Hiend001's System

Hi Hiend001

Drewster is in on the 60/Block tuning as well. https://tuneland.forumotion.com/t90p15-drewster-s-room check it out.

Hi Michael,

The LTR blocks are settling very well    I had adjusted the PZC and Deluxe Floor Stands nearer to my chair. The soundstage becomes richer. The decay of the bass drum was full. The cymbal last longer. The imaging was great. The high frequency harmonics starting to fill the room. I can sense that my speakers are about going to disappear in my room for some music especially strong in high frequency instruments like harp and japanese koto   

But one thing that bother me, maybe you could give me some tips on tuning. I still sense a bit of the right speaker presence when I played "Amused To Death". The horse carriage coming from outer left wall few inches away on the left speaker across to right speaker where it should faded out few inches out of the right speaker towards the wall but it did not  

Amused to death, coming right up!

But for a quicky, look at your ceiling about 18" infront of your head. What is there?



 

Hi Michael,
 
Here you go, plan view:
 
                      i
                   --O--    Fan
                      i
 
-       ----                       ----   Sound Shutters
18"
-                      O  Head
 
On ceiling about 18" infront of my head is in-between Sound Shutters.

Can you pop an EchoTune up there real quick and play the same song?

thanks   

Hi Michael,

The volume increase. The mid bass a bit overwhelm which causes the guitar plucking and cymbal raining sound not so striking as before. Voice imaging not so precise as before. The halo of the instruments not detail and clarity enough.

But   Good News   
The whole soundstage lifted up above speakers and shape like a dome. All holes being filled up with halo. Good depth.

Now comes the Amused to Death sound track:
- At the very beginning track, voice talking can be heard beyond left wall.
- I heard wolf howling sound far away beyond left speaker wall.
- Heard horse voice far away from the left wall.
- Wind sound ambience very eerie around ceiling height in front of me like you are at the cemetery that kind of feeling.
- Heard breathing heavily sound in front slightly to left.
-  Horse carriage coming far far away beyond left wall coming towards me on my left like going to crush on me before it moved to front in an arc then towards to the right wall slowly disappeared.
- The motorcar zoom across from right to left very fast and loud.
- Cricket all over my head in dome shape.

I just pop an EchoTune up about 18" in front of my head and OMG the above effect appears right in front of me like watching a horror movie   

How to  
- Clear up the halo of the instruments for better detail and clarity.
- Bass drum decay attack clear up.
I believe once the above sonic resolve then below sonic problem will put in place by itself like:
- Striking guitar plucking sound.
- Tonality of the cymbal raining sound.
- Precise voice focus imaging.

Michael, I think I'm about there with your further tuning tips advise I will be getting 3D sound effect very soon (I could sense it as I had experienced it before)  

Eager waiting for your next tips  

Hi Hiend001

You are a good listener my friend   Here's what I would like you to try. Get some kraft paper, like what sonic has and partially cover some of your pillow fronts with it. Go slow and listen. I think you need a tad bit more barrier to the front of your RoomTune. The RT fabric is very transparent, but it is still fabric and as the on coming waves hit it sounds like they are still burning still a little too much. Try this and tell me if it cleans up a little.

Isn't that over head zone wild?  

always remember, your biggest open wall is your ceiling   it's a playground for staging

I have another trick when you are ready, try hanging the RT by two corners, letting it hang down instead of up flat against the ceiling. Barrier facing you. If this works in your room we have a whole new game to play   

Hi Michael,

Has letting it hang down RT by two corners and also partially cover over by kraft paper.
It has cleaned up and in fact it produced good harmonics on the guitar and piano notes   
I could hear strong inner impact of the drum, popping of the piano keys, cymbals splashing and plucking of guitar strings. Like I'm inside the instrument body.......BUT then feel something is not right   

It lacks of something which difficult to explain. It sounded weird. Maybe it reveals too much of inner impact of the instruments. I think is the spacious halo of the instruments notes not enough dynamic.
The music lacks of emotion. Feels like something is blocking the sparkling of the music   

Michael, could you hear my room   

Front Wall

Front Ceiling

Mid Ceiling  

Rear Ceiling

Back Wall

Hiend001

What you are saying sounds to me like the soundshutters might now be doing too much. What happens when you point them right at you, so you can only see the thin part of them?

But also look at the rods on the rack, are one or more of them slightly too tight?

One more thing, too much kraft paper can start to sound a tad bit lifeless in it's own way. If you have aluminum foil to add to the front of the paper on a couple of them the balance may straighten up.

Steady Heind001!

Sonic also had a week where a once-promising Tune got nowhere.

About the ET on your ceiling near your fan -- having ETs against the ceiling like this (even if there was a bit of space) in my system gave an unnatural midrange. Hanging them on edge was better with their reflective sides facing listening chair.

Sonic

Hi Sonic,

Forget about the Turntable thing. Get the Sherwood & Magnavox with proper tuning and guidance from Michael, I can tell you up front easily knock out conventional HiFi set cost over $100k   

Hi Michael,
I suspect you are coming from outer space beyond planet earth        Your tuning knowledge is incredible    From my posted pictures you could pinpoint the sonic problem   Your advise really right on target   

Abbey Road - Come Together
The very very low frequency halo fill up the whole room. With every single drum beat rich and full decay notes. Could feel like the drum beat energy effortlessly beating away and very powerful    And the bass guitar harmonic so clear.

Abbey Road - Something
Cymbal raining sound keep going and going and floating in the air for quite sometime   

Abbey Road - Sun King
The crickets and the frogs are so real like you are there in the pond   

Amused to Death
Can hear the horse carriage coming far far away from beyond left wall and also exit far far away to the beyond right wall   

Ray Obiedo -  "At First Glance" Iguana Album
The rich "UNIQUE WAVY HARMONICS" and spacious halo of the solo guitar playing was superb    Yes Michael, I finally found my "UNIQUE WAVY HARMONICS" sound again since I lost it so many years ago   

Love this contemporary jazz album recording with spacious halo and deep soundstage    Every instrument could hear the spacious halo and harmonic notes   

Oh My God....... the list go on and on and on.......     

This was what I have done:
- Adjusted sound shutters pointed at me.
- Have aluminum foil add on to the kraft paper on the front both corners RT and small window at the right side.

thanks my friend  

My pleasure   

And I believe your right also about the simple systems. I think Sonic would totally kick butt if he got the setup your talking about and some tunable speakers.

I use to bug him a little (sorry sonic) about it cause I knew it would be perfect for him but I think sometimes it's hard to let go and give ourselves over completely to something that the rest of the industry is almost scared about.

Some day I'll talk about my studio experiences and I think it will shed light on how I have had to softly tip toe around this industry even before I became a home audio designer. The things I use to do on some of the recordings made a lot of established studio engineers mad, and it caused me to give up my pursuing studio engineering work. As bold as I might seem I have been through the audio EGO ringer a few times. You would think it would be all about sound, but it's sadly about money and egos. If the industry was really listening they would be doing what you are. They'd also not be shutting down the creative genius of many music artist and listening guys (like myself) who could help them reach the next level. But that's a story I haven't wanted to unfold cause then I would not only have the audiophile industry on my back but also the Pro   , So I'll go on soft selling till someone somewhere wakes up and realizes this thing we have been doing for 60 years should be tunable. Then it will be another ego fight saying who discovered it   .

In the meantime it makes me very happy that you have found the truth and have learned how to use it.   

Hello Hiend001

If I knew where I could buy the Sherwood, I will be running out now to get one.

But the agent here (the JBL people) don't handle Sherwood anymore. Where did you get yours? Can PM me the shop and you'll see it wired up in Sonic's system for sure.

As for the Magnazox (Funai), no version of it is available here and those I found on the internet are for 120V which means a step down transformer.

Sonic

Hi Sonic,

I bought both Sherwood and the Magnavox at online amazon (About S$410 inclusive of shipping to S'pore). Yes both are connected to a step down transformer which I bought over at Sim Lim Tower.

Hi Hiend and Sonic

You can get the Sherwood 4109 which is the same amp with the addition of binding post and phono here in Thailand. It costs about 7,900 Thai Baht which is roughly $320 SGD. I can buy and ship it to you if you want. There's a place near where I live that sells them.

But no luck with the Funai. I called Funai Thailand and they said that the only product they offer now is the LED TV. But I wonder if the Funai is 220v since many cheap DVD players use switching power transformer which can handle 110-220v.

This is fantastic guys  

I'm really happy to see this happening. Harold and I are inching closer to the production of the products and so as they are ready we will break the news.

Men, the referencing that we will be able to do with the same systems will be something for the audio history books.

  

Hi Obb

Thank you very much for this offer!  I’ll come back to you within this week about this because I found that there is a new Sherwood agent for Singapore and Malaysia – a company doing professional public address systems. I found their website last evening.  They might be new since the Sherwood USA site still lists the JBL people as the agent.

I will call them tomorrow and see what I can get through them.  They don’t list the 4109 among their products but have the RX-772 which has the same specs as the 4109 (2-chn 105W into 8 ohms etc) but a few more features. Let’s see what they tell me.

If I cannot get a Sherwood in Singapore, Thailand is the next best place – 220 VAC power, and even better USA mains plugs.

Sonic will keep everyone in the loop on this.

Thank you again, Obb!

Sonic

Hello Hiend001

Appreciate your thoughts – and it is good that you challenged my preference for more analog sources over digital. The Tune will start to mature as we debate and exchange different views.

To Sonic’s ears, analog for its flaws simply sounds more like real music. Its high frequency extension puts 44.1 kHz digital to shame, while the bass is less generic sounding on LPs even though the extension cannot touch digital. Digital has absolute certainty of pitch which I like with piano recordings.

But the bigger reason behind Sonic’s expanding record (LP/SP) collection is because there is all this wonderful music that will never be remastered and made available on CD or hi-res by Big Business Record Labels because of the economic argument: how many copies will they sell, to whom? Will the release be profitable etc..should they put their resources on more modern and big name artistes who are a sure-fire success or remaster some unknown composer played by a long defunct ensemble recording in the 1950s? Will anyone want to buy a few tracks of Coleman Hawkins playing dance music released originally on 78s?

But Sonic says “me!”

I think the main reason for my growing record collection is the variety of music and artistes I am discovering and enjoying. This more than simply that LPs sound better than CDs.

I am grateful that Obb offered to help get me a Sherwood -- I also found the new agent for Singapore/Malaysia. If I go this route, Sonic will want the 220V models. I have used transformers before and I try to avoid them if I can. What did you buy? Did you have to tune it too?

Sonic

Hi Sonic,

I bought Soundtech Electronic converter AT-500 (500watt) at Sim Lim Tower for S$88. As usual cut cable ties, loosen screws and removed cover. Supported by ABB1X1 3 pcs followed by Brazilian Pine tuning board and rods.

Currently no luck in searching for Paradigm X-20 re-sale set. Difficulty finding any re-sale audio shop in S'pore. There were plenty in 1980s and 90s. As well as CD shop too, nowadays I purchase CD thru on-line Amazon   

Sonic.beaver wrote:

Hello Hiend001

Appreciate your thoughts – and it is good that you challenged my preference for more analog sources over digital. The Tune will start to mature as we debate and exchange different views.

To Sonic’s ears, analog for its flaws simply sounds more like real music.  Its high frequency extension puts 44.1 kHz digital to shame, while the bass is less generic sounding on LPs even though the extension cannot touch digital.  Digital has absolute certainty of pitch which I like with piano recordings.

But the bigger reason behind Sonic’s expanding record (LP/SP) collection is because there is all this wonderful music that will never be remastered and made available on CD or hi-res by Big Business Record Labels because of the economic argument: how many copies will they sell, to whom? Will the release be profitable etc..should they put their resources on more modern and big name artistes who are a sure-fire success or remaster some unknown composer played by a long defunct ensemble recording in the 1950s?  Will anyone want to buy a few tracks of Coleman Hawkins playing dance music released originally on 78s?

But Sonic says “me!”

I think the main reason for my growing record collection is the variety of music and artistes I am discovering and enjoying. This more than simply that LPs sound better than CDs.

I am grateful that Obb offered to help get me a Sherwood -- I also found the new agent for Singapore/Malaysia.  If I go this route, Sonic will want the 220V models.  I have used transformers before and I try to avoid them if I can.  What did you buy?  Did you have to tune it too?

Sonic

I don't want to start another analog verses digital debate Sonic, but I feel I must take some exception to your comments.
I've been at this hobby for four decades and have arrived at both a pretty fair analog and digital system.
My analog front end consists of a SME 30/12 turntable and Manley Steelhead phono stage not to mention a gaggle of some of the finest cartridges made today. The digital front end is much humbler with an Ayre C5XMP Evolution transport and an Audio Research DAC 8, both sources have dedicated power feed and conditioners of coarse. You'll find both sources have there own musical virtues, the analog rig is a touch warmer and smoother at the mid frequencies but digital definitely rules at the frequency extremes. I don't think I've heard a turntable at any price that has bass resolution and impact or the sparkling clarity in the upper range that a well setup and synergized digital source has.

That being said I respect everyones choice and preference.

Tim

Hi Tim

The bigger reason for my gravitating to analog is the variety of the music I love that are available on LPs that are not found on digital in any form. Truth to tell whatever difference there are between analog and digital doesn't get in the way of my enjoying the music -- once the music flows, Sonic doesn't think what the source is.

Sonic

Hello Sonic

That makes sense to me.

Interesting that vinyl is easy to get in your area. Here in Canada, it's very difficult to find retail stores that have it, and when you do it's pretty pricy. I usually only go out and try and find or order a record if I first purchase the CD and like it very much.

Have a great Day

Tim

Hi Michael,

I love the drum beats of Abbey Road   It so thrilling and so much excitement than those current drum beats    Why is it the drum beat sounds so much different from 1960s, 1980s and 2010s    Is it because of the engineering recording techniques evolves during the decades or because of the drum skin material they used 

Hi Hiend001

It's the engineering, and tech work, and the equipment.

It use to be that there were "studio brats" hanging around the studios playing with all the sounds. My nickname was "Natch" for natural, and I was a studio brat. Back when I learned how to do stuff the guys taught me how to make "fat" bass and drums. It wasn't sloppy, it just had a big body sound, nice and plump. The old 8 trak mixers and Studers had a great tone to them. Abbey Road was done when the band was not really speaking much to each other, and a lot of it was one or two guys coming in the studio and playing. Allan Parsons was an eighteen year old studio brat himself back then. Before he got the gig he was running tape, meaning he ran off tape copies of music for studios and radio and listeners. Most the stuff back when that recording was done for reel to reel tape. The sound of the tape back then had this beefy texture to it. The tape itself was heavier and the signal sounded more saturated. If you get tape from back then and play it, it has this real punchy round sound to it. Super warm sounding and clean without being squeaky. I like that old sound.

then you got the parts

People say that the new caps and resisters have better speed but there's something about the old stuff that had this round texture to it. You could hear the difference when the mixers went from the old style to newer more slimline. I gutted my mixers to try to get the old sound and even made a couple of them in tall hollow chassis. The faders were different back then to, a lot more nobs than slide faders. And the fader trays were deeper. The change in mixers really changed sound a lot. The more they became packed with features the worse the sound got, I think. Well I don't want to say worse, different. Well maybe worse   There was a lot more direct patching back then too.

Another difference was the studio brats. We spent a lot more time with the sound in the live room than the control room. As time went on you had guys doing more of the changes in the control room, and this is probably the biggest change that happened. guys would thow up big gobos of foam and fabric and fiberglass. That killed a lot of the room warmth. Live rooms started to have more glass and thicker, and started using plexiglass for drum kits and this flavored the drums completely different than the old style of drums in wood rooms.  If you look at Abbey Road now and Abbey Road then, two different worlds. You can really hear when someone now does a recording old school. Unfortunately you hardly ever see acousticians in the live room any more. Reason being scheduled time. It use to be that you would spend time with the musician and flavor the instrument, now they do most of this in the control room   

I try to like new recordings, but I'm pulled into the warmth of a good creative old school rock recording. Mics are better now for the most part. Well I should say some mics are. Some of the mics today are too lean for me. Their tight sounding but too lean. I like a fat sounding mic. I like sound fat period. To me it has more of a front to back feel.

Abbey Road is a masterpiece.

Very interesting response Michael.

I always wondered why the sound was so much different, always thought it had something to do with digital.

The home type real to real's of the day had a beefier texture as well. I wonder how those machines would stack up against todays modern turntables and quality CD players ?

I also found your comments interesting when it came to todays mic's and when one takes into account what should be better technology, we can only question why recording aren't far superior and uniformly so.

Tim