the basics he is tempted to look in the magical beyond of audiophile-ism.  This isn't a bad thing, just an audiophile thing.

Where sonic makes a report as he listens, Bill is more of a moment listener with a feeling that the music gives him, and when moved inside of that place it is the place he wants to be. I have noticed it's almost a mood as much as it is the sound, maybe more. A spiritual place inside of the music which is cool to wittness from outside the room as the song ends and there is a pause, time goes by then the next song begins and he eats it like a gourmet meal. Me being an outsider looking in, and walking into the room after, I have made note that the sound is not the same every time he goes into his zone. I could make a personal note of what I think this is but I believe that as Bill goes through his progression he at times looks back and sees how he has grown as a listener, and he also needs to go back sometimes to move forward. I do find it interesting that as engineered as his thinking is, and this usually means putting things in boxes, he has the most tunable system on the planet. You would think that engineered and variable would not be on the same page but as he made the comment not long ago "the tuning made a bigger difference than changing the part" it makes me think that yes, he may be an engineer in part but there is an explorer in there that goes after a very particulared sense. He may not know at this point, yet, how to put in a box as an engineer what it takes to create or maintain that spiritual sound or place, but when he gets there he knows it is right for him.

Of course I am on the outside looking in, but have enjoyed being a part of his life's journey and he has certainly made an impact on me.

When ever I am in question, I always go back to the basic.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for responding so quickly.  

Quote :

First I need to address the "wool" thing. My personal listening turns on a dime, and often depends on my mood. When doing a start up system I always try to push the boundaries of big and all that comes with it so I can see where it goes and how it got there. If I'm caught listening to wool this is why.

I apologize for accusing you of liking wool.     I always assumed you kind of liked it because we have for a long time seemed to be taking my system in that direction.  I think part of the problem is that I've heard my system at various points on the road to tuned, but I've never really heard one that's there.  I still regret not jumping on a plane and going out to Vegas when you had your system in float a year ago.  I very nearly did buy a plane ticket and fly out the next day.

Quote :

When ever I am in question, I always go back to the basic.

Well, I could put the Magnavox back in and the Sherwood too, for that matter.  It might be nice to go back to a reference and see what I do and don't miss about the TU-879S.  But before I do that, are there any things I could try that might take me beyond woolly and into the next steps of big and float?

Yes, There was something about the idea of the Tube amp a while back and the Maggie that I was hearing in my head and was wondering what it would be like to play with. I don't know about the big caps and where that really took it, but if the right combo of wood under the player is there and you reset your electric panel I would like to hear that sound and then respond.

I think it would be a blast to do what we use to. make the change and then start to head in a direction. We could do that on here if you would like, I would.

So lets see where we are with the Tube/Maggie combo first if you would like. What is between the Platform top and frame BTW? Magic Wood?

is sweet pea behaving?

Quote :

Yes, There was something about the idea of the Tube amp a while back and the Maggie that I was hearing in my head and was wondering what it would be like to play with. I don't know about the big caps and where that really took it, but if the right combo of wood under the player is there and you reset your electric panel I would like to hear that sound and then respond.

Ok, I took out the Altmann/Oppo and put the Magnavox back in.  I also pulled out the oil cap and replaced it with the original electrolytic, so we're back to square one. (except for the V-Caps and the removal of the first pair of coupling caps)  I'm not sure what you mean by resetting the electrical panel?  Are you thinking of the old setup where we had to pull the bottom of the electrical panel out every so often?

Quote :

I think it would be a blast to do what we use to. make the change and then start to head in a direction. We could do that on here if you would like, I would.

We're on our way!  Here's the new setup:

Quote :

So lets see where we are with the Tube/Maggie combo first if you would like. What is between the Platform top and frame BTW? Magic Wood?

There is nothing between the platform top and frame.  One thing that's new since you left is that I drilled and polyed a set of holes for attaching the platform top to the frame.  At the moment, I am using only four screws at the outside corners, but there are more holes if needed.

Quote :

is sweet pea behaving?

Not entirely.  She trashed the whole system and pulled the power wires down a couple weeks ago, but she hasn't shown much interest lately.  Eventually, I will fence them out of the equipment area, but that won't happen until after we get the new floor in the room.

Give me a sound report on the way it is right now.

If it is heading up, then I would like to see what it sounds like with Magic Wood between the top board and LT Redwood.

Don't do everything at once Ok, one step at a time.

Next would be (not until you report back) barely loosen (barely) a screw on the circuit panel.

This system looks so super cool     

in private by email send me some new pics of the circuit panel

Look up above to make sure the wires are straight up above.

Try to think michael when doing this and listening, step by step, settle listen.

Give me reports then I'll go the next steps with you.

Listening report: The system has been playing for 10 hours since I did the changeout and the amplifier work.  Right now the sound is bloated and undefined with an aggressive treble.  There's no lack of bass, but it badly lacks definition and percussive impact.  The treble is very forward and dominates the sonic landscape.

I would like to wait another day or two before I start making changes because it always takes a few days for new solder joints to settle down.  That might take care of a lot of the issue with the treble.

Yep, soldering will do that.

Also include the name of the CD. And when you switch a recording let me know.

Since you put the Tube amp in a while back, at any time did it give you a relaxed top end?

I've got Abbey Road on repeat.

Yes, the top end has been pretty good at some points.  I think settling is all it really took.

Listening Update: What a difference a day makes.  I did a listening check this morning (24 hours settling) and the bloat is gone.  A lot of the treble forwardness has settled out, although some remains.  The soundstage has expanded forward and I'm getting imaging 4 feet in front of the speakers.  The sound is still 'soft', but it's heading in the right direction fast.

 

Great    Now if you can try to remember that moment and how things are so this can be one of your basics. Both transformers are up on Blocks right? Give me a report on the tone tonight if you can.

pics were fine thanks

I listened last night and again this morning and I think the system has stabilized at where it was in my last listening report. The treble still isn't pretty, but I think we're at 90% or more of where we're going to get through settling. I think the rest is the room, and/or the electricity. So I think now is a good time to get started.

Both output transformers are up on redwood blocks. The input transformer sits on the same whiteboard that supports the PCB.

Did you want me to start with the circuit panel? If so, which screws were you thinking of? The ones that fasten the circuit panel to the plywood?

Actually Bill, I would like to hear the transformers up on Magic Wood slivers inbetween the transformer and the LT Blocks.

I put the transformers up on magic wood.  The immediate effect was to drastically lower the tonality, but it does it by scrubbing away a lot of the highs and rounding off what remains.  It gets rid of the treble harshness, but at the expense of the music's excitement and drive.  I'd like to say that I put it in and let it settle for a day before making judgements, but I took it out each time after five minutes because it was ruining the music.

In fact, it was ruining one of the best listening sessions of my life.  I put the top tune on both the amp and DVD player for the first time since I put this system together and I really hit the trifecta.  Without the top tune, the sound is soft overall and the bass is flabby and lacks drive while the treble is irritating on many songs.  It took an hour and a half for the top tune to fully settle in, but when it did the sound was hard hitting, dynamic and smooth with a full, round bass.  The treble still sounded a bit 'hot' on some songs, but the effect mostly seemed to add to the excitement and drive of the music.

I started out listening to 'The Road I'm On' by Dion and found a new state of musical ecstasy which I am naming 'rapturous'.  I don't want to go into details of what this state is like because it still feels kind of personal, but I will say that it was a powerful experience.  I dragged my wife down to listen to a few of the Dion songs and she wanted to listen to one after another.  Her comments were "He was a really great artist" and "that was phenomenal".  I put The Beatles / 'Abbey Road' on next and it was equally awesome.  I listened to several tracks and brought my wife down again to listen to just one song and she ended up listening to the entire second half of the album.

After that, things started to go south again with the treble becoming more coarse at something like the four hour point after I put the top tune.  So stability is an issue.  I tried resetting the rods, but it didn't do any immediate good and it was time to go to bed.  I'll see if I can repeat this tomorrow.

I should mention that I put the magic wood under the transformers a little bit differently than your picture.  I used one large piece instead of two small pieces.  I can try it again with two if you think it will make a difference.

Hi Michael

If I got toroidal transformers how do I use Low Tone Redwood blocks under them?

Sonic

You go Bill     

The tune's just sitting there waiting for you buddy   I love it when you find those magic moments  

sonic

I'll jump over on your thread to answer.

Hi Bill

Wanted to throw this out there to you, and to on-lookers where ever they may be and with thoughts of having the ultimate Tube amp. While Harold was here listening you could see the wheels turning and if you looked closely could see a little smoke coming out of the ears from all the thinking. Several times we talked about the system I use and how far it goes, and what may happen to high end audio if these tuning methods were let loose on Tubes. After hearing what I did to the wood and he helped in listening to the wood at the lumberyards, and helped sand and finish, Harold saw that this industry should be about building musical instruments to listen to. You and he I'm sure will want to share notes.

The idea that our hobby could actually become tunable is one that would set a new course, the next chapter, to the search for the perfect sound for any listener. I have always loved the thought that a listener could get that "perfect sound for them". It's one thing for me to enjoy what I have made for me but the thought that others can do the same and do it their way is what drives me.

it's really the question about what high end audio is and what it should be   

Interesting you should bring up the tube amp, as I'm considering a move back to solid state lately.  A more stable tuning situation with fewer variables would be a welcome thing, if I can get a solid state amp to a place that I find musically satisfying.  I've had some very nice sound from the tube amp occasionally, but boy I have a hard time keeping it there.  Experiments on the amplifier circuit don't help with the stability, but tubes deteriorate and need to be replaced even when I'm not experimenting.  Getting tubes in and out wrenches the printed circuit board and unsettles everything.  

Two nights ago, I had some of the best sound I've every had.  Resolved, dynamic, big halos around everything; it was the first time  one of my systems has ever sounded life-sized to me.  Last night I had to pull the speaker wires to take some measurements.  I put everything back, but tonight the sound is tipped up and I can't do anything to bring it down.  I will just have to wait and hope it settles out after a couple days.

On the plus side, I've had some very fine listening sessions with the TU-879S and the scary thing about it is that this thing is nowhere near optimized.  I have visions of a beautifully designed and laid out, tunable tube amp floating around in my head, but I'm no longer sure I want to spend the time or money to turn it into a reality.  If I knew that other people were interested in building it, it might nudge me in that direction.  The tube amp project was always more about what it could do for other people than what it might do for myself.

To tell the truth, I really got started with the tube amps because I went through a phase a year or two ago when I was looking for 'tube magic' because I hadn't been very happy with the sound I was getting.  The conclusion I've come to after all this time is that tubes aren't any more magic than solid state - the magic comes from getting the system up to a certain level and then enjoying the listening.  Whether you're running solid state or tubes, I think the real magic comes from knowing how to tune your system.

If anyone is interested in the tube amp design, please put a post on this thread saying so.  You should be aware that this will be a do-it-yourself project.  I can supply a design, a bill of materials, and the PCB files, but I have no desire to be in business soldering amplifiers together for people.

Hi Bill

Quote :

To tell the truth, I really got started with the tube amps because I went through a phase a year or two ago when I was looking for 'tube magic' because I hadn't been very happy with the sound I was getting.  The conclusion I've come to after all this time is that tubes aren't any more magic than solid state - the magic comes from getting the system up to a certain level and then enjoying the listening.  Whether you're running solid state or tubes, I think the real magic comes from knowing how to tune your system.

This is a mouthful, and for my own personal listening rings so true. I'm thrilled to be a part of tuning no matter how one gets there, and have found that for myself being a settle guy, I find it easier to go with solid state. At the same time there will be tubies and solid state guys, single driver and multi, digital and vinyl. All having their own merit with one thing in common. They all vibrate and have the potential to make that magic.

Hi Bill333

Congratulations on getting your system to produce some of the best musick you have ever had. About the downer you got from moving the cables is something that scares Sonic though....if my system went off simply if my cables touched each other or touched the side of an equipment case is not a nice prospect to contemplate.

Sonic

Hi Sonic,

Cables touching each other or the side of an equipment case is not what happened.  I wanted to test another amplifier in the tunable room while disrupting my current setup as little as possible, so I set up the amplifier with a spare Magnavox in front of my equipment platform and pulled the speaker wires off the tube amp and put them on the other amp.  When I got done, I put everything back, but that's a lot more disruption than just some bumping or touching.  I don't think my setup is any more sensitive than anyone else's tuned system.

Regards,

Bill

Bill responded while I was writing this but I want to post it anyway

   lets not make tuning into something scary, shall we.

You guys both have guitars right? Is that scary?

In reaching the level of great listening past the forever stuck sound of typical it takes a certain skill level as in anything else. The more Bill or any of us learns about the power tuning has we have the possiblity of making something sound like the orginal moment or a flavor of our own. I see Bill's adventure as I have said before "one of exploring" as much as it is listening. There are times he lets things be and other times Bill tries to bring a piece of audiophile/engineerism into the picture. I call these "his sideways" adventures. I personally think as he grows in the knowledge that he has something that will do anything, and making it more uniform with the full length joists and studs, he will find that he and the room/system will grow together as one. It's a relationship, and I think being so it shows our own personal ups and downs of doing things. As much as I feel it when Bill or anyone has a downer it's offset by the upside of going somewhere we have never been or in some cases an upside where no one has ever been. A moment of realism that takes our breath away, and one we never want to leave.

As good as I get my system sounding for me here, I know if I had what Bill has I would be runing circles around what I'm doing. When I listen here and hear things moving in a direction I wish I could grab my driver and make some adjustments to bring the sound home for me. Oh man would that be heaven, and I really do need one of these rooms again. I know my taste is different than Bill's and when I am visiting I have to be thinking about where he wants to go and not me, but.

When I play



on Bill's system and put on Atlantis followed by To susan on the west coast waiting, when I'm by myself I have gone places I never have with this recording and I sit there in a state of "this must be what heaven is like". True it is some amount of thinking and trying things, but when I uncover pieces of the recording at such amounts of clarity I'm one step away from tears.

I get my system sounding good, but it is not a tunable room, and when I am in one of these rooms and they speak to me, magic happens that as a music listener I can only express in words on this forum, but it will never be enough to come close to those moments. The stuning reality of being in a tunable room built to shape the sound is maybe for some too much, but I have seen Bill walk out of that room a new man more than once, and as for me it brings me back to the thought of perfect in the art of recording and playback.

I always tell Bill he doesn't realize how much he has grown as a listener, but I remember clearly seeing his travels and can testify this man has gone places he has never been before and is becoming the master of his sound.

Can you imagine what Bill comes home to every night? It blows my mind really. It is the ultimate musical instrument   Will he learn to play it? This is something only Bill will be able to answer, but I have to take my hat off to him for making the lastest moves, and the directions he is moving in. I say Wow!

Bill said

"Cables touching each other or the side of an equipment case is not what happened. I wanted to test another amplifier in the tunable room while disrupting my current setup as little as possible, so I set up the amplifier with a spare Magnavox in front of my equipment platform and pulled the speaker wires off the tube amp and put them on the other amp. When I got done, I put everything back, but that's a lot more disruption than just some bumping or touching. I don't think my setup is any more sensitive than anyone else's tuned system."

mg

I agree with this. Everyones system is this sensitive, but because Bill's system is able to reveal things at such a high level I think we are listening to clouds and mud and space that isn't 100% coming into focus whereas Bill's setup gives a far more defined perspective of changes. You can see clearly inside the clouds on Bill's system and when those clouds are lifted the detail is staggering, and many times things appear that you may never hear on other types of systems. Where we are listening to materials that we are dealing with, trying to make more musical, Bill's materials are designed to make musical notes. It's not like sitting in a musical instrument, it is a musical instrument by design.

I've been busy fiddling around with amplifiers lately, so here's a review of the Topping TP21.  Thanks to Billiam for the recommendation.


Initial Setup: The TP21 was given 85 hours of continuous break in on the home theater system without any critical listening.  After break in, I put it on the tunable room system driven by the Magnavox, connected through the Slagle autoformer volume controls.  The TP21 is in its chassis, sitting directly on the equipment platform.  The stock power supply is plugged into a nearby wall outlet.

Initial Listening: The tonality is pleasantly warm with an overall tubey character.  By tubey, I mean a pleasant sounding midrange, rolled off at both the highs and lows and lacking detail, definition and percussive impact.  The sound is also completely in the speakers.  It’s pleasant to listen to for a while, but I wouldn’t be happy with this lack of detail for very long.

Listening at 10 hours: Some of the looseness is settled out and I’m hearing more detail.  I’m hearing some forwardness in the treble that I wasn’t before.  Still in the speakers.

Listening at 20 hours: I left it playing at standard listening volume while I was away at work, and Wow! what a difference.  The sound has cleaned up to the point that it’s really listenable.  Not the last word in high fidelity, but the sound is no longer in the speakers and instrumental images are placed where they should be.  I’m also not hearing the brightness that I was before.

TUNING EXPERIMENT 1: : Take the TP21 out of its chassis.
Result: What’s that?  I hear someone knocking at the door!  Who could it be?  

Why it’s my good friends Detail, Definition, Bass Articulation and Percussive Impact.  Come right on in!  And who’s that behind them?  It’s 3D Holographic Soundstaging!  And his cousin Crystalline Clarity!

All joking aside, this is now serious high end sound.  In terms of pure sonic clarity, I don’t think I’ve ever heard its equal.  

TUNING EXPERIMENT 2: Cut the plastic tie downs off the electrolytic capacitors.
Result: Halos around images, already sizeable, grew to at least twice their former size.  I thought I was used to listening to big, but this is going to require an adjustment.  Whoa.